Talk:Simsim

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This entire article has weak sources

This entire article has extremely weak sources and is heavily edited by an IP account.

Sources: 1. Ангуни, Амин: Государственность Народа Нохчий 2. Тесаев, З.А.: Симсим 3. Tesayev Z.A.: Исторические личности Чечни

These sources speak about different theories and hypothesis which even the sources themselves admit have no basis in real historical research. Their sources all come from local folk tales and hearsays. The "Государственность Народа Нохчий" source especially is nothing more but random assumptions and text which is unsourced. I propose we return this article to my original version which was more neutral. Goddard2000 (talk) 01:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In general the quality of scholarship produced in the Russian Caucasus is very uneven with some high-quality works and lots of stuff that proves the greatness of some people long ago when they inevitably dominated the whole Caucasus. In Kadyrov's Chechnya especially, doubting the historical greatness will not win you many friends.

Having said that, I'm not an expert and I don't know whether the books cited are in fact reliable or not. It is a fact though that they are not quoted faithfully. To take one example from the Background subsection, Tesayev in his articles says that the events are described "согласно историческим преданиям" which can be translated as "according to historical tradition" or even "according to legends." The same events are described as facts in wikivoice in the article. Alaexis_¿question? 06:21, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this has less to do with politics in Kadyrov's Chechnya and more to do with random youth trying to aggrandize their own history by taking sources out of context. The works of Amin Tesaev can be appreciated from the perspective of folktale studies but to use them as facts on an encyclopedia is wrong. This is why in my original edits on these pages i always referred to these folktales as just that, folktales that were recorded during this date or that. In my opinion this source: "Государственность Народа Нохчий" should be removed from Wikipedia entirely since it is not scientific at all and i say this as an ethnic Chechen. Goddard2000 (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Let's wait a few days and if there are no responses here restore the pre-IP version. If they continue to add unreliably sourced content without engaging in the discussion here, we can request a partial protection. Alaexis_¿question? 08:28, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable, i restored the article to pre-IP version in 6th April but it was undone. I think we can restore that version since it is the most neutral one in my opinion. Goddard2000 (talk) 18:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Alaexis Should we revert back to the original version now? Goddard2000 (talk) 13:51, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sure, I think that was more than enough time to voice objections. Alaexis_¿question? 14:26, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, your claims are quite hypocritical. The original version also used the source Симсим from Тесаев and Муртазалиев, it is unfair to claim that my use of them is not "trustable" And just "heresies", although I do admit, that the book from Ангуни is, in a lot of times, based on folktale, but, with no bias, im certain that in regards to Simsim very little amount of folktale is used. Not to mention the fact that I put a second and sometimes even a third source to support it. Симсим is an authoritative source, it uses historical manuscripts and archeological finds. Also, I hope that we can agree that this state was never called "Simsir" except maybe once from Jaimoukha. In my opinion he shouldn't be cited alone, as he also contradicts historical records, the society section is also completly fiction. He claims that Simsim was located on the modern-day Gudermes and Nozhai-Yurt districts, meanwhile Zafarnama mention the strategically important "Gates of Sim-Sim", which researchers identify with the Darial Gorge. He also said that it "Flourished between the 12th and 14th century", although it is pretty much a fact that Simsim was established in the last half of the 14th century, as neither Yuan-Shi nor Georgian chronicles mention such a state. In my opinion, we should restore my version, but of course, I also think that my version contained some mistakes, which I'm of course willing to remove. Iask1 (talk) 22:20, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The version that you suggest we should restore is full of folktales, i haven't even gotten to the other articles about "Khasi I/II" and others related to Simsim because i am very busy with work right now. In my opinion those should also either be deleted or remade. The original version used Tesaev and Murtazaliev sources, so what? i specified that they were folk tales and did not delve much into them. Meanwhile the newer versions used these sources as facts and basically copy pasted the information onto this article. Goddard2000 (talk) 12:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed proposal, moving per WP:RMNOMIN. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Simsir → Simsim
Simsim → Simsim (disambiguation)

– The name Simsir is mentioned solely by Amjad Jaimoukha (not really a RS) and this source, reliability of which, I don't see. The name Simsim is not only mentioned by more authors (doctors of historical sciences like Yu. D. Anchabadze,^[1] V. A. Schnirelmann,^[2] V. A. Kuznetsov^[3]), but also in the two Persian chronicles (which serve as the primary sources) Zafarnama by Shami and Zafarnama by Yazdi. If needed I can provide more RS which mention the region/state as Simsim.

