Talk:Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis)

Share your thoughts to improve this article

Share your thoughts to improve this article. Neutralhappy (talk) 10:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 August 2024

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis) → Samastha (AP Faction) – no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC Spworld2 (talk) 04:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• comment A new organization called 'Samastha (AP Faction)' was formed in 1989 under the leadership of Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar, which was split off from the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama formed in 1926, commonly known as AP Samastha.[1][2][3] ~Spworld2 (talk) 04:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose because both Samasthas of Sunnis have exactly the same name: Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama. Moreover see this page which shows the Samastha of AP Sunnis is called Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama. Hence pages for both Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama of EK Sunnis and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama of AP Sunnis must have exactly the same name except two letters: "AP" and "EK". I think we must name both articles exactly the same except two letters of "AP" and "EK" in their respective titles like one of the following: 1) Samastha (EK Sunnis) and Samastha (AP Sunnis) 2) Samastha (AP faction) and Samastha (EK faction) 3) EK Sunnis' Samastha and AP Sunnis' Samastha 4) Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK Sunnis) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis) 5) Chelari Samastha and Kanthapuram Samastha 6) EK Sunnis' Samastha and AP Sunnis' Samastha, and so on. Besides the capital letter "F" in the currently suggested title Samastha (AP Faction) must be the small letter. We cannot name Chelari Samastha and Kanthapuram Samastha since they are exonyms, just like EK Samastha and AP Samastha are also exonyms. So we cannot use EK Samastha, AP Samastha, Chelari Samastha, or Kanthapuram Samastha in the title. We also rule out the possibility of naming the article using the term "of" since an admin has said so. In short, the title of the articles need contain two constituents one of which should be from: "Samastha", "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama", "Cherlari Samastha", "Kanthapuram Samastha"; and the other of which is to be from: "EK Sunnis", "AP Sunnis" "EK faction", and "AP faction". We cannot rearrange or remove any word in these 8 phrases like as shown here: "Samastha Chelari", "Faction", and "AP". In addition, the second constituent of the respective titles of the articles must contain either "AP" or "EK". Thus we have at least 16 options while other options are with punctuation marks and maybe symbols. I have no objection to changing the name of the article, but first change the name of the article Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction), which would be the best, or to the next best name Samastha (EK faction).Neutralhappy (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Samastha (AP Faction) was separated from the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama formed in 1926. Samastha (AP Faction) was formed in 1989 under the leadership of Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar

  ,But why are you Samastha (AP Faction) article editor repeating old year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama ??. Write the Samastha (AP Faction) you are editing, the year it was created, and its background and history.

  Do not add the same content to an existing article in Samastha (AP Faction)'

  If the history and content of the Samastha (AP Faction) you are writing is the same as that of the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, the article will not survive and will have to be merged into the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama

  Earlier many made the article as Samastha (AP Faction) and merged it with Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama ~~ Spworld2 (talk) 09:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  First move Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama of EK Sunnis to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) or a name with disambiguation. Both the pages for Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) need exactly the same name except two letters of "AP" and "EK" to avoid confusion; this is especially true since both claim to be the real Samastha and several independent sources refer to both of them exactly with the same name: Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama.

  The following are sources which show there is a need for disambiguation of titles of article on both Samasthas. Furthermore, articles on respective Samasthas need to be treated equally in terms its time of formation, history until the split in 1989.

