Talk:The Beatles in India/Archive 1

Archive 1

Deletion not necessary

Actually, there should be an article just on their visit to India, of which this can be the basis, given its role both in the Beatles' endlessly interesting story arc and in the band's eventual estrangement and break-up. If anything, this article needs expansion (as does the paltry The Studio Years article), not deletion.PJtP (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Accurate?

The name of the song is Sexy Sadie. There are references that say Lennon wrote the song about Maharishi. But does the cited source actually say the name of the song was Maharishi?

• "Maharishi" (renamed "Sexy Sadie"), "Child of Nature" (reworked as "Jealous Guy" for John Lennon's Imagine) and "Dear Prudence" (named for Prudence Farrow).[9]-- — Kbob • Talk • 19:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

There are many sources that say the original title was "Maharishi". I'll add one to make that clear.   Will Beback  talk  19:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Songs

"Indian Rope Trick" was apparently never released, but exists in a bootleg album. It mentions the SRM and is written in a Beach Boys style. I haven't yet found a reliable source for it, but it's mentioned on many blogs.   Will Beback  talk  21:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Another song that may have been written at Rishikesh is "India". It's another bootleg item that's on Youtube.   Will Beback  talk  23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It's possible the Turner book mentions these and other material relevant to this article; I got it from the library once and I remember it mentions Mary Jane, so it's not just the hits:

• {{cite book |last=Turner |first=Steve |authorlink=Steve Turner (writer) |title=A Hard Day's Write: The Stories Behind Every Beatles Song |edition=3rd |publisher=Harper Paperbacks |location=New York |year=2005 |isbn=0-06-084409-4 }}

Might be in your local library. PL290 (talk) 07:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Super. I've ordered it. It might be able to references some of the other songs too.   Will Beback  talk  07:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I have that book. It only mentions released songs, and only newer editions mention those from Live at the BBC and Anthology. It doesn't mention any songs only available on bootlegs. McLerristarr (talk) 07:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

GA

This article is close to a GA rating.--andreasegde (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope nobody minds, but I'll work on this article to get it to a GA review.--andreasegde (talk) 20:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Please do. I have more sources to add but there's no need to hold off the GA review for that.   Will Beback  talk  22:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It'll take a few weeks for it to be reviewed, but after looking at it again tomorrow, I think it's time...--andreasegde (talk) 18:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It's looking really, really good.--andreasegde (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Starr, McCartney, Lennon & Harrison

As these sections have very little in them, shouldn't they be added to the article?--andreasegde (talk) 09:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I had created them as sections to keep the narrative clear. Perhaps non-section headings would work as well. In other words something like this:

Starr

Ipse locusm.....

McCartney

Ipse locum...

Would that be disruptive?   Will Beback  talk  22:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't know! :))--andreasegde (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

More than formatting it's an organizational issue. Different people had different experiences. Organising the "Experience" by person/couple makes it easier to convey the details unique to each. Or that's my thought, at least. As I add details it's harder to know where to put them now. There are many good ways of organising an article, so I'm open to others. Thoughts?   Will Beback  talk  09:11, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

References

I'll work on the book refs, because they have to be overhauled. Pity they don't have page numbers, but I might get a lot from Google books.--andreasegde (talk) 12:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've filled in almost all of the page numbers that you hadn't already done. The few remaining may be erroneous citations, which I'll check shortly (darn these unindexed books!). I've used WebCite for all of the external linked sources, except for this minor one which may already be too late.[1] It's looking pretty good otherwise. Any more citation issues to be resolved?   Will Beback  talk  11:39, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm re-reading the sources I have at hand, and filling in some details as I go. It if becomes too detailed we can cut it back down again, of course.

It's a delicate topic. Sources vary tremendously in their reliability. The two main problems are that people either forget or were foggy to begin with, or that they've read other people's books and regurgitate them, sometimes without saying so. Some sources are probably accurate within a defined area, but almost certainly aren't reliable outside that area. It's a bit squishy.   Will Beback  talk  12:24, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Mardas

Read this [2], it's great stuff.--andreasegde (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting, but is it usable?   Will Beback  talk  05:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah! It's from the New York Times.--andreasegde (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

"Something"

• "Something"

I may have been the one who added this, but on review I'm not sure that it's correct. Boyd describes the matter in the middle of her description of Rishikesh, but she says the song was written while the White Album was being recorded. Presumably, that happened after Rishikesh. Maybe we should find a second source to clarify the issue.   Will Beback  talk  05:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this nails it on the head. It was written at Abbey Road.--andreasegde (talk) 13:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Good research.   Will Beback  talk  20:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Seems that Pattie was fibbing a bit. :)--andreasegde (talk) 10:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Every source requires careful consideration. I've never seen a topic with so many different axes to grind.   Will Beback  talk  10:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Beatles in Rishikesh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: SilkTork *^{Tea time} 09:28, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Article looks attractive, detailed, and interesting.
• Prose appears clear and readable and should pass GA criteria, though I'm noticing some minor quibbles such as: "The group eventually arrived at the ashram" - why "eventually"? "the musicians wrote many songs which were later recorded on The Beatles" - did they write many songs, or is it that many of the songs were included on the album?

