Talk:Pope/Archive 5

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Should be Francis I

Should be Francis I not just Francis. Sources have used the roman numeral!213.120.148.60 (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

What was officially announced was "Francis". If and when there is a Pope Francis II, Pope Francis will become Pope Francis I. Esoglou (talk) 19:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This has already been extensively discussed on Talk:Pope Francis. The Vatican has clarified with news organisation that he is to be known as Francis and not Francis I. See also Vatican's own website where he is referred to as simply Francis. KTC (talk) 19:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite The Section ==Saint Peter and the origin of the office==

Catholics believe that this passage shows Jesus establishing his church on the shoulders of Simon son of John (Peter). Some authorities have previously asserted that the "rock" Jesus referred to was Jesus himself or was Peter's faith. The general scholarly consensus is that this account is accurate, and one modern scholar agrees with the straightforward interpretation that the "rock" Jesus refers to in this passage is Peter.[1]

This section is more than SLIGHTLY biased. It makes it sound like no one challenges this position and as though the CATHOLIC consensus is the only consensus on the topic. This is not the consensus of ANY PROTESTANTS, which are a much larger portion of the world than catholics. One citation does not cover the general consensus. Nor does one citation represent a stout and unified objection by a mass of people which does form a consensus. Kyle Mullaney

As a protestant who personally does not believe that Peter was ever in a position anything like Pope, I have no problem with an encyclopedia article about the Catholic Church office of Pope explaining the Catholic Church's position/belief about how said office was established. There are many articles about various aspects of different religious groups which explain that group's beliefs; it does not necessarily mean that other groups also subscribe to the same beliefs. I don't see that it needs to be changed. LarryJeff (talk) 15:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
First off, over half of all Christians are Catholic, so protestants are in no way any sort of larger portion of the world than Catholics. Second, there are numerous protestant scholars who do believe that the rock refers to Peter. In fact, I would say that they are the majority among even Protestants. But that's beside the point as this presents the Catholic belief as the Catholic belief. It begins with "Catholics believe...". Farsight001 (talk) 17:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
The point is that when the two greek words that denote a rock in this passage are used together it is clear that petros is the smaller and generally used as a smallish stone that could be held in the hand where as the other denotes a much larger stone. I have no problem with the statement that the catholic church claims that Peter is such and such so long as the proper exegesis is there to show that it is not FACT it is false interpretation and should not be called true or left as appearing to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle.Mullaney (talk • contribs) 15:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ O'Connor, Daniel William (27 November 2009), "Saint Peter the Apostle", Encyclopædia Britannica, the consensus of the great majority of scholars today.

I only recently learned - through web comments - that Catholics are convinced that when Jesus was telling Peter that He (Jesus) was making Peter the head of the church.....Jesus was making Peter the head of the Catholic church. I was stunned when I read the first comment that stated that (and used the Bible as confirmation). I found myself rereading that commenter's sentence twice just to make certain I had read it right -- I HAD !....that's when I was stunned, realizing yet ANOTHER lie the Catholic church has been telling its believers (I have read about a number of mis-information "facts" that the Catholic church apparently has its followers convinced of - that are also nowhere in the Bible. In fact, I question that the Catholics have their OWN version of the Bible......why can't they simply use the regular, "protestant" version ? makes me wonder what ELSE the Catholic church changed - in THEIR Bible version).

First, when Jesus was telling Peter that He (Jesus) was making Peter the head of the church - Jesus was NOT talking about the Catholic church (which was not even started until at least hundreds of years later).....Jesus was making Peter the head of the early Christian church (which was composed of Gentiles, a few Greeks, a few believing Hebrews - although most of the Hebrews rejected Jesus as the Messiah), which at that time existed ONLY in the Holy Land (during Jesus' ministry/Crucifixion/Resurrection, and shortly afterward, until Jesus' disciples (and other early Christians) started spreading the Good News (aka Gospel) outside of the Holy Land).

Second, there is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible saying Jesus was making Peter the head of the CATHOLIC church. The word "Catholic" is nowhere in the Bible, and as I have already noted, the early Christian church was NOT the start of the Catholic church. THAT particular "established" form of Christianity would not be even formed yet until much later, and AFTER the news of Jesus's life, Crucifixion and Resurrection spread eastward through Cappadocia and THEN went northwestward into post-Roman Italy.

Thus, I would suggest that the section subtitled "St. Peter and the origin of the pope" be changed to confirm the Jesus was NOT telling Peter that Peter was the head of the Catholic church, but that Jesus was telling Peter that he was to be the head of the early Christian (non-Catholic / PRE-Catholic) church).