  • The Hindu calls the Samastha of AP Sunnis "Samastha Kerala Jamiyyathul Ulama". It uses the phrase "the Sunni faction" twice.
  • Dool news calls Samastha of AP Sunnis a Samastha by saying "A P Samastha".
  • Mathrubhumi calls Samastha of AP Sunnis a Samastha by saying "Ap Samastha".
  • The Times of India also calls Samastha of AP Sunnis a "Samastha". Moreover it uses term "Samastha Kerala Jem Iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)"
  • Scroll.in says there are two different Samasthas. It uses the terms "faction" and "factions" 21 times.
  • OnManorama.com calls the Samastha of AP Sunnis a Samastha and mentions "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" without using any disambiguating term.
  • News 18 says there are two Samasthas. It used the term "AP faction" 3 times and "EK faction" 6 times.
  • Arab News calls Samastha of AP Sunnis a "Samastha"
  • The New Indian Express calls Samastha of AP Sunnis "Samastha Kerala Je-iyyathul Ulama" without disambiguating.
  • Manoramanews.com Manorama News says there are two Samasthas. It uses the term "വിഭാഗം", which could be translated as "faction", 4 times.
  • Thejas calls Kanthapuram's Samatha is Samastha Kerala Je-iyyathul Ulama without using a qualier in the headline, but with a qualifier—(കാന്തപുരം വിഭാഗം), which could mean (Kanthapuram faction)—in the following part.
  • Kerala Kaumudi calls AP Sunnis' Samastha "Samastha Kerala Je-iyyathul Ulama" three times, in Malayalam, but none with a disambiguating term.
  • Mediaone calls the organisation of AP Sunnis "Samastha AP group" in Malayalam. and calls it by the full name: "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" in Malayalam. This is by adding the neutral term, "Kanthapuram vibagham", (which means Kanthapuram group or Kanthapuram faction), after the full name.
  • The website of Madhyamam says Kanthapuram is general secretary of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, without disambiguating.
  • The website of Reporter TV also uses the "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" with the qualifier of AP faction.
  • The Economic Times calls the organisation of AP Sunnis "Samastha Kerala Jem-Iyyathul Ulama". Note economictimes.indiatimes.com shown in the page of The Economic Times leads to economictimes.com, which is part of the URL of the said article. Note that it uses "A P Kanthapuram Aboobacker Musliyar faction" to make the distinction.
  • The Print calls the organisation of AP Sunnis "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" without any disambiguating term. Ponmala Abdul Qadir Musliyar belongs to Samastha of AP Sunnis.

  Neutralhappy (talk) 19:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama of EK should be moved to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). There are several sources that use the term "EK faction". Besides, read the following:

  1) Mathrubhumi says "The EK faction of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama".

  3) onmanorama.com says "the Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)".

  4) Hindustan Times says "the EK faction of the Samastha Kerala Jamiyyathul Ulama (SAMASTHA)".

  5) The New Indian Express says "EK faction of Samastha Kerala Jemiyyathul Ulama".

  6) Scroll.in uses the term "EK faction" 9 times.

  7) The Hindu uses the term EK faction.

  8) News18 says "the EK faction of the Sunnis - the Samastha Kerala Jemiyyathul Ulema" and uses the term "EK faction" 5 times.

  9) The News Minute uses the term "EK faction". Neutralhappy (talk) 09:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Mathrubhumi says "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)". Neutralhappy (talk) 09:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, founded in 1926 was, according to several sources (The New Indian Express, The Hindu, Scroll.in, onmanorama.com, News18, Deccan Chronicle, 7—Dool News [Wikipedia page], 8— Southlive, 9—Samakalika Malayalam [Wikipedia page]), split in 1989 into two organisations exactly with the same name the organisation had before the split. Looking at the term split linguistically, it means all the new ones formed after the split have a shared history, thus a common time of formation. Thus both Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) are to be treated in Wikipedia equally in terms of their name, their time of formation, founder and the rest of the matter pior to the split.

  Two Samasthas of EK and EK faction Sunnis claim theirs is the real Samastha. That means both do not agree the other one is real. There is a source which says the AP faction claims theirs is the real Samastha. Perod Abdurahman Saqafi, secretary of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), says in a Malayalam YouTube video that the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction. Note that according to the AP faction, Samastha was not split but reorganised in 1989. Neutralhappy (talk) 16:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Sources that say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989

  The following sources say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration, which means Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989 when the split happened.

  • The Hindu says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centenary. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • onmanorama.com says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The New Indian Express says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The website of MediaOne says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The Times of India says about the inauguration of 99th foundation day of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Manorama News says about beginning of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • PressReader says about Kanthapuram claiming to be the original one, and about justifying with the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Mathrubhumi says about the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Madhyamam says about the promulgation of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • malabarnews.com says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • ETV Bharat says about the declaration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus ETV Bharat like several others have accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) to celebrate the centennial.
  • Kasargod Vartha says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.