"eventually" deleted, and songs divided into the albums they were on.

• The main image is non-free, yet is used twice. The second time is acceptable - I am not sure if the first use is. Be good to either replace the lead image or get confirmation from an image use specialist as to if it is acceptable to use it like that. When I click on the Meditation chambers at the old Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Ashram image I am taken to an article rather than the image details. This might be in contravention of the licence. Please check. And while we're on that image, the caption is very long. I haven't checked, but is the content in that caption repeating text in the main body? If not, then the text should be in the main body. If yes, then the caption can be trimmed back to simply identifying the image. See WP:Caption.

Image links fixed, and caption shortened.

• The image of the Maharishi also goes to the article rather than the image details.

Fixed.

• The article is wonderfully detailed, though I am wondering if it is too detailed in places. The Lennon and Harrison's departure section for example. There is a lot there, and I am wondering if in the desire to capture the minutia of the incident, the overall importance of what happened is being lost. We are being caught up in the drama of the packing and the taxis, and it is an enjoyable read, but are we getting the encyclopedic importance of that incident summarised for a general encyclopedia. It's a good read, but it feels like it belongs more properly in a book or magazine article. I am unsure about this, because as a Beatles fan I enjoyed reading it, but I wonder if it could be trimmed to the important details?

The "Lennon and Harrison's departure" section has been cut down.

• "credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" could usefully be cited per WP:LEADCITE

Referenced in the lead, and used book title: American Veda: From Emerson and the Beatles to Yoga and Meditation How Indian Spirituality Has Shaped the West, in the article.

• The article appears to provide broad coverage, though the Legacy section doesn't provide adequate details of the impact of the incident, as it doesn't seem to pick up on the "credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" comment in the lead. The Legacy section contains info on the ashram, and comments by members of the group on the Maharishi, rather than on summarising the importance of the event. See History_of_Transcendental_Meditation#1960s. I like that comment by Densmore: "There wouldn't be any Doors without Maharishi". The Beatles endorsement of Maharishi and TM had a significant impact. Some sources here.

The "Legacy" section has been rearranged.

• Would be useful to mention Donovan and a few others in the lead. And, though this article is mainly about the Beatles, it would be appropriate to included Donovan's song in the song list.

Done.

• I like this article a lot. I think it shouldn't take too much to get it to meet GA criteria. A little copy-editing, building the lead, trimming back a little here and there, and a refocus of the Legacy section. I'll put it on hold for an initial seven days for these matters to be discussed. In the meantime I will check the sources.SilkTork *^{Tea time} 10:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

GA discussion

That's a very helpful review.

• I'll take it on myself to add cites and material on the legacy and "credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" issues. The Doors met the Maharishi before the Beatles, so they weren't an effect. However this interaction, despite its unhappy end, dramatically popularized TM and a number of people say so directly.
• We can drop the first use of the photo.
• They arrived "eventually" because they had to reschedule at least one, came late, and travelled in two groups which got there a day or two apart. We can clarify that.
• Donovan was a significant influence on the event, so it's appropriate to add him to the lead.
• One reason that the Harrison/Lennon departure and other parts may seem over-detailed is that there are so many differing accounts of the event, especially the departure and its reasons. It's the Rashomon effect. When sources appear to agree it's sometimes because the author has read the other account and used it to supplement their own memory or knowledge. I'm wondering if, instead of less detail, it'd be improved by doing a better job of splitting out the different versions. Something like, "According to A, xyz. According to B, zmj. According to C, yuv." Or another way of presenting the events in a more straightforward way, with fewer details and more interpretation.