My sources: any world history book, but especially, the New American Standard translation of the Bible (I use the NAV because it uses more contemporary language, but the message is not changed, and per my previous Senior Pastor, theologians have compared the various translations against the original Hebrew scrolls.....and the NAV is the CLOSEST to those scrolls. In fact, my pastor told us that the NAV matches almost EXACTLY "word-for-word" what the Hebrew scrolls say in each of the original biblical scrolls. That's proof enough for me, that I have the best translation.

Gail Noon, 03/16/2013 (69.224.46.135 (talk) 23:38, 16 March 2013 (UTC))

I think you are confusing the Wikipedia article's summary of Catholic doctrines with an essay on whether those doctrines fit someone's notion about truth. The purpose of this article is to summarize Catholic positions on the papacy as well as any disagreements among other major Christian religions, all properly verified with reliable sources. The article is not a place for you, me, or anyone to try to argue our personal beliefs about the papacy. There are lots of blogs and other forums where you might better spend your time espousing your personal beliefs. To understand how Wikipedia works, you might begin by reading WP:5P and continue clicking the blue links to various policy pages. Also please read WP:FORUM. Thank you. Cresix (talk) 23:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Question about Pope Francis as Incumbent

I'm just wondering is it appropriate to put Pope Francis as the incumbent? I mean yes he has been elected Pope and Habemus Papam has been declared but technically and legally speaking he hasn't taken office yet so wouldn't the office of the Pope still be Sede Vacante until his inaugural mass on March 19. I mean having him listed as incumbent would be like listing Barack Obama as President of the United States before he was officially sworn in. IMHO until such time as he is officially inaugurated I would like to suggest that he be listed as Francis I, Pope-Elect. What does everyone else think? TheGoofyGolfer (talk) 04:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Church law is different from United States law. He is Pope from the moment he accepted his election, even before he was announced publicly with "Habemus papam" (We have a pope), not "Habebimus papam" (We shall have a pope). Esoglou (talk) 08:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok, thanks I see your point. Beside that its just a moot point now anyway. TheGoofyGolfer (talk) 15:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

"The pope is the antichrist" - Martin Luther

"Protestant Reformers criticized the papacy as corrupt and characterized the pope as the antichrist...", whoa that's a bold statement to make without any source to back it up! But then, the writers of wikipedia are all highly objective and not at all biased, so I think it can be taken at face value. 151.15.41.235 (talk) 15:33, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, here you go: http://books.google.ca/books?id=hLxDnAMaUgQC&pg=PA141&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=antichrist&f=false. Martin Luther himself believed and taught that the papacy was itself the antichrist. It is in his writings and has been discussed in many other historical texts . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.136.53 (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)


Are they Catholic? No, they were heretics. I'm removing the "Antichrist" pictures as they dont belong here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.0.112.152 (talk) 20:43, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit requested

The last line of the lede says "The first explicit such occasion (after the proclamation), and so far the last, was the definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary in 1950." Wouldn't it be more concise and less confusing to just say "The only explicit such occasion after the proclamation was the definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary in 1950." 67.164.156.42 (talk) 22:35, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Done I consider this a minor edit. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit requested 2

The last line of the lede mentions the Assumption of Mary but doesn't link to it. Please change this to link to the appropriate article. Philapathy (talk) 05:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

 Done Thanks! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 05:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 May 2013

The first reference to Annuario Pontificio in the first line of Official list of titles should be italicized. Philapathy (talk) 10:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Done Esoglou (talk) 16:48, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Cranach woodcut caption

The recently added source says: "The slides below show Catholic art and the so called statue, supposedly of Peter that is located in St. Peter's at Rome. What we want you to notice is that the statue, and the art depicting the Christ has their two fingers extended. This sign has the same meaning as the two pillars which are, Apostolic Succession and Temporal Power!" The slides in fact show three fingers (including the thumb) extended. More reliable sources say that the three fingers extended upward symbolize faith in the Trinity (First Council of Nicaea) and the two fingers that are bent downward symbolize faith in the two natures of Christ (Council of Chalcedon). Examples of such sources are The Sign of the Cross and The Latin Gesture of Benediction. What was cut off the hand of dead Pope Formosus at the infamous Cadaver Synod were three fingers, not two, and the papal blessing with three fingers (including the thumb) is even mentioned in the Three Musketeers!

