Talk:Race and genetics

Anthropology High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Ethnic groups High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Human Genetic History (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human Genetic History, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Human Genetic HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Human Genetic HistoryHuman Genetic History articles

Sociology High‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully.

Arbitration Ruling on Race and Intelligence

The article Race and genetics, along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:

Pillars: Wikipedia articles must be neutral, verifiable and must not contain original research. Those founding principles (the Pillars) are not negotiable and cannot be overruled, even when apparent consensus to do so exists.
Original research: Wikipedia defines "original research" as "facts, allegations, ideas, and stories not already published by reliable sources". In particular, analyses or conclusions not already published in reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy are not appropriate for inclusion in articles.
Correct use of sources: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
Advocacy: Wikipedia strives towards a neutral point of view. Accordingly, it is not the appropriate venue for advocacy or for advancing a specific point of view. While coverage of all significant points of view is a necessary part of balancing an article, striving to give exposure to minority viewpoints that are not significantly expressed in reliable secondary sources is not.
Single purpose accounts: Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project.
Decorum: Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, or disruptive point-making, is prohibited.
Tag-team editing: Tag teams work in unison to push a particular point of view. Tag-team editing – to thwart core policies (neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research); or to evade procedural restrictions such as the three revert rule or to violate behavioural norms by edit warring; or to attempt to exert ownership over articles; or otherwise to prevent consensus prevailing – is prohibited.

If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review the full arbitration case page. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4	Archive 5	Archive 6

This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

Lewontin's Fallacy

The article begins with the false statement that race is a social construct. No biologist can subscribe to this, as biology has no use for social constructionism. Furthermore, the idea that people vary more within than between groups (Lewontin's fallacy) is now seen as irrelevant to the clustering of differences in different ethnicities. Very misleading article. 86.6.148.125 (talk) 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a strong consensus on the matter, both among scientists (see e.g. ^[1] ) and among the Wikipedia community. You're not likely to get anywhere trying to relitigate this. Generalrelative (talk) 20:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Using Population Descriptors in Genetics and Genomics Research: A New Framework for an Evolving Field (Consensus Study Report). National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2023. doi:10.17226/26902. ISBN 978-0-309-70065-8. PMID 36989389. In humans, race is a socially constructed designation, a misleading and harmful surrogate for population genetic differences, and has a long history of being incorrectly identified as the major genetic reason for phenotypic differences between groups.

Even sub-species and species fall under a weak form of social constructivism, as does practically any human-created taxonomy. Though perhaps the terminology of race as a social construct should be changed to terminology I have seen used more often in biology whitepages, such as that race is really just a way to say subspecies, and it is due to a conflation of social vs. biological race. The idea that humans cluster among Blumenbach races based on their perceived racial identity is true, but that depended upon the social classification of those races in the first place. Captchacatcher (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of Depth and proper Referencing

Much of this article make bombastic claims about race and only supports them with two or at times one reference. This is very misleading. 86.6.148.125 (talk) 19:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment in the above section, and feel free to add sources from the main article Race (human categorization). Generalrelative (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genetic variation between human individuals and boundaries between groups

"...with human genetic code being approximately 99.6%-99.9% identical between individuals and without clear boundaries between groups."

This seems misleading. The range 99.6%-99.9% may seem significant, but is indeed less so when one takes into account that human beings and chimpanzees similarly share upwards of 98% of their DNA.

Additionally, the second assertion is not entirely correct. It has been demonstrated multiple times through genetic principal component analysis that individuals from the same region, roughly corresponding to racial categories (e.g. "White" = European, "Black" = Sub-Saharan African, etc.), tend to form clusters. Here is one study observing this phenomenon https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20643205/ (see Figure 3). While a continuum can be observed (specifically along the PC 2 axis), it would be fatuous to conclude that no boundaries or categories can be determined. This would be akin to claiming that no meaningful distinction can be made between X-rays and ultraviolet rays since both sit along a continuum (i.e. the electromagnetic spectrum).

As such, I think the clause quoted above should be removed from the article. 129.137.96.1 (talk) 16:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, the statement is well sourced, and clearly WP:DUE since these are facts that are highlighted in the WP:BESTSOURCES. See e.g. the American Association of Biological Anthropologists' Statement on Race & Racism.

Race does not provide an accurate representation of human biological variation. It was never accurate in the past, and it remains inaccurate when referencing contemporary human populations. Humans are not divided biologically into distinct continental types or racial genetic clusters. Instead, the Western concept of race must be understood as a classification system that emerged from, and in support of, European colonialism, oppression, and discrimination. It thus does not have its roots in biological reality, but in policies of discrimination. Because of that, over the last five centuries, race has become a social reality that structures societies and how we experience the world. In this regard, race is real, as is racism, and both have real biological consequences.

Humans share the vast majority (99.9%) of our DNA in common. Individuals nevertheless exhibit substantial genetic and phenotypic variability. Genome/environment interactions, local and regional biological changes through time, and genetic exchange among populations have produced the biological diversity we see in humans today. Notably, variants are not distributed across our species in a manner that maps clearly onto socially-recognized racial groups. This is true even for aspects of human variation that we frequently emphasize in discussions of race, such as facial features, skin color and hair type. No group of people is, or ever has been, biologically homogeneous or “pure.” Furthermore, human populations are not — and never have been — biologically discrete, truly isolated, or fixed.

In humans, race is a socially constructed designation, a misleading and harmful surrogate for population genetic differences, and has a long history of being incorrectly identified as the major genetic reason for phenotypic differences between groups.

Generalrelative (talk) 23:31, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the 99.6%-99.9% is a misleading statistic. As mentioned before, humans also share 98%-99% of DNA with several primate species, making that statement irrelevant at best and statistical manipulation at worst.

Regardless, the cited article by the AABA is a statement of the AABA's position (with no supporting evidence included in the article, might I add), and if we're going to include it, we should clarify this (e.g. "According to the AABA..." etc.). Additionally, if we are going to include sources which support that position, we should include other sources from which other conclusions can be drawn, such as this study https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06957-x on genetic ancestry from the All of Us Research Program, which shows that individuals' self-identified race/ethnicity does in fact largely correspond to their genetic ancestry.

The AABA's position that no distinctions can be observed between groups is not an indisputable fact and should not be presented as such. 129.137.96.16 (talk) 12:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section: race and genetic ancestry

A recent edit of mine was reverted for enigmatic reasons. I simply added a WP:DUE clarifying statement containing a fact backed by two WP:BESTSOURCES explaining why some geneticists consider race useful when considering genetic background. This cannot be POV as it contains no original interpreting of data nor make any implications based on stated facts, and it cannot be original synthesis as both sources make the respective claims that race is a "nearly perfect indicator" of genetic background and that race and genetic background are "highly concordant." Both sources are claiming the same thing, thus it cannot be original synthesis. Additionally, the age of a study does not inherently render said study out-of-date unless the methods or analysis are out-of-date, which was not demonstrated. Frankly, the reverting of this edit could far more easily be classified as POV-pushing via poorly-justified deletionism. 129.137.96.20 (talk) 14:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No input; I've undone the revert. 129.137.96.19 (talk) 13:07, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[:8-1] Using Population Descriptors in Genetics and Genomics Research: A New Framework for an Evolving Field (Consensus Study Report). National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2023. doi:10.17226/26902. ISBN 978-0-309-70065-8. PMID 36989389. In humans, race is a socially constructed designation, a misleading and harmful surrogate for population genetic differences, and has a long history of being incorrectly identified as the major genetic reason for phenotypic differences between groups.

[1]