Talk:Raritan Valley Line

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station addresses[edit]

It is very difficult to find street addresses for those train stops. Does anyone mind if I post them if I manage to find them? It would be nice if someone local could just type them into the discussion page at the least. Thanks

  • Go for it. Mystache 22:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

There is a slot in the infobox for stations for the addressTlantanu (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Added NY Penn and Secaucus Junction as a not-yet-open part of the route map. Shouldn't violate WP:CRYSTAL as secondary sources to this point indicate that when the Trans Hudson Express tunnel is completed, the terminal of the Raritan Valley Line will definitely be extended to NY Penn. Mister Senseless (Speak - Contributions) 22:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Haven't they suspended all service to Hoboken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noepel (talkcontribs) 11:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Conclusive authority on prior terminus and engine power issues[edit]

The cited for this article refer to the locomotive engines terminating as late as the 1960s at Communipaw Terminal in Jersey City, New Jersey. However, other references point to the fact that there was an arrangement since 1918 for Pennsylvania Railroad locomotives to haul the passenger cars from Jersey City directly to Pennsylvania Station in New York, New York, bypassing the need for passengers to debark to buses to haul people on ferries to Manhattan. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=46013 Dogru144 (talk) 22:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

That was a wartime (WWI) arrangement that ended shortly thereafter. The Communipaw Terminal saw use until the 60. See the Communipaw Terminal article. oknazevad (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Where is your authority or reference on this arrangement ending after WWI? Numerous references to train schedules, such as the Black Diamond, give Lehigh Valley Railroad trains going on through into NY-Pennsylvania Station, into the 1950s.Dogru144 (talk) 01:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The Lehigh Valley Railroad was a separate railroad from the Jersey Central, one that was partly owned by the Pennsylvania, so their continued operation into New York Penn Station has no effect on the Jersey Central's continued use of their own terminal for decades further. The Jersey Central's commuter operations continued to use the Communipaw Terminal until the state-sponsored Aldene Plan rerouted those trains into Newark Penn Station, creating the modern Raritan Valley Line service pattern that persists to today. And that's the bottom line: the modern RVL is the successor to the Jersey Central mainline commuter service. Trains like the Black Diamond or Royal Blue really have no relevance to this article. Communipaw terminal was used until the 60s, and I have no clue why you are questioning it. Really, it makes no sense whatsoever. oknazevad (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I have found a reference that supports your point, that the LVRR's east-west line in New Jersey ran south, parallel to the CNJ's Raritan Valley line. It makes a roughly parallel --but sometimes diverging-- route to the former Central Railroad of New Jersey's Raritan Valley Line, running to the south of that line: 1941 system route map for Central Railroad of New Jersey, indicating routes of Lehigh Valley Railroad and other railroads. http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/HISTORICALMAPS/RAILROADS/Central_RR_1941.jpg Dogru144 (talk) 10:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
We still are in need of some good references as to why the diesel powered trains were able to go to New York Penn Station.Dogru144 (talk) 10:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, anyone with a current map would have been able to tell you that the Lehigh Line ran near parallel to but south of the RVL. Because it still does, and sees a lot of use as a freight line. See Lehigh Line (Conrail). As for the diesel trains to New York Penn. Firstly, they were more than likely steam, not yet diesel. More importantly, they didn't go to New York Penn, they were swapped out for electric locomotives before going in the tunnels. Engine changes like that used to be common in railroading. oknazevad (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, good maps are ones with company names labeled on the lines. They are not that easy to come by. Often companies omitted from including rivals' rail lines on their maps. The Black Diamond limited station stops in NJ make it difficult to readers today to plot its path.

And journalists today are not that precise when they refer to the end of passenger service. They simply refer to the last train and year, not which road was the carrier. Actually, the trains were most likely using diesel. The last LVRR run to NY was in 1961 (although its flagship Black Diamond ended service in 1959), when nearly all the passenger locomotives were diesel, not steam. Secondly, all the schedule/timetable references say that the trains were terminating in New York, not Jersey city. Given that the tunnels were constructed with electric, not steam or diesel locomotives in mind, there still needs some explanation. Your engine swap reference makes sense and is useful. However, wikipedia rules being what they are, we need a reference for the engine swap. This must have been done most speedily, as the schedules give short times between the Black Diamond's appearance at Jersey City and New York City.Dogru144 (talk) 10:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Tangential article discussion removed[edit]

The article just now had a tangential discussion on the LVRR in the context of the Aldene Connection. We still need an explanation as to why the engines stopped at Newark and did not go to Hoboken. Don't some of the North Jersey Coast trains do the same? Some of the trains originate from there and not only NY Penn Station. This tangential discussion would confuse readers as to why the LVRR is being discussed, when its passenger service ended in 1961, six years before the 1967 Aldene Connection. This discussion is not encyclopedic.Dogru144 (talk) 10:59, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