But in fact it is out of place to mention either two fingers or three in the caption of the Lucas Cranach woodcut (which does not show the thumb). The woodcut is about kissing the pope's foot, not about the number of fingers the pope is holding upward. Esoglou (talk) 08:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I noticed that too. I think it should be re-phrased to be about kissing the foot, not the # of fingers extended. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Addendum-- I see it's already revised. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Celestine IV

This list of shortest-reigning popes says that Pope Celestine IV died before consecration. So does his article. This is unclear though: what kind of consecration would he have had? He was already a bishop. He could not be a valid pope before being consecrated bishop and he already held a see as Cardinal-Bishop for several years before his election. The sources online don't say anything about consecration, just that he died after 17 days. Elizium23 (talk) 19:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The word "consecration" may be inappropriate, but someone becomes pope immediately when he accepts after his election. He was a valid pope. Cresix (talk) 23:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Except for someone who is not yet a bishop. The office of Pope is Bishop of Rome, and a man who accepts the election is not yet Pope until he is consecrated a bishop, which is to be done immediately. Elizium23 (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Correct, and as you noted, Celestine IV was a bishop at the time of his election, so he was pope immediately upon his acceptance. I changed the word "consecration" to "coronation". Cresix (talk) 00:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the change by Cresix, because Celestine IV undoubtedly died before being crowned. It might be better to omit entirely the comment "died before coronation/consecration". There are sources that say he did die before consecration, presumably taking it that, though he had been appointed Bishop of Sabina, he had never received episcopal ordination. Take this source and this and this and this. A perhaps more authoritative source says his death before consecration is doubtful. The remarks by editors above are about present-day canon law, which is slightly different even from pre-Vatican-II canon law, which gave the person elected pope full power of supreme jurisdiction (even if without full power of holy orders) from the moment he accepted his election (see canon 219 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law), with no mention of the present-day requirement that he be given immediate episcopal ordination before his election is announced. The canon law of 752, on the other hand, made consecration the beginning of the pontificate (see Pope-elect Stephen). What was canon law at the time Pope Celestine IV was elected? I don't know. And since there are two easy ways of dealing with the problem (Cresix's and simple omission of the comment), I think an effort to find out would not be worthwhile. Esoglou (talk) 08:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
That is a simple answer. Look at Stephen in 752, who died before his episcopal consecration. He is not considered a valid pope. The office of Pope has always been Bishop of Rome. Even before it was called Pope. That is not something that changes with the laws on the books. By the way, papal elections are governed by papal bull and apostolic constitution, which are not part of the Code of Canon Law. Elizium23 (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Not to belabor this issue, and I cannot claim to have significant expertise about these matters, but I have never had the impression that the details of papal election and enthronement can't be codifed in canon law. That's not to say that the current pope cannot make changes (as recent popes have), but is it true that there are no canon laws that address these issues? If the statements at Canon law (Catholic Church)#Canon Law "Corpus" are correct, apostolic constitutions are considered a part of canon law. Cresix (talk) 18:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

That is why I said they are not part of the Code. Esoglou's quote of the 1917 CIC does not reflect the whole of conclave and election legislation. Elizium23 (talk) 19:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Elizium23 deservedly has my full respect. I therefore greatly regret that on this question I must disagree with him. The norms of the Code of Canon Law on papal elections do govern papal elections until abrogated or modified by subsequent legislation, whether by apostolic constitution or in any other way. What the 1917 Code of Canon Law laid down as the moment when a person became pope held good until 1 October 1975. Far from being abrogated, it was, one could say, strengthened by Pope Pius XII in his apostolic constitution Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis: "101. Hoc consensu praestito intra terminum, quatenus opus sit, prudenti arbitrio Cardinalium per maiorem votorum numerum determinandum, illico electus est verus Papa, atque actu plenam absolutamque iurisdictionem supra totum orbem acquirit et exercere potest." This document cites the 1917 Code of Canon Law but, as I said, uses stronger language by stating that, on giving his consent, the person elected "immediately is true Pope and thereupon acquires and can exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world". In fact, Pius XII was only repeating in exactly the same words what his predecessor Pius X laid down in 1904 with the apostolic constitution Vacante Sede Apostolica: "88. Hoc consensu praestito intra terminum, quatenus opus sit, prudenti arbitrio Cardinalium per maiorem votorum numerum determinandum, illico electus est verus Papa, atque actu plenam absolutamque iurisdictionem supra totum orbem acquirit et exercere potest."
It was only on 1 October 1975 that Pope Paul VI changed the law, laying down in his apostolic constitution Romano Pontifici eligendo that (to quote an English version of the document), "88. After his acceptance, the person elected, if he be a bishop, is straightway bishop of Rome, true pope, and head of the episcopal college. He possesses and can exercise full and supreme power over the universal Church. If, however, the elected person does not possess the episcopal character, he is to be immediately ordained a bishop." Pope Paul VI's change of the law was incorporated into the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which is what now holds, since in this respect it has not yet been modified: "Can. 332 §1 The Roman Pontiff acquires full and supreme power in the Church when, together with episcopal consecration, he has been lawfully elected and has accepted the election. Accordingly, if he already has the episcopal character, he receives this power from the moment he accepts election to the supreme pontificate. If he does not have the episcopal character, he is immediately to be ordained Bishop."
What grounds are there for saying that the law governing papal elections at the time of Celestine IV, was the post-1975 law and not the pre-1975 law? Remember the statement of the Annuario Pontificio quoted in Pope-elect Stephen: "On the death of Zachary the Roman priest Stephen was elected; but, since he died four days later and before his consecratio, which according to the canon law of the time was the true commencement of his pontificate, his name is not registered in the Liber Pontificalis nor in other lists of the popes" (bolding added). The canon law at the time of Pope-elect Stephen was clearly different from pre-1975 canon law. Canon law concerning the moment of "true commencement of the pontificate" has in fact changed over the centuries, whether we like it or not. What was the law at the time of Celestine IV? Esoglou (talk) 20:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
A priest has informed me about the reality of pre-1975 Canon Law. Canon 219 says "Romanus Pontifex..." which is explicitly referring to a bishop and only a bishop: PONTIFF is a bishop; i.e. a Pontifical Mass is one celebrated by a bishop. So episcopal ordination has always been required for jurisdiction. The office is Bishop of Rome. It is not possible to hold this office, have jurisdiction, or any power without benefit of episcopal ordination. Elizium23 (talk) 06:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Under the previous rules promulgated by Pope St. Pius X in 1904, if the one elected was not a priest or bishop, he was to be "ordained" a priest and "consecrated" a bishop. Blessed (soon to be Saint) John Paul II specifically changed that to say that he is immediately ordained a bishop. There are 2 changes here:

  1. He eliminated the requirement to be "ordained a priest" before bishop
  2. He specifically says "ordained" a bishop, not "consecrated" a bishop.

Here is the 1904 Conclave rule 90. Quod si electus nondum sit Presbyter vel Episcopus, a Decano Collegii Cardinalium ordinabitur et consecrabitur http://www2.fiu.edu/~mirandas/vacante.htm

Elizium23 (talk) 06:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The 1917 canon says: "Romanus Pontifex, legitime electus, statim ab acceptata electione ..." If he is not yet a bishop, he is at that point Bishop-elect of Rome (Romanus Pontifex electus), not yet Bishop of Rome. Yet, although only a bishop-elect, he immediately (statim) has by divine law (iure divino), not by grant of any earthly authority, full power of supreme jurisdiction (plenam supremae iurisdictionis potestatem).
The Pius X document states that, immediately (illico) on giving his assent, the person elected (electus) is true Pope (verus Papa) and acquires and can exercise jurisdiction over the whole world (88). After this, his election is announced (89). After this, if he is not a priest or bishop, he is ordained and consecrated (90). And after this he is crowned (91).
(Before the Second Vatican Council, "consecration" was perhaps the only word used of becoming a bishop, doubtless because some claimed the episcopate was not a distinct order from the presbyterate: they spoke of "seven" holy orders: the four minor orders and the three major (subdiaconate, diaconate and priesthood). Today both "ordination" and "consecration" are used of becoming a bishop. Canon law made a strong distinction between the powers of orders and those of jurisdiction.) Esoglou (talk) 08:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
This is extraordinary information which flies in the face of my limited knowledge of Christian governance. Surely this would have been controversial enough in its time, to warrant reporting by reliable secondary sources on the fact that a layman, or even a mere priest could have ordinary, immediate and supreme jurisdiction over all the Christian faithful? Surely even some anti-Catholic sources would have commented that the Catholics raise non-clergy to incredible heights without even the benefit of ordination? We are doing our own WP:OR here interpreting Canon Law. I have been told by a priest and by a Franciscan major superior that my view is correct. But no WP:RS have been provided on either side. Elizium23 (talk) 17:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
I am sure you know that Wikipedia accepts citations of primary sources for "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". So both the 1904 Pius X document and the 1917-1973 Code are reliable sources for the statement that, under those rules, a man elected pope was immediately, on acceptance of his election, "true pope" and immediately had universal power of governance/jurisdiction. If these are not enough for you, will you accept the exact same statement in a book of the time or this less clear one? The persons you consulted and who may have been thinking of present canon law are not, in Wikipedia terms, reliable sources. You may find helpful the explanation given in the book I have cited here. It says that, as regards the power of holy orders, the pope has no more power than any titular bishop (in partibus infidelium was the expression of the time) who is governing no territory: the difference lies in the power of jurisdiction. Similarly, it says, a vicar apostolic who was not a bishop had the same governance powers for his territory as a bishop had for his own. Esoglou (talk) 20:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for those sources. That is satisfying. I am told that the reason for that legislation in 1904 was Papal conclave, 1903 - Pius X's own election. He wanted to make sure that a validly elected Pope was never again impeded or vetoed. Perhaps the law was not abolished in 1975 as we thought, but is merely implicit now? Elizium23 (talk) 02:47, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please check the facts as easily found in primary sources

The historic creeds uniformly define the "catholic church" as the "body of Christ" without ever mentioning Rome or the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is head of the Roman Catholic Church by historic and accurate definition, and no one disputes that. God bless him.