I'm sure Andreasegde and I can address these issues in a week.   Will Beback  talk  18:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

• • (ec)Thanks for quick response. I'll be guided by you both as subject specialists regarding the importance of the Harrison/Lennon departure, though could you explain why it's the departure itself that you regard as important. It appears to me that the departure was the result of tensions within Rishikesh, and it is the tensions that appear important rather than the incident of the departure. I'd be certainly interested in hearing more about the tensions, but perhaps rather less of the actual departure. Does that make sense? Perhaps a renaming of the article to "Tensions" or "Disillusionment" might help focus the reader on what is happening? I am also unclear on the chronology of events. The 2nd paragraph has Lennon and Mardas confronting the Maharishi about Bonas. The 3rd paragraph has Mardas speaking to Lennon in the woods and also to the Maharishi about money issues. The 4th paragraph has them leaving "the next morning". I suspect that the 3rd paragraph should come before the 2nd one, though looking at Beatles-Discography.com it appears that Mardas has been speaking about the Bonas allegations for some days before the departure on the 12th, and it wasn't the Bonas incident but some unspecified other incident that prompted the departure. Did Lennon confront the Maharishi about Bonas before the 12th? What is it that Lennon is referring to with his cryptic comment "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why"? SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
    • You're right: The split between Lennon and the Maharishi is what's important, though it led immediately to the hurried departure. We've re-organized the existing text and added a little to make the chronology and relative importance clearer.
    • The dates of events at the ashram are not as clear as some would like. I'm suspicious of some of the dates on the Beatles-Discography.com website, which may be over-precise. Several of the memoirists who were there note that their perceptions of time were vague while mediating many hours a day, or even that they lost track of days. Mardas is not entirely reliable since he has an obvious bias having been labeled by many as the villain in this matter, a role which he's denied.
    • We can only guess what Lennon meant by his reply to the Maharishi as they left. It's commonly repeated in accounts of the event, so it's worth keeping in the article. I think that more than anything it shows the feelings of contempt that Lennon had that day, the same day he wrote Sexy Sadie, considered by most to be a rebuke of the Maharishi. (Maybe we should include that connection).
    • I'll add a little more on the legacy issue to supplement the brief material we've added when I can find sources on that issue. (It's not easy to search on abstract concepts!) But, thanks largely to Andreasegde's hard work, I believe we've addressed most of the issues you've identified.   Will Beback  talk  21:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I like what is happening on the article, and feel that it is clearer. I paused for a moment on the Ringo quotes, as part of my previous hesitation was on the level of what could be seen as gossipy detail, though I think it can be argued that the quotes do reveal some aspects of the tension, and the way that individuals were responding. Also, I remember the Butlins quote at the time, and have seen it mentioned in articles, so it is notable and it is appropriate that it appears in the article. I'll take a closer look at the article in the next few days. Good work. Quick, responsive, and thorough. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 23:42, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Great progress. Some sticking points:

• • The Later departures section doesn't quite make sense now, as we are not told what "the matter is". Also, the article is still unclear on the sequence of events. In the Tensions section we have Lennon speaking to the Maharishi about the sexual misconduct allegations, to which the Maharishi supposedly says he is only human. Then in the Later departures section we have Lennon going to him again, presumably over the same sexual misconduct allegations, though this is not made clear, and this time Lennon doesn't say what the meeting is about.

• • "Band members had already seen him on Granada TV years earlier." Is there a date for this?

• • In the lead - "Their stay at the ashrams" - should this be singular?

• I think this is a lucid and comprehensive article. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 20:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll work on the chronology further to see if can't make it flow better. One problem is that there were several tensions at the same time, so it's hard to arrange them both logically and chronologically. I'm not sure if we know when the first confrontation happened. It may have been that Lennon, et al., confronted the Maharishi, then Lennon, Harrison and Mardas sat up all night discussing it, then left that morning. Lennon makes it sound like the confrontation was after the all-night session. FYI, I posted an excerpt from a 1971 interview at Talk:The Beatles in Rishikesh#Parting comment.

Regarding the Granada appearance, McCartney said "We'd seen him years before..." Here Comes the Sun: The Spiritual and Musical Journey of George Harrison By Joshua M. Greene says Harrison saw the show when he was a boy (which seems unlikely, depending on the definition of "boy"), and specifies that it was on the People and Places show.[3] A tertiary source, That Magic Feeling: The Beatles' Recorded Legacy, Volume Two, 1966-1970, says it was sometime in the early 1960s.[4] In The Beatles Anthology, Harrison says "We'd seen Maharishi when we were kids. He was on the telly every few years on Granada's People and Places programme, the local current affaris show. We'd all say, 'Hey, did you see that crazy guy last night?' so we all knew about him: he was the giggly little guy going around the globe seven times to heal the world (and this was his third spin)." Since the Maharishi first visited London in 1959 or 1960, and if Harrison turned 25 in 1968, then they might have seen him when they were in their middle to late teens. I'll keep trying to pin down a specific year, but I doubt we can do better than "years earlier".