But it's not tangential. The segment between the Aldene Connector and the NEC was, at the time the plan was implemented in 1967, still the Lehigh Valley Railroad. Even if it had dropped passenger operations, they still owned the tracks until the line was folded into Conrail in 1976. There's nothing tangential at all about saying that the trains went onto LVRR tracks.
As for why they didn't go to Hoboken, at the time Hoboken was inaccessible from Newark Penn without going through yard tracks, unacceptable for regular passenger operations. Not to mention that at the time that would have meant involving a fourth railorad at a time when all tailroads were hurting. Even today there's strong limits on how many trains can get to Hoboken from Newark Penn because of the track configuration of the Kearny Connection. That's why only one early morning RVL train makes that move; it's even more difficult that RVL trains usually come in on track 5 at Newark Penn, and the connection comes off track 1.
Really, though, many of these questions are a level of detail inappropriate for an overview encyclopedia article.. What's there is accurate and sufficient to describe the current operations and some key background elements. oknazevad (talk) 03:08, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
These are useful points to the discussion. But one main point generating my impulse to call this tangential is that these issues are not related to this as a passenger service line. Now, granted there is an inherent focus in wikipedia to articles re passenger lines, and more so to presently active passenger lines. Your point are illuminating to the line more broadly, as itself in all its dimensions, freight and passenger. Yet as this article is re a passenger train, I contend that the article should stay with the passenger dynamic. Further, on a technical point, this is regarding a line that comes from the Central Railroad of New Jersey; the points about the Lehigh Valley Railroad are about another railroad. So, this is another reason to omit such discussions from the article. As to the Newark termination issues, isn't it the case, as documented in the references regarding the suggested restoration of service west of High Bridge, that the whole reason behind the dual diesel and electric locomotives being used.Dogru144 (talk) 06:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess I just don't see how describing the physical plant used by the passenger service is tangential; as not only is that common among Wikipedia articles already, but it informs the nature of the service pattern. We dont need to describe it down to the millimeter, but saying that the modern service pattern was created in 1967 by building a new connection to the Lehigh Valley main line, which already connected to the Pennsylvania main line. Which is essentially what the article already says.
And yes, conceivably one of the reasons for NJT buying the dual modes was to provide direct service to New York on the RVL, but that also depended on the building of extra tunnels and terminal tracks (i.e. Access to the Region's Core). That, of course, was cancelled. oknazevad (talk) 20:11, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
To cite the opening of the article, The Raritan Valley Line is a diesel-engine-powered commuter rail service operated by New Jersey Transit (NJT), originating out of Pennsylvania Station, located in Newark, New Jersey, with most trains terminating at the Raritan station, located in Raritan, New Jersey.

The article is 1) on a commuter line, 2) on a CNJ legacy line. It is not re freight issues; it is not re LVRR. If there is a need and interest in those matters, then those issues can be pursued in a separate article.Dogru144 (talk) 22:35, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I've restored the paragraph on the Aldene plan. Any article on this line that doesn't describe it is severely deficient. As it stood, the article spent more time on the route to Jersey City, where trains haven't gone in almost half a century, and didn;t at all describe how they actually get to Newark. That's absolutely unacceptable. oknazevad (talk) 16:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Access to the Region's Core (ARC) tunnel cancellation and dual mode locomotives[edit]

Re the ARC plan, why cannot dual mode locomotives be used in the existing tunnels? The trains would switch to electric power in some spot such as Newark Penn, then progress to Penn. Can you point to literature or sites that say that dual mode is conditional upon the ARC tunnel? Is not the purchase of the dual-mode locomotives going ahead, regardless of Gov. Christie's ARC cancellation?Dogru144 (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Simply put, there's not enough capacity in Penn Station for any more trains during rush hour. They'd have to eliminate some trains from other lines, which are also quite well-ridden, and already fully electric. Can't do that.
Seriously, though, this isn't the place for you to ask tons of questions like this. (WP:NOTAFORUM). There's other places on the internet for every question you may ever have. oknazevad (talk) 17:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually, there are far more speculative discussions right on the wikipedia article pages themselves, with plenty of "would", "could", "might" talk.Dogru144 (talk) 03:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Restored discussion of segment as part of historical service to eastern Pennsylvania[edit]

The segment was part of passenger service to eastern Pennsylvania. I have restored this discussion. Here is a map documenting CNJ coverage in conjunction with the Raritan Valley route. http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/HISTORICALMAPS/RAILROADS/Central_RR_1941.jpgDogru144 (talk) 10:59, 9 February 2013 (UTC) This segment was part of the CNJ's Lehigh-Susquehanna Division. It is documented on this 1930 timetable. http://timetables.m72express.com/scans/CNJ-LehighSusq1930TT.gif Dogru144 (talk) 11:11, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Without explanation the following route description was removed: From Newark southwest to Cranford the line follows the former right of way of the Lehigh Valley Railroad. Editors, please do not remove content without due cause or explanation on this page.Dogru144 (talk) 05:41, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Length issue[edit]

Other lines have their length in the info box. The length of this line is nowhere to be found.Dogru144 (talk) 03:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Proper name for Pennsylvania Station[edit]

Wikipedia uses official names for stations, not vernacular abbreviations. Therefore, I have reverted the station name for the Manhattan terminal.Dogru144 (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)