However, to state in a body of knowledge consulted by millions as fact that the Roman Bishop is head of "the catholic church" leaves over a billion Christians of the Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and many other denominations of the one holy catholic and apostolic church as non-Christians. By the creeds and the canon itself, you are either catholic or not a Christian as there is only one church. The case for this is so clear in history and theology I am simply not going to re-fight this battle.

The Bishop of Rome heads a massive, vibrant, and historic denomination, but he is not now nor was he ever head of the "catholic church." That title belongs only to Jesus Christ, head of the church, and the Author of our salvation or the whole thing is a fantasy.

I request the addition of "Roman" to the lead line in the interest of historic accuracy and objectivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.155.115 (talk) 02:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Catholic Church means Catholic Church, not a Church that is Catholic. Feel free to look at the hundreds of copies of this exact same discussion in the archives and the archives of Talk:Catholic Church. Achowat (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

infallibility

The introduction said that the assumption was the only explicitly infallible statement since Vatican I but there are others although the popes did not choose the exact language that pius xii did. Both Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis include statements made with such authority that, were they ever reversed, would seriously call into question any claims to Papal infallibility. This old "only immaculate conception and assumption were infallible" thing is a bit of false trivia. Ratzinger wrote on this in his capacity at CDF when people asked why JPII did not use "official" language in his clearly-intended-to-be-infallible statement in OS that only men can be priests. There is nothing official about pius xii's language. It was just pius xii's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qowieury (talk • contribs) 23:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

While some of these statements are inexact or perhaps I should say imprecise, I see no need to undo the related edit nor therefore any need to discuss them. Esoglou (talk) 07:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Name Heart

Why is there a <3 next to the pope's name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.48.171.116 (talk) 23:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Gradual Increase in Power

So this article makes no mention of the fact that the papacy grew in power and influence over centuries, rather than being "suddenly" powerful in 1871 as the article seems to indicate, and neither does it say anything about the Bishop of Rome competing with other bishoprics for power and influence until they were the only ones left.

Separately, I notice in the archives of talk that this article (in the opinion of some) seems to suffer from a lack of neutral point of view. Makes me wonder if anything can be done about that, since those that care about their own point of view seem to dominate. Just wanting to note this for the record. I don't expect anything to change because of this post. Hires an editor (talk) 02:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Antichrist Section

What the hell is this batshittery? Who's the "we," and why is this paragraph part of this article?

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12;`1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God", 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation—these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.229.150 (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

It is the aforementioned "Brief Statement" of the Lutheran churches which is discussed in the prior paragraph. However, it is WP:UNDUE emphasis on a relatively long quote and so I have removed it. Thanks for pointing it out. Elizium23 (talk) 22:45, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Extended discussion of the emergence of monoepiscopacy is not really relevant

There's a long section discussing how monoepiscopacy emerged, but it's not really relevant to the PAPACY as such. Maybe it needs to be shortened - or separated out as context with a separate heading? Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 10:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually this issue is very relevant, as the papacy appears to be the culmination of a tendency to centralize power. In the NT there are always plural bishops/elders in a city church, whenever the situation is explained. We see a tendency to develop monarchal bishop with Diotrephes of 3 John, who loved to have the pre-eminence. The papacy appears to the end of a chain of development: plural bishops > monarchal bishop > patriarch > pope, with the title of pope coming only hundreds of years after Pentecost. (EnochBethany (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2014 (UTC))

Deletion of Claim That Protestants Agree on a Focus on Peter

I deleted that statement, as it was supported only by a citation from a RCC source. It also is obviously false. Protestants don't agree on much of anything at all. They are split on traditional denominational lines as well as crosswise into Biblicists and evangelicals vs liberals/modernists. In a given denomination there will be drastic differences of opinion on practically everything also. Some want to bless men lying with men by a wedding ceremony. Others abominate it. Some have women in authority, others oppose it. Some believe the Bible is God's Word, others reject it. Some think Jesus is God, for others he is a good teacher. Protestants do not agree in any primacy of Peter. Some may, some may not. This varies across denominations and in denominations. Starting out a sentence claiming that "Most Protestants agree that" can be deleted without reading any further. And BTW, there are also big differences between those who are independent of all denominations, not being either Protestant or Catholic. And RCC persons likewise have big disagreements between each other. For example, the USA Supreme Court is Roman Catholic, and it endorses baby-murder. (EnochBethany (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2014 (UTC))

Hello?

