Talk:Pyotr Bagration

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Move to Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration[edit]

We need to replace the orphaned stub Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration with this article, which to pity goes under wrong name as sugested by transliteration rules. DmitryKo 14:54, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done. violet/riga (t) 23:34, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, that was a mistake. It isn't a transliterated name. It was a translated one. — LlywelynII 22:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Russian pronunciation[edit]

In Russian, it would be pronounced bah-GRAH-tee-awn

Isn't it bah-grah-tee-AWN? RJ CG (talk) 17:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Not based on the IPA we currently have. Is it wrong? — LlywelynII 20:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Georgian[edit]

.... and in Georgian it would be BAGRATIONI. So what's your point ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.88.26 (talk) 10:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

"Bagration" is probably a greek root word[edit]

The word "Bagration" is probably a greek-root word, comes from "pangration" or in greek script "pagkration", from words "pan" means all and "kratos" means power. When, in greek, a noun makes an adjective, one form is the adding of an "i"* after the theme of the word (e.g. ouranos - ouranios οὐρανός οὐράνιος: heaven - heavenly). So, the word "pagkration" means "allmighty", something like the address "your majesty" for the western kings. The address "pangratie" (vocative case) is reasonable for the members of a royal family.

"Pangration" is also aν ancient sport like wrestling in which the fighter gives all his power to win.

(the other form is the adding of "ik" -latin: "ic", e.g. basis - basic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.197.214 (talk) 05:14, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Seems off-topic. The etymology of the dynastic name belongs at the dynasty's article, not here. — LlywelynII 21:03, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Russian name[edit]

Any reason why Russian names are written against any convention but in infinitive phonetically like Pyotr while he is Peter, and that name is not pronounced in Russian as Pyotr but... say in phrase like Petra Bagrationa (of Peter Bagration) as Peter or Pehter or Pieter, now are standards established by either ISO or national conventions like the US Library of Congress transliteration table, why would Wikipedia use its own, crazy way or mutilating Russian names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.25.192.142 (talk) 14:37, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Take it up with WP:MOSRUS and WP:RUS. I'm not going to wade through that mess, but if it supports Petr or Pëtr instead of Pyotr, by all means come back and apply for getting the page moved.
That said, his WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME is probably "Peter" rather than anything Russian at all. — LlywelynII 21:03, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Reference #3 in Vietnamese[edit]

Not being a reader of Vietnamese, I guess it was a misplacement. Could the original write re-check, correct or explain why such a reference ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.176.120.156 (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE 2014[edit]

So I've decided to add numerous sections including his decicive involvment in some of the campaigns, wars, battles that are listed. I would be more than pleased if any other wikipedians assisted me and all the others who participate, with more information about Bagration's involvments in any of the wars he participated, with reference, source, quotes etc, the style that's being used right now. TheMightyGeneral (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Lede[edit]

I note the tag saying that the lede may not be summarizing the article adequately. It is clear that the first section, titled 'Biography' does the job of a lede, and an edited-down version of this section ought to replace the current lede. I may attend to it, if no-one else does. Valetude (talk) 11:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll note that "prince" and "prominent general" does adequately summarize the article and the tag is inappropriate. You're more than welcome to flesh it out, though.
If you're planning an overhaul of the page, the place to start would be its misplacement. "Prince Peter Bagration" is twice as common as "Prince Pyotr Bagration" in scholarly sources and much more common elsewhere. No one actually uses "Petre Bagrationi" or "Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration" in English. — LlywelynII 21:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Move[edit]

In fact, yes, the numbers are so strong the name should just be moved back to where it started at Peter Bagration. — LlywelynII 22:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Genealogy[edit]

I'm not saying the Genealogy section was a bad idea or couldn't work, but it doesn't need to be a page-long table if the only information being provided is a single list of his ancestors. There's also no need for the generic "Kartli Branch" to start with the great-great-great-great-grandfathers when his importance to Levan and Levan's importance to him is minimal. If others would like to keep it, I suggest shortening it to three or four generations and fleshing out the rest of the family tree. If that's too large or unwieldy to fit here, add the details to the Kartli dynasty family tree page.

Table commented out below:  — LlywelynII 21:45, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion[edit]

Pending a scholarly expert adopting the page, annotating and curating the list, it's pretty worthless to just randomly list volumes about Bagration. Kindly restore these as they're used to source statements in the article:

  • General Bagration: Sbornik dokumentov i materialov, pod redaktsiei S.N. Golubova [General Bagration: Compilation of Documents and Materials], (Moscow, 1945)
  • Bagration v Dunaiskikh kniazhestvakh: Sbornik Dokumentov [Bagration in the Danubian Principalities: Compilation of Documents], (Chisineu, 1949)
  • Gribanov, Vladimir Konstantinovich (1979), Багратион в Петербурге [Bagration v Peterburge; Bagration in St. Petersburg], Leningrad: Lenizdat . (Russian)
  • Lomouri, T. (1946), Petre Bagrationi, Tbilisi . (Georgian)
  • Nakashidze, N. (1961), Hero of Borodino, Tbilisi . (Georgian)
  • Rostunov, Ivan Ivanovich (1957), Петр Иванович Багратион [Petr Ivanovich Bagration], Moscow: Voen . (Russian)
  • Tsintsadze, Zurab (1995), Багратион Военная деятельность Петра Ивановича Багратиона. 1782-1812 гг. [Bagration Voennaia Deiatelnost General Petra Ivanovicha Bagrationa, 1782–1812; Military Career of General Peter Ivanovich Bagration, 1782–1812], Moscow . (Russian)

 — LlywelynII 22:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)