Talk:Peter Tekeli

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Untitled[edit]

This sentence is a little unclear: " Afterwards, with the rest of the Russian Army, he entered Romania. During the Battle of entered Romania in 1771 and fought in the Battle of Focşani and Zhurzhevo where he re-captured a Russian banner, for which he was promoted to a Major General and awarded with Order of St. Anna.".

The second sentence needs to be clarified somehow, I'm not quite sure what it is trying to say. Ostap 20:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

I will not tag the article as NPOV as it has no sources or academic publications to support numerous curious assertions there, like that Cossacks' military role was lost. How? Whose opinion? What is the relation of Pugachev uprising to Zaporozhian Host? So, who gave the order to destroy the Sich Catherine or Poteomkin? The whole story of Sich surrender and magnanimity and kindness of destroying Russians make want to weep of happiness. All these stories seems to be right out of a children's book, I am dying to see the sources of these fairy-tales. The author seems to have omitted some of the less pleasant events in the destruction of the Sich. Let's wait if this get corrected with academic sources. --Hillock65 (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well think about it, with Crimea gone, Zaporozhia became an enclave in Russia. Who was to fight against? Traditionally Cossacks always lived by acting as a border guard against a hostile state. For the Zaporozhians that role was anyone to the south. It is credited that Pugachev did intend to travel to the Sich, and the Zaporozhians did state that they would support him if he made it there. Potemkin ordered the Host to be disbanded, whilst Cathrine ordered the Sich (base) to be destroyed. --Kuban Cossack 21:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough want to tag it as POV, be my guest. --Kuban Cossack 21:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you mention that the host was destroyed on her oders? I didn't find it in the text? Want me to cite the manifesto? --Hillock65 (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Her manifesto was after all signed after the combat banners have been lowered, the leaders were in Petersburg and all the arms were handed over. The Host ceased to exist prior to the issuing of her manifesto. --Kuban Cossack 21:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with the article[edit]

  1. Unknown historians listed as sources and only in Russian. Who is V.Soloviev? What did he publish, what is his area of expertise? Are there any works in English since this is an English-language encyclopedia? Equally, who are Shambarov, Petrakov? There is not a single respected historian in that list. Are they credible, per WP:V, there is no way to prove.
  2. The history of destruciton of Zaporozhian Sich conveniently "omits" the Catherine's manifesto before the actual destruction.
  3. Host Starshynas were not sent to Petersburg as the author claims, but to Solovki, where Kalnyshevsky spent 26 years in a dugeon!
  4. Connection between Pugachev rebellion and destruction of the Zaporozhian Sich is yet to be established, I didn't find any references in academic literature.
  5. Destruction of the Danubian Sich needs to be sourced better as tales of it being shelled only after the Cossacks left is equally dubious. I find this article an exercise in POV-pushing rather than a serious approach to the subject. Unknown nationalist writers without any track-record of their publications are chosen to support the usual POV, it just migrated from Zaporozhian Cossacks, which is due to objection to one word is blocked, to here. It looks more like a provocation than an article. --Hillock65 (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. FYI there are millions of historians out there, how are you meant to know them all. Actually Petrakov is a famous 19th century Russian historian, who published a whole collection of biographies on Russian Generals. Also WP:V does not state that sources cannot be in Russian
  2. This article is about Tekeli not about Cathrine's manifesto
  3. Yes they were, they were tried there for their past crimes: Запорожские коммандование, хорошо зарекомендовавшие себя, получили российские офицерские чины: войсковые старшины Сидор Белый, Логвин Мощенский, полковники Иван Белый, Иван Высочин, Апанас Ковпак, Захарий Чепига, полковые старшины Павел Тимковский, Антон Головатый и др. Но троим - Калнышевскому, войсковому судье Павлу Головатому и писарю Глобе, Екатерина не простила прежних ошибок. Они были в Петербурге осуждены по обвинению в измене и разосланы в заточение по монастырям. Головатый - в Тобольский, Глоба - то ли в Туруханский, то ли в Белозерский, Калнышевский - в Соловецкий. Сохранились предания, что его содержали строго в цепях, не позволяя ни с кем общаться. Павел I ослабил режим заключения, а Александр I амнистировал узника. Но Калнышевский отказался покинуть Соловки, постригся в монахи и умер в 1803 г. в возврасте 112 лет. This is an extract which is cited from [1] here]. No claims here, out of the 15000 Host, only 3 were sentenced, yet you see that as an act of cruelty. Well all I have to say, is that if a person is forced to live in a dungeon, and in chains, I heavily doubt he will make it to an age which is presently double the male life expectancy of a free Ukrainian. Must have been one hell of a terrible dungeon there.
  4. I'll look into that in more detail. As you said I have refrences, but just to satisfy your fetish for them, I will double check. Although Ezhiki on your talk page did say: remember, having a source, even inferior, always beats having no sources at all
  5. What has Danubian Sich got to do with this and with Tekeli. He played no role in any affairs dealing with them. --Kuban Cossack 13:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tököly[edit]

His correct latin-written name is Peter Tököly. Everything else is a wrong relatinization of the cyrillic transscription. Following contemporary hungarian orthography of his lifetime, it would have to be written even with "th" as Thököly. Here is a German language source from Google Books, that mentions him as general-lieutenant of the 4th russian army division in the year 1784. --El bes (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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