In the section Monarchical episcopate, what does the information presented have to do with the caption? It does not mention monarchy. Wouldn't this better apply to a section re the Papal States? If it means to suggest some pre-eminence of status, than perhaps another phrase would be clearer. Mannanan51 (talk) 20:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


Correction for external links to Catholic.com

Dear Wiki Admin, In the write protected article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope Can you please fix the existing broken links in the External links https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#External_links

Broken links

The correct links are listed below

End of correction

Please also review my article which includes solid references to scriptures and vast compelling references to the early church all before 400AD.

http://www.4unity.net/the-bishop-of-rome/ Please include this in the external links page

With Thanks Daniel Skilling Dskilli (talk) 12:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: I corrected the existing links. I didn't bother to include your article, but if someone else wants to that's fine. Elizium23 (talk) 13:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Roman Catholic

Hi, It would be more according to reality if the word 'catholic' would be augmented and cited of mentioned as 'Roman catholic', because there is more than one catholic church. The pope presides the 'roman' type of catholicism. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.212.130.82 (talk) 11:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death already over the years. Catholic Church is the proper term because that is the organization's name and it is the largest, most well known organization with that name. Also, there are 23 rites of the Catholic Church in communion with the pope that are decidedly NOT "Roman" and take great offense to being called such.

Anglicized birth names

In many biographies of Popes, their birth names are Anglicized. This happens occasionally in modern works (1, 2, 3, 4, 5); and is nearly universal in works written before the First World War. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

Therefore I am adding the Anglicized birth name of every Pope as a footnote the first time their birth name is mentioned.

Bobby Martnen (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Bad references, irrelevant data, and linguistic confusion

This article needs serious revision. The word "Pope" is equivocated badly through out the article. At one point the word means "father" the next it means "the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church." When The word "bishop" is used, it is equivocated to mean "Pope (the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church)." The Early church had many different locations that had bishops. See Eusebius Pamphilus Ecclesiastical History, "The Bishops of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, mentioned by Eusebius" page 466 Hendrickson Publishers ISBN 978-1-56563-371-1.


There are numerous bad references in this article. Here are examples from section "Early Christianity (c. 30–325)":

Bad reference

"They also cite the importance accorded to the popes in the ecumenical councils, including the early ones."[44] Broken Link therefore no reference [citation needed]

Harrison, Brian W. (January 1991). "Papal Authority at the Earliest Councils". This Rock (Catholic Answers) 2 (1). Retrieved 22 May 2013.

Irrelevant data, says nothing about a Pope

In the early Christian era, Rome and a few other cities had claims on the leadership of worldwide Church. James the Just, known as "the brother of the Lord", served as head of the Jerusalem church, which is still honored as the "Mother Church" in Orthodox tradition. Alexandria had been a center of Jewish learning and became a center of Christian learning. Rome had a large congregation early in the apostolic period whom Paul the Apostle addressed in his Epistle to the Romans, and according to tradition Paul was martyred there.

No Citation, other church locations were of great importance also

During the 1st century of the Church (ca. 30–130), the Roman capital became recognized as a Christian center of exceptional importance. [citation needed]

No Citation. What other references?

However, there are only a few other references of that time to recognition of the authoritative primacy of the Roman See outside of Rome.[citation needed]

Irrelevant data

Clement I, at the end of the 1st century, wrote an epistle to the Church in Corinth intervening in a major dispute, and apologizing for not having taken action earlier.[45] [citation needed]

The following quote does not offer any data or evidence about a pope in early Christianity and is a biased source

In the Ravenna Document of 13 October 2007, theologians chosen by the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches stated: "41. Both sides agree...that Rome, as the Church that 'presides in love' according to the phrase of St Ignatius of Antioch,[46] occupied the first place in the taxis, and that the bishop of Rome was therefore the protos among the patriarchs. They disagree, however, on the interpretation of the historical evidence from this era regarding the prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome as protos, a matter that was already understood in different ways in the first millennium."

The following quote says nothing of a pope. Only the status of a church, therefore is irrelevant

In the late 2nd century AD, there were more manifestations of Roman authority over other churches. In 189, assertion of the primacy of the Church of Rome may be indicated in Irenaeus's Against Heresies (3:3:2): "With [the Church of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree...and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition."

The proof of a "Pope" in early church was never established. The following uses "Pope Victor I" as if we were convinced that there was a "Pope (the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church)" during this time. Also, there is no citation stating Victor I was called "Pope"

In AD 195, Pope Victor I, in what is seen as an exercise of Roman authority over other churches, excommunicated the Quartodecimans for observing Easter on the 14th of Nisan, the date of the Jewish Passover, a tradition handed down by John the Evangelist (see Easter controversy). Celebration of Easter on a Sunday, as insisted on by the pope, is the system that has prevailed (see computus).[citation needed]


This article in its entirety is biased towards a religious view point found in the Roman catholic church and not on generally accepted christian facts.

A long rant like this deserves non-anonymity - how about signing in? HammerFilmFan (talk) 22:11, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Christian facts? Christians have their own facts?? Do they also have their own independent, reliable sources, if not, then I think we'll be fine with the ones that we have. Achowat (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Protected status

This page has been semi-protected for 3 years now. Long enough, I think, time to end protection.