  Neutralhappy (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  This edit changed "also known as Samastha" to "also known as Samastha (AP Faction)", the change this move request is seeking for, without any supporting citations, though the use of "Samastha" to refer to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was supported by 5 sources at the time of this edit. Neutralhappy (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support : WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, AP Samastha, formed in 1989, separated from the Old Samastha, under the leadership of Indian Grand Mufti Kanthapuram, is generally known as Samastha (AP Faction) /AP SAMASTHA- Ptmlp (talk) 05:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  Independent sources do not say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was founded in 1989, as I have shown above. Independent news sources use the terms "Samastha" and "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" without qualification to refer to either AP Samastha or EK Samastha. Such sources leave to the readers the duty to identify which Samastha it refers to, from the context. So your use of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not valid. The population of people who support AP Samastha and EK Samastha are also apparently nearly the same. Furthermore, the number of madrasas under AP and EK Samasthas are also almost the same: it is over 10800 for EK Samastha as of August 2024, while it is over 10400 in India as of June 2023 for AP Samastha. Neutralhappy (talk) 00:51, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

How to deal with the year of formation in pages for both AP and EK Samasthas

@Spworld2, discuss here first. Both groups claim to be the real Samastha. Moreover, both have exactly the same name. In addition, both have the same history before the reorganisation in 1989. So both should be treated equally on the pages of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Neutralhappy (talk) 09:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama formed in 1926 under the leadership of AP Aboobacker Musliyar in 1986 based on some ideas, a new organization was formed and its name is ap Samastha (AP Faction), old Samasta still exists as it is, this article is the same, this article you are editing is formed in 1986, its function is very different from old Samasta, Write history and background since 1986.

• The old Samasta was separated and the new one was formed in 1986, so add the year of formation of Samastha (AP Faction) as 1986.
• If the same history of old Samasta (Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) is included in new Samastha (AP Faction), merge this article with (old Samastha) and write Samastha (AP Faction) activity as section in it
• Now people reading the article you are editing will mistake it as old because you are adding the same information in it, avoid such misunderstanding.
• You write history of Samastha (AP Faction) since 1986 and remove others

Spworld2 (talk) 13:07, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, founded in 1926 was, according to several sources (The New Indian Express, The Hindu, Scroll.in, onmanorama.com, News18, Deccan Chronicle, 7—Dool News [Wikipedia page], 8— Southlive, 9—Samakalika Malayalam [Wikipedia page]), split in 1989 into two organisations exactly with the same name the organisation had before the split. Looking at the term split linguistically, it means all the new ones formed after the split have a shared history, thus a common time of formation. Thus both Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) are to be treated in Wikipedia equally in terms of their name, their time of formation, founder and the rest of the matter pior to the split.

Two Samasthas of EK and EK faction Sunnis claim theirs is the real Samastha. That means both do not agree the other one is real. There is a source which says the AP faction claims theirs is the real Samastha. Perod Abdurahman Saqafi, secretary of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), says in a Malayalam YouTube video that the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction. Note that according to the AP faction, Samastha was not split but reorganised in 1989. Neutralhappy (talk) 16:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

You need to cite an independent source presenting the account of a reliable witness. You have not shown even one source for your claims, in your previous comments or replies. Neutralhappy (talk) 18:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Sources that say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989

The following sources say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration, which means Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989 when the split happened.

• The Hindu says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centenary. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• onmanorama.com says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The New Indian Express says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The website of MediaOne says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• The Times of India says about the inauguration of 99th foundation day of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Manorama News says about beginning of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• PressReader says about Kanthapuram claiming to be the original one, and about justifying with the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Mathrubhumi says about the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• Madhyamam says about the promulgation of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• malabarnews.com says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
• ETV Bharat says about the declaration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus ETV Bharat like several others have accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) to celebrate the centennial.
• Kasargod Vartha says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.

Neutralhappy (talk) 12:28, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The year is misspelled, 1986 is correct. It has been corrected Spworld2 (talk) 05:23, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)