References

^ Анчабадзе, Ю. Д.; et al. (2007). Минц, Л. М.; et al. (eds.). Народы мира: энциклопедия [Peoples of the World: Encyclopedia] (in Russian). Москва: ОЛМА Медиа Групп. p. 380. ISBN 978-5-373-01057-3.
^ Шнирельман, В. А. (2006). Калинин, И. (ed.). Быть Аланами: Интеллектуалы и политика на Северном Кавказе в XX веке [To be Alans: Intellectuals and Politics in the North Caucasus in the 20th Century] (in Russian). Москва: Новое Литературное Обозрение. p. 164. ISBN 5-86793-406-3. ISSN 1813-6583.
^ Кузнецов, В. А. (1992). Майсурадзе, Л. Ш. (ed.). Очерки истории алан [Essays on the history of the Alans] (in Russian) (2nd ed.). Владикавказ: Ир. p. 348.

WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 09:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 12:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Simsim is currently a page with non-redirecting content. It cannot be the destination for a move unless it is also moved. As such, I have added a disposition for it to Simsim (disambiguation). SilverLocust 💬 11:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmattulahi wa barakatuh @Goddard2000 and @Muqale. What do you think of this request? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Waaleykum Salam, i'm not sure which version was mentioned the most to be honest, i guess i have no issue with the change if the state was indeed just mentioned as Simsim in Zafarnama. Goddard2000 (talk) 12:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Chechnya has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protected edit request on 12 December 2023

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I think there's some misspelling or formatting errors in the first paragraph — for example, was "located" meant instead of "localized"? This is what I propose changing it to:

'''Simsim''' ({{lang-fa|سیمسیم}}) was a Chechen kingdom in the [[North Caucasus]] during the [[Middle Ages]], existing in the 14th century. It was predominately located roughly in Eastern [[Chechnya]] ([[History of Chechnya#Ichkeria|Ichkeria]]), with some parts also connecting to {{ill|Kumyk Plain|ru|Кумыкская плоскость}}. Simsim is also located in both Chechnya and [[Ingushetia]]. Its name may have been derived from the Chechen village of {{ill|lt=Simsir|Simsir (Village)|ru|Симсир (Чечня)}}. However, according to folklore the King [[Gayur-khan]] was chosen as the leader of all Chechens by the Mehk-Khel (National Council). In its later years it allied itself with the [[Golden Horde]] before [[Timurid invasion of Simsim|being destroyed in 1395]] by [[Timurlane]], which was recorded in [[Zafarnama (Shami biography)|''Zafarnama'']] by [[Nizam al-Din Shami]] and the [[Zafarnama (Yazdi biography)|''Zafarnama'']] by [[Sharaf ad-Din Ali Yazdi]].

LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 21:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not a error, "localized" as in sources place Simsim in those different region. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 24 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the infobox, please remove Azerbaijan and Georgia, added in this edit by Swalors and in apparent conflict with the intro. I have checked the article history and find only mention of an alliance with Georgia. (My attention was drawn by its being lowercase in the infobox, [[Georgia (country)|georgia]], but looking at the history, the two additions are better reverted and there can be discussion here. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done Izno (talk) 18:35, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

Earlier versions of this article listed Orthodox Christianity in the infobox: last removed on 1 October, leaving Sunni Islam and Vainakh religion. In April, Islam was listed as the official religion, Christianity and Vainakh religion as folk religions. I came here from Timurid invasion of Simsim, where I removed mention of churches because the Vainakh religion was the only religion specified in the text there. This article currently states that Gayur Khan (Khour Ela, Khour II) was Christian and that his son was converted by Timur to Islam, but otherwise does not specify religion. There should be mention of the religions in the Society section, but I can't suggest an edit because I can't read the sources. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Анчабадзе, Ю. Д.; et al. (2007). Минц, Л. М.; et al. (eds.). Народы мира: энциклопедия [Peoples of the World: Encyclopedia] (in Russian). Москва: ОЛМА Медиа Групп. p. 380. ISBN 978-5-373-01057-3.

[2] Шнирельман, В. А. (2006). Калинин, И. (ed.). Быть Аланами: Интеллектуалы и политика на Северном Кавказе в XX веке [To be Alans: Intellectuals and Politics in the North Caucasus in the 20th Century] (in Russian). Москва: Новое Литературное Обозрение. p. 164. ISBN 5-86793-406-3. ISSN 1813-6583.

[3] Кузнецов, В. А. (1992). Майсурадзе, Л. Ш. (ed.). Очерки истории алан [Essays on the history of the Alans] (in Russian) (2nd ed.). Владикавказ: Ир. p. 348.

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