Not if it is continually under threat of vandalism, oh unsigned/undated anonymous IP. HammerFilmFan (talk) 00:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion - See also section, Portal changes

Greetings, Because this is a highly viewed article, I am asking for discussion towards consensus for the Portal changes described below.

  • The current portal in the SA section is: {{Portal|Christianity|Catholicism|Pope}}.
  • The Catholicism portal is repeated twice in the sidebar templates and in Navbox templates. The Pope portal is repeated twice in Navbox templates. I am proposing both be removed: per MOS/Layout, See_also_section which states that As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes.
  • In addition, portals for Biography and History can be added since this Pope article relates to Biography, and History since the beginnings of Christianity.
  • After these updates, the SA portal line would become: {{Portal|Biography|Christianity|History}}.

Starting this discussion prior to making any Portal updates is to prevent any misunderstandings as well as continuing this article's improvement. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Concerning the title of Patriarch

Since the pope as the bishop of Rome has been regarded as the one of the original patriarchs of the five ancient Apostolic Sees (Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria), I suggest that this section of "Patriarch of the West" be re-evaluated. In fact, the pope is still regarded as patriarch by the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Just a suggestion. JustTryintobeJust (talk) 20:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

"According to the Catholic Church"

"According to the Catholic Church, St Peter", "According to the Catholic Church, the 1st century" in the opening template are redundant and too much. The article would benefit from either a citation replacing "According to the Catholic Church" or removal of the phrase altogether. Mr. Spink talk★contribs 21:24, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Disagree. There is no citation that could replace "According to the Catholic Church" because there is no reliable source that verifies that the claims are absolute fact and not just the opinion of the CC. If you think there is, please cite it here. Leaving the phrase out would be immediately reverted for the same reason. Look at the history of this article and Catholic Church. The phrase has been repeatedly removed and restored. It is important to make a distinction between what the CC claims about the papacy and what is verifiable fact. I'm afraid we must live with the minor inconvenience of redundancy to ensure WP:NPOV. Sundayclose (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Are sedevacantists schismatics?

"Sedevacantists are considered to be schismatics by the mainstream Roman Catholic Church." Really? Any citations?

The statement was tagged as unsourced for 8 months, so I removed it. If someone can find a reliable source feel free to restore it. Sundayclose (talk) 02:16, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I've removed several blatantly unreliable sources from the section. Here's a source which indicates that one particular sedevacantist community was schismatic, but I don't think you're going to find any blanket statement that supports the quote in question, because the Church simply doesn't make statements or teachings like that. Elizium23 (talk) 03:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

"the Church simply doesn't make statements or teachings like that" unlike all none catholics are going burn in eternal torture forever? unless off course they are married to a catholic. --Thelawlollol (talk) 09:36, 5 July 2016 (UTC)--Thelawlollol (talk) 09:36, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Royalty and Nobility taskforce

Should Popes be included under the WikiProject for Royalty and Nobility, seeing as their monarchs of the Vatican? Just wondering. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Adoption of the title of Pope

For anyone interested, I would like to draw their attention to this discussion about a general issue in the context of pope articles. Feel free to comment there if you like.--Hubon (talk) 15:55, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2018

The quotation of Eusebius concerning Heraclas is wrong. τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον is from Historia Ecclesiastica, VII, 7,4 and not 7,7 as quoted in the footnote. Kyrieevlogison (talk) 11:36, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:04, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
done changed the 7 to a 4.Epiphyllumlover (talk) 05:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Eligibility

Currently, the article says that "any baptized Catholic male can be pope." That's not quite correct. For example, a widow who has remarried cannot be made a bishop, therefore, he cannot become pope. The correction should be something like, "any baptized Catholic male capable of becoming a bishop can be pope." Of course, then baptized, Catholic, and male become redundant. 2607:FCC8:B3C5:8400:DC20:1D7C:F3EE:33D1 (talk) 04:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Edit request

Hello, There is a mistake under Politics of the Holy See > Residence and jurisdiction. The current cardinal vicar is Angelo De Donatis, not Agostino Vallini. Cardinal Vallini resigned (age) in May 2017 and was replaced by Archbishop (now Cardinal) De Donatis.137.205.1.105 (talk) 20:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Position within the Church

I had to edit this paragraph to make it more coherent. It made declaratory statements such as "The New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy" which is out of step with the rest of the article, and obviously highly disputed. It seemed it was edited by someone who linked to fundamentalist websites and hasn't edited any other articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JD143726 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Missing information

The Catholic church is first and foremost the largest child-molestation organization in the world. I fail to see how any article about the Pope can omit an extensive discussion of the ongoing child-molestation scandals.

