Talk:Russell T Davies/Archive 2
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Article title
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Russell T. Davies → Russell T Davies — Should this article be titled "Russell T. Davies" or "Russell T Davies"? Please discuss, and let's decide one way or the other. Skomorokh 19:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Speedy move back. The simple fact is that the T does not stand for anything (see Aldridge/Murray, Davies/Cook, any DW/Casanova/MAM/SC/B&R/QAF episode). Even if that were not the case, British English does not have periods after abbreviations. Sceptre (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it does. It depends from how Americanized any particular British speaker has become. Eric Partridge, in You Have A Point There noted that the original convention was that British English very much did have full stops after abbreviations, but also noted that British English was gradually assimilating the U.S. English convention of not doing so. Patridge welcomed it, but noted that it was very much an on-going process. Readers Digest's The Right Word At The Right Time, a few decades later, still reports the process as on-going, and that British English still uses full stops in abbreviations in a fair number of cases, and is also, thanks to this change, in a state of fairly widespread inconsistency.
Neither, of course, report any practice of abbreviating the name "T" to "T.", illogical nonsense that that would be. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 03:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it does. It depends from how Americanized any particular British speaker has become. Eric Partridge, in You Have A Point There noted that the original convention was that British English very much did have full stops after abbreviations, but also noted that British English was gradually assimilating the U.S. English convention of not doing so. Patridge welcomed it, but noted that it was very much an on-going process. Readers Digest's The Right Word At The Right Time, a few decades later, still reports the process as on-going, and that British English still uses full stops in abbreviations in a fair number of cases, and is also, thanks to this change, in a state of fairly widespread inconsistency.
- Speedy move Per above. — raekyT 19:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Move to no-period version, per this interview: "(he added the "T" to his name, no punctuation)".--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. That said silence implies a degree of consent. It's certainly been quiet *shrug*. I note that the title has been previously challenged and, though not hashed to a great extent, I see an apparent favour for the title "Russell T Davies".
- A user references a source about Mr Davies' name in the archived discussion. Given this is an article about a living person, it's absolutely imperative that we get things right. Forgive the hyperbole. Conventions do not matter. It's important to note the burden of evidence, too. Matthew (talk) 20:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - I understand why you want the move. However, the fact that the T does not stand for anything is not relevant, as far as I can see. Russell T Davies uses the initial to differentiate himself from other people with the name Russell Davies - just as John B. Jones, John M. Jones and John R. Jones used an initial to differentiate themselves from other people with the name John Jones. The naming convention is that middle initials are shown with a full stop and a space, and the purpose of this is to achieve consistency and avoid confusing users. Deb (talk) 21:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I should add, this is nothing to do with usage in the outside world - this is to do with usage within wikipedia. Deb (talk) 21:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see where your position is backed up in WP:NCP. It has nothing about periods must be used. If his name is legally "Russell T Davies" then it's not an abbreviation, so it SHOULD NOT use a period, likewise if his name isn't legally that, but he just goes by it, then it's a nickname and we'd still use it without a period. I think this is more personal preference on your end then actually backed up policy. If I'm wrong, pleas point out the relevant policy that applies to this case. — raekyT 21:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- His legal name, I think, is still Stephen Russell Davies. Aldridge/Murray goes into why he chose T: during the production of Dark Season, Colin Cant mentioned the Radio 4 presenter and asked "what do you want?". Davies floated the letters S and M (both without the period) before choosing T. The book is also consistent in spelling it without the period. Sceptre (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Then it's a "Nicknames, pen names, stage names, cognomens" and the policy is you go by how it's used in sources, book credits, etc... — raekyT 22:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- His legal name, I think, is still Stephen Russell Davies. Aldridge/Murray goes into why he chose T: during the production of Dark Season, Colin Cant mentioned the Radio 4 presenter and asked "what do you want?". Davies floated the letters S and M (both without the period) before choosing T. The book is also consistent in spelling it without the period. Sceptre (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see where your position is backed up in WP:NCP. It has nothing about periods must be used. If his name is legally "Russell T Davies" then it's not an abbreviation, so it SHOULD NOT use a period, likewise if his name isn't legally that, but he just goes by it, then it's a nickname and we'd still use it without a period. I think this is more personal preference on your end then actually backed up policy. If I'm wrong, pleas point out the relevant policy that applies to this case. — raekyT 21:36, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support In any publication, from the Guardian (link) to the Times (link) to the Radio Times (link), you will his name reported as "Russell T Davies". With regards to the points made above by Deb, I would suggest Wikipedia should follow reliable sources, rather than impose its own conventions regardless of common usage. City of Destruction (The Celestial City) 21:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- According to WP:NCP it does go by sources, not by some arbitrary policy that seems to be made up by Deb. — raekyT 21:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Speedy move back to original title. Blatant abuse of tools by Deb to move to his preferred version then to protect it that way. Jeni (talk) 01:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- QUESTION The "J" in Michael J. Fox doesn't stand for anything either, but it's got a period after it. So is the "T" missing a period because that's British standard usage? Or is this guy spelling it unconventionally? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Answer: It's standard British usage not to use a period (or a full stop as we call it). It's standard American usage to use one. In wikipedia we always use it in article titles, with a space after it, regardless of whether the subject is British. Deb (talk) 10:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, so if his name appears as "Russell T Davies", then it's merely standard British usage? If so, then it seems that all the "move back" voters are voting from ignorance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- From WP:Article names: "An article title on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the variety of English appropriate for that nation". Ergo move back to T without full stop. De728631 (talk) 12:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- No. As I wrote before, if there's no abbreviation going on in the first place, which is the case here (the "T" being the name in its entirety), British (and indeed anyone else's) conventions for abbreviations are simply irrelevant. Deb has got the British English conventions wrong. (As noted above, authorities on the matter state it to be a lot more complex and inconsistent than the blanket rule that Deb asserts. Such blanket rules are lies to children. The actual state of the language is not so simple.) But that's irrelevant here. There's no actual abbreviation occurring, so whether abbreviations warrant full stops or not is irrelevant. Uncle G (talk) 13:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If I'm wrong, then the wikipedia article on Full stop needs some amendment. Is it possible Partridge is out of date? After all, he has been dead for over 30 years. Deb (talk) 16:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It indeed does need amendment. Notice that it's folk-written, rather than derived from sources, and that there's been a query against the relevant portion for almost a month, now. That query is for good reason. I've pointed you to sources, including ones that bridge that 30 year gap, above. It really is a good idea to read and rely upon something other than a badly written unsourced Wikipedia article on the subject. The simplistic blanket rules really are not the actual state of the language nor what the experts say on the subject, and the only authority on the matter to have ever come close to any blanket rule on this subject, Follett, (a) is American, and (b) actually recommends that periods be used in abbreviations. Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting, but I take issue with you because, when I was taught to type, about 30 years ago, I was taught that we no longer use full stops after titles - whereas in school, 10 years earlier, I had been taught that we did. So there was a definite shift in practice and I think that shift is complete now. Although it would seem likely, to an outsider, that the Americans would have dropped the "period" before the Brits did, that is not in fact the case. Deb (talk) 15:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- It indeed does need amendment. Notice that it's folk-written, rather than derived from sources, and that there's been a query against the relevant portion for almost a month, now. That query is for good reason. I've pointed you to sources, including ones that bridge that 30 year gap, above. It really is a good idea to read and rely upon something other than a badly written unsourced Wikipedia article on the subject. The simplistic blanket rules really are not the actual state of the language nor what the experts say on the subject, and the only authority on the matter to have ever come close to any blanket rule on this subject, Follett, (a) is American, and (b) actually recommends that periods be used in abbreviations. Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- He adopted the "T" to distinguish his name from others named Russell Davies. Just as Michael J. Fox adopted the "J" to distinguish himself from another actor named "Michael Fox". Michael J. Fox includes a period even though his fake middle "name" is effectively just "J". How is Davies any different? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You're asking the wrong question. You should be going to M. Fox and asking him why he thought that he was abbreviating something. All authorities, American and British, that I know of agree that the periods occur in such circumstances to indicate abbreviation of a name to just its initial letter. This isn't some sort of distinct naming convention for people's names. And it's far more likely that M. Fox got the wrong idea, or wanted to give the impression that there was a name behind a purported abbreviation, than that authorities from Partridge and Onions through Kahn and Ilson to Horwill and Follett have things wrong. Uncle G (talk) 14:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, it has to do with sources and usage, Michael J. Fox uses a period, Russell T Davies does not use a period, theres plenty of sources to confirm usage, and policy states we go with how it's used in sources. — raekyT 13:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do other Britishers use a "full stop" when giving their name as first_name middle_initial last_name? Or do they omit it? Or is it individual choice? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- That question is answered right at the top of this discussion. Uncle G (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- My question is not answered, that I can see. Here's another example. Let's suppose that John Cleese were to conventionally sign his name with his middle initial, which actually does stand for a middle name. Would he be likely to write it "John M Cleese" or "John M. Cleese"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it's answered. Read the second sentence. Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- The second sentence says "Please discuss, and let's decide one way or the other." Try again. Maybe actually quote it to me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Fortunately, while you've been providing vague responses, others have now answered the question that I initially had. There's one more question, though: How do American sources refer to this guy, assuming they've ever heard of him? Because if they also omit the period, then that's the clincher. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- The second sentence says "Please discuss, and let's decide one way or the other." Try again. Maybe actually quote it to me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Of course it's answered. Read the second sentence. Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- My question is not answered, that I can see. Here's another example. Let's suppose that John Cleese were to conventionally sign his name with his middle initial, which actually does stand for a middle name. Would he be likely to write it "John M Cleese" or "John M. Cleese"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- That question is answered right at the top of this discussion. Uncle G (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do other Britishers use a "full stop" when giving their name as first_name middle_initial last_name? Or do they omit it? Or is it individual choice? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- To be honest, I blame Harry Truman. It seems to be standard in the US to do so, probably because American style guides have said there should be. Sceptre (talk) 14:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't blame Harry Truman for what his parents named him. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- If I'm wrong, then the wikipedia article on Full stop needs some amendment. Is it possible Partridge is out of date? After all, he has been dead for over 30 years. Deb (talk) 16:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- OK, so if his name appears as "Russell T Davies", then it's merely standard British usage? If so, then it seems that all the "move back" voters are voting from ignorance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Answer: It's standard British usage not to use a period (or a full stop as we call it). It's standard American usage to use one. In wikipedia we always use it in article titles, with a space after it, regardless of whether the subject is British. Deb (talk) 10:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Move back, per Sceptre.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Speedy move back. Quick check to the BAFTA Awards source shows that the "T" is officially without a full stop. We should be complying to that, regardless of whether or not British English operates differently. It's kind of like a will.i.am- and apl.de.ap-type case. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 15:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do Britishers with middle names commonly add the "full stop" when they sign with their middle initial? Or do they leave it out? Or is a matter of individual choice? I've asked this more than once already, and can't seem to get a straight answer. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Move back - if he doesn't use a period/full stop then neither should we. Protecting the page after moving it was an asinine move. Exxolon (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- What do Britishers normally do when referencing their middle initial? If they don't use full-stops, how do you know this guy is doing anything different with his middle initial than the average Britisher does? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It is vary rare for the British to abbreviate a name to use an initial in the middle it seen as an American thing, so in most cases the problem does not exist in normal British usage. MilborneOne (talk) 16:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do they normally spell out the middle name, or do they omit it? Are there any other examples of Britishers who have just a letter as a "middle name"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- How would current British media refer to someone such as T. S. Eliot? T S Eliot? Thomas Stearns Eliot? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- One of the sources on his page, [1] which is a UK paper, has "TS Eliot". — raekyT 16:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yet our article has him as T.S. So who wins? Wikipedia Manual of Style? Or British convention? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's supposed to go by how it's used in the majority of sources we have, and it looks like T.S. wins in that regard with the sources we have, many probably are not UK. I think in this article though the majority supports T and no dot. — raekyT 16:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do we know of any other biography articles where initials without periods are used in the titles? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- We have a lot of biographies, that would be difficult to figure out I think. Policy doesn't state it has to have a period, just that it should follow what the sources use. — raekyT 17:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to be disagreement over what the policy is, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, WP:MOS does indicate that sources should be followed, as you say. I still think, though, that many of the "move back" voters may be right but for the wrong reason. If the guy were American, it would likely be "T." The fact that British sources call him "T" instead is a red herring, because even if the T stood for something, it would still be "T" if presented as first / middle-initial / last. The one argument that makes the best sense is the one about it being a nickname. If that's really what it is, then it should be "T" rather than "T." even if he were American. Kind of like with the actors who call themselves "Ice-T" and "Mister T". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the relevant policy is WP:NCP. — raekyT 23:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to be disagreement over what the policy is, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, WP:MOS does indicate that sources should be followed, as you say. I still think, though, that many of the "move back" voters may be right but for the wrong reason. If the guy were American, it would likely be "T." The fact that British sources call him "T" instead is a red herring, because even if the T stood for something, it would still be "T" if presented as first / middle-initial / last. The one argument that makes the best sense is the one about it being a nickname. If that's really what it is, then it should be "T" rather than "T." even if he were American. Kind of like with the actors who call themselves "Ice-T" and "Mister T". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:18, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- We have a lot of biographies, that would be difficult to figure out I think. Policy doesn't state it has to have a period, just that it should follow what the sources use. — raekyT 17:02, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do we know of any other biography articles where initials without periods are used in the titles? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It's supposed to go by how it's used in the majority of sources we have, and it looks like T.S. wins in that regard with the sources we have, many probably are not UK. I think in this article though the majority supports T and no dot. — raekyT 16:46, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yet our article has him as T.S. So who wins? Wikipedia Manual of Style? Or British convention? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've referred to the Readers Digest book by Kahn et al. above. Go and read it. It even uses T. S. Eliot as an example. Your question is answered in sources, and the answer is not the blanket rule that you're clearly hunting for. I repeat: These blanket rules are lies-to-children. They aren't what authorities say, and they aren't the actual state of the language. Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- You've continually avoided actually answering my question, but fortunately others have tried to. It seems that even if his middle name were Theodore and he used his middle initial, it still would not have a period after it. So the "it's only a letter" is a bogus argument. The nickname argument, however, might stand to reason. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- To answer your question on British usage. I am a British English speaker. Using a pen and blank paper I would write my name as Firstname J. Lastname. My (British) bank and credit card companies write it as Firstname J Lastname. J. K. Rowling's name appears on the front of the British publications of her books as J.K. Rowling, the "K" being a contraction of Kathleen. An employee of the British passport office signed her letter to me as Firstname C Lastname. Language is subject to change. My opinion is that the rule in British language is to use a full stop/period, but I could be wrong. I hope this answers your question, Bugs (although, sadly, I doubt it). edit: forgot to sign. this by Trugster, see below. thanks Sinebot.Trugster | Talk 19:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, you have indeed answered it, by providing examples rather than generalistic arguments. Conclusion: It's inconsistent. So if this guy wants to give himself a middle name that consists of a single letter and no period, and if most sources call him that, then that almost wraps it up. The clincher would be to see how American sources call him, assuming they've ever heard of this guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- American sources are irrelevant. If his official name is Russell T Davies, then Russell T Davies should be the article name. All sources could call him Butterfingers if they want, but his official name is what should take priority. Period. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Your argument runs counter to the consensus argument here, namely that it's the sourcing that counts, not what he wants his so-called "official" name (which is a stage name) to be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going against consensus.You seemed to have been implying that American sources have a different type of authority than British sources, as if an American or British source had more of an authority than the other.If someone goes by the name Rubberduck, that should be the article name. Period. Sources offer a confirmation of that official name, hence why the consensus notes that sources predominantly indicate that there is no full stop after Davies' middle initial.Scratch the rest, WP:NCP says that the most popular name according to sources should be used in regards to middle and last names. My bad. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Your argument runs counter to the consensus argument here, namely that it's the sourcing that counts, not what he wants his so-called "official" name (which is a stage name) to be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- American sources are irrelevant. If his official name is Russell T Davies, then Russell T Davies should be the article name. All sources could call him Butterfingers if they want, but his official name is what should take priority. Period. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 21:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, you have indeed answered it, by providing examples rather than generalistic arguments. Conclusion: It's inconsistent. So if this guy wants to give himself a middle name that consists of a single letter and no period, and if most sources call him that, then that almost wraps it up. The clincher would be to see how American sources call him, assuming they've ever heard of this guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- To answer your question on British usage. I am a British English speaker. Using a pen and blank paper I would write my name as Firstname J. Lastname. My (British) bank and credit card companies write it as Firstname J Lastname. J. K. Rowling's name appears on the front of the British publications of her books as J.K. Rowling, the "K" being a contraction of Kathleen. An employee of the British passport office signed her letter to me as Firstname C Lastname. Language is subject to change. My opinion is that the rule in British language is to use a full stop/period, but I could be wrong. I hope this answers your question, Bugs (although, sadly, I doubt it). edit: forgot to sign. this by Trugster, see below. thanks Sinebot.Trugster | Talk 19:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- You've continually avoided actually answering my question, but fortunately others have tried to. It seems that even if his middle name were Theodore and he used his middle initial, it still would not have a period after it. So the "it's only a letter" is a bogus argument. The nickname argument, however, might stand to reason. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- One of the sources on his page, [1] which is a UK paper, has "TS Eliot". — raekyT 16:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- It is vary rare for the British to abbreviate a name to use an initial in the middle it seen as an American thing, so in most cases the problem does not exist in normal British usage. MilborneOne (talk) 16:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- What do Britishers normally do when referencing their middle initial? If they don't use full-stops, how do you know this guy is doing anything different with his middle initial than the average Britisher does? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Move I think in this case we should consider how the subject of BLP self-identifies. More importantly, I think the tried and tested policy of WP:RS is the place to look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trugster (talk • contribs) 19:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Move back, we should use the name that sources indicate as the correct one.... It's not up for us to decide which spelling rules should be applied to names and when. For similar spelling discussions see:
- --Enric Naval (talk) 19:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- British sources are going to use it without the period anyway, because that's conventional British usage. What do non-British sources do with his name? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Move back - Here[2] the New York Times spells it without the period. If it's "T" for them instead of "T." then who are we to argue? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- I really do not see why you are basing your decision solely on the fact that an American source complies to what a British source stated. Are you trying to convey that American sources are superior to British sources? Because in this case, it would be the polar opposite. Nevertheless, stick with Wikipedia policy and don't mix reliability with nationality. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk) 03:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.