Talk:Survival Records

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Discussion moved here from User_talk:Graywalls#Survival_Records[edit]

Hi Graywalls, Just curious as to why you replaced Survival Records with a redirect...? Nearly all the albums that were released by the label have their own Wikipedia pages. It's an important part of jazz history - see the sources that were cited in the article (the Wilmer book, DownBeat magazine, etc.) Thanks, Helen Puffer Thwait (talk) 18:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Helen Puffer Thwait:, I looked at the sources. There was one source that was maybe sigcov, but others didn't seem like passing. Things like blogs don't count. So, I didn't feel it met WP:NCORP. Do you feel differently? Graywalls (talk) 08:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response. I see that there was some discussion related to this topic a while back.

WP:NCORP states: "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education... smaller organizations and their products can be notable, just as individuals can be notable." Given Rashied Ali's status as an important jazz drummer, I was looking at Survival Records in terms of its artistic value, rather than its status as a corporate entity.

Regarding the sources: Given that "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention" (WP:SIGCOV), I would think that discussion in the Val Wilmer book, which has been through multiple printings over the years, and articles in major jazz publications on the topic of the label (DownBeat ("The Durability Of Drummer Rashied Ali's Survival Records") and JazzTimes ("Survival Records Returns with New Jazz Releases")) would count. I don't see any citations that refer to blogs. (Perfect Sound Forever, despite its appearance, has been around for about 30 years, and seems to have a serious editorial policy [[1]].) Please advise.

Shall I open a discussion and seek the opinion of other editors?

Helen Puffer Thwait (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Helen Puffer Thwait:, this kind of discussion really should be taking place on the article's talk page, because individual users' pages isn't where others go to look discussions about the article. Rashield Ali's importance as a Jazz drummer would be a different matter, because, per WP:INHERITORG, this is not a major determining factor in notability. As for blogs, please see WP:BLOGS WP:SPS. Graywalls (talk) 18:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls:, I have moved the discussion here. It's still not clear to me which source you're describing as a blog. Thanks, Helen Puffer Thwait (talk) 22:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that PSF should be considered a WP:RS, & this is not the only article to cite it. FWIW, the PSF website precedes blogging by several years. - Gyrofrog (talk) 00:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the label was founded by Ali and largely released his records, I could see a reasonable case for a merge here, being as the content is encyclopedic but the two articles could fairly be seen as covering the same topic. However, independent coverage of the label in publications like DownBeat, JazzTimes, and PSF suggest that a standalone article is defensible. In any case, a redirect without merging is the worst possible outcome. Chubbles (talk) 01:55, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Either way, per WP:NOTCATALOG the list of releases should be purged. Graywalls (talk) 07:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with having a list of something if the list is encyclopedic. A discography is not always inherently a trivial catalog; when providing information on musicians and labels, it's entirely reasonable - published jazz discography books often have detailed listings of recordings. Chubbles (talk) 14:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls Which of the six criteria outlined in WP:NOTCATALOG do you think this label discography meets? Mach61 15:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mach61:, Cleary #6. The releases is nothing but a catalog. @Masem:, any opinion on how this should/should not be addressed? I don't believe exhaustive product listing of a minor record label is encyclopedic yet I don't believe it warrants a separate "list of products by some tiny company" either. @Chubbles:, the thing is that I don't think it's encyclopedic. Graywalls (talk) 16:25, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The list of albums is not "a resource for conducting business". The mere fact that these albums were once offered for sale does not make this an unencyclopedic product catalog, and NOTCATALOG 6 explicitly states that lists of creative works are permitted. We have articles on all but one of the items in the list (and listing the last would be permitted per WP:CSC point 3); removing the list makes accessing the label's creative output much more difficult, in addition to robbing the article of most of its encyclopedic value. The list deserves to be here. Chubbles (talk) 05:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]