2601:184:497F:8D29:2F0C:3284:E9EC:46D7 (talk) 18:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Other articles include a section title such as "Controversies". While this topic is beyond my area of expertise, there are already WP articles with detail coverage. Encyclopedia articles are not "discussions" of a topic. I would like to see a new section added "Current controversies". It should be a short section with leading See also such as this.
See also: Catholic Church sexual abuse cases
as a referral to detail article. And add
For the church's response article, see Ecclesiastical response to Catholic sexual abuse cases.
. Lastly, a few summary sentences are all that is needed here at Pope article, imo. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Primacy

"The primacy of the Bishop of Rome is largely derived from his role as the apostolic successor to Saint Peter, to whom primacy was conferred by Jesus, giving him the Keys of Heaven and the powers of "binding and loosing", naming him as the "rock" upon which the church would be built." This occurs in the 2nd paragraph. Shouldn't there be an indication here that this is so according to Catholics, or the like? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.134.184 (talk) 07:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I dunno, it feels like that's a given, no? Like, how many times in this article do you want the phrase "According to the Catholic Church" to appear? "The pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas,[1] "father"),[2] also known as the supreme pontiff (from Latin pontifex maximus "greatest priest"), according to the Catholic Church, is the Bishop of Rome according to the Catholic Church and ex officio leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.[3] Since 1929, the pope has also been head of state of Vatican City,[4] a city-state enclaved within Rome, Italy. The current pope, according to the Catholic Church, is Francis, who was elected on 13 March 2013, succeeding Benedict XVI.[5] Achowat (talk) 01:44, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

As many times as on all pages christians type "but must scholar affirms jesus/bible/X was a historical reality" after any other information that delivers another view. For go look, there is not a single critism that is not edited in "but must scholars affirm the bible". Such entitelment by people that are not linking ANY academic work from people that actually went and learned the language to read. Since i dont see a single source then assumtions of Peters magical teleportation "giving of keys" YES, it should read"according to tradition originating"(atleast this) after the establishment of the curch in rome" since ancient writers did not think it was a sin to manipulate or edit text to reaffirm, like you are now, their own beliefs. Atleast be consistent since if you cant stop eiditing please

Hatnote

Please forgive me for faking a hatnote. The template would not accept {{Incumbent pope 2}} which is a utility template we use so that we don't need to update 8 million places when the see is vacant or new Popes are elected. Elizium23 (talk) 04:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Signature: PP.

I removed the statement that PP. stands for Papa Pontifex ("Pope and Pontiff"), since the sources given didn't back up this claim - they didn't even mention anything about the meaning of this abbreviation. On the contrary, the source immediately preceding this statement says that PP. stands for Papa (Latin for "Pope"). See here. Gugganij (talk) 20:45, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

πάππας, romanized: pappas,

Who ever needs to know what "πάππας" is, romanized? Beijing and Kyiv I could understand, as there might be some confusion. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:456:55C5:2A24:A2CA (talk) 23:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Shortest reigning Popes

Is there a reason as to why John Paul I is included in the list of shortest reigning popes if he only ranks as #11? If the longest reigning popes list includes only the top 10, then shouldn't the shortest reigning popes be only the top 10, and thus, John Paul I can be deleted? It seems that he's only on this list due to his recency. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2022

Manuelwilliemoya (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

While his office is called the papacy, the jurisdiction of the episcopal see is called the Holy See.[8] It is the Holy See that is the sovereign entity by international law headquartered in the distinctively independent Vatican City State, a city-state which forms a geographical enclave within the connurbation of Rome, established by the Lateran Treaty in 1929 between Italy and the Holy See to ensure its temporal and spiritual independence. The Holy See is recognized by its adherence at various levels to international organizations and by means of its diplomatic relations and political accords with many independent states.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. This is a copy/paste of the 2nd paragraph of the lede. What do you want changed? Cannolis (talk) 22:09, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Website

https://www.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html 82.170.17.19 (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Roman Catholic

Surely the Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church, not the Catholic. Protestants belong to the world-wide Catholic church. This assumption is often erroneously made. 90.253.3.52 (talk) 08:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

"Catholic" is somewhat vague considering the number of churches which claim catholicity, despite the colloquial unambiguity in the United States. I would support a shift to "Roman Catholic". (Update: 1/7/22) I still believe this, but submit to the broader consensus which has decided against it. Garnet Moss (talk) 21:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
The Church is known as the Catholic Church. That's what the article is named. The Pope is head of 24 Churches, and many Eastern Catholics do not identify as "Roman Catholic". Elizium23 (talk) 00:51, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough, that's clearly the consensus. I'd still dissent, and for example point out the double standard in comparison to, e.g., the Eastern Orthodox Church, but that goes way beyond the scope of this page. Withdrawn. Garnet Moss (talk) 22:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2023

A predecessor line should be added to the quick facts bar on the side of the page BlerStar95 (talk) 03:20, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Why? A quick perusal of other similar pages - Dalai Lama, President of the United States, do not use that line. Cannolis (talk) 03:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
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