Oops, yes, just one ashram.   Will Beback  talk  21:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

You'd need a date for FA, but not for GA. I saw it when copy-editing and if I'd got to the end and all was fine, I would have listed the article, with just a mention to pin down the date if you could. That's something to work on, but is not going to prevent a GA listing. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 00:25, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I hope that date won't prevent an FA - it may be lost to time. ;) We might end up deleting it if it's too much of a problem. It's a small detail. There are sources for the more general concept that the Maharishi was already well-known in the UK.

Well, somebody will mention WP:DATED, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm digging out my stack of sources so I can review the departure timeline. I'll work on it tonight and tomorrow.   Will Beback  talk  00:32, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I re-read the 15 or so sources which seemed to have the most detail about this topic. It's amazing how many different versions there are. A book from 2005 says, "Many details of the events that led to the Beatles leaving so suddenly are still very uncertain." Indeed. Nonetheless, I think I've figured out the sequence of some of the major events regarding the departure.

• Farrow leaves, after telling folks that the Maharishi had made a pass at her.
• Mardas arrives (perhaps before Farrow left), and immediately starts questioning things
• Mardas and Lennon discuss finances (probably on and off for the rest of the stay).
• The "American woman" sometimes identified as RB or later as Bonas, tells folks that she is getting chicken and sex from the Maharishi.
• Mardas confonts the Maharishi about sex and maybe finances also
• Meanwhile, the Four Star film crew and Charles Lutes arrive to start their film
• Mardas spies on the woman and the Maharishi getting physical
• He goes to Lennon and Harrison and the three discuss it until Lennon decides they should leave
• The next morning Mardas gets taxis
• That morning Lennon tells the Maharishi that they're leaving. He makes the "If you're so cosmic you'd know why" accusation. The lack of answer (and facial expression) confirms his decision to leave.
• They finish packing.
• On their way out the Maharishi stands nearby, asking them to stay and talk to him.
• While packing or in the taxi Lennon composes "Sexy Sadie"
• The Harrisons travel separately, and the Lennons get stuck, having to hitchike to Delhi.

However I'm not confident enough in that sequence to present it to readers as such. I've left the separation between the "Tensions" section, which is arranged more or less thematically, and the "Later departures" section, which is in sequential order. Nonetheless I think it conveys the material more accurately and clearly. During all of that reviewing of sources I came across a bunch of relevant details and small corrections. Hopefully the article isn't overburdened with details.   Will Beback  talk  08:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Looking to close

I'm looking to close, and just reading through. Remaining quibbles:

• "Mardas ... was a disruptive influence" - can we get a direct inline cite for that as it's a strong statement, or remove it and allow what follows to speak for itself. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 10:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I've removed that statement in order to list this as a GA. If you get a source, the statement can be put back.

• I'm much impressed with the content of this article and the way it is structured. There are areas where the prose can be tidied up in order to push this for FA, and it would be worth getting a peer review and a decent copy edit from the Guild before going to FAC. I'm sure different people will have different views on the organisation and presentation of the facts surrounding the tension, but you have certainly got an informative and well sourced base on which to work. Good stuff - well done. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Good points. The article has improved greatly in the last month and there's still plenty to do. Copy-editing is needed, for sure. There are more details to add (and perhaps some to remove). Thanks for your feedback and for reading the article repeatedly.   Will Beback  talk  12:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Legacy, etc.

This isn't the best source, but it does directly address the issue of legacy, so I'll park it here for the time being pending better sources.

• It signaled the start of his interest in Eastern spiritual traditions, after his and George Harrison's meetings with the guru Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi of the Transcendental Meditation movement. Indeed, one of Lennon's under-rated contributions to contemporary culture is that he jumpstarted the West's interest in Eastern meditative traditions. To be sure, there were already Eastern-religion groups in the West then, mainly Hare Krishna, Ananda Marga, the San Francisco Zen groups started by D.T. Susuki, the circle of Jiddu Krishnamurti in England. The Beatle's involvement with the Maharishi in 1967 however all of a sudden made Eastern spirituality the in-thing for the generation that idolized them. It was like the impact-but a thousand times more powerful -- of Madonna becoming an adherent of Kabbalah, or Oprah Winfrey of Eckhart Tolle. (By the way, Tolle's best-selling "Power of Now" was presaged by Lennon's "living-for-today" line.) And after Lennon left the guru, young Americans and Europeans -even a Filipina, Gina Lopez of that powerful clan -- were backpacking all over India looking for their gurus and joining ashrams. It certainly inspired me to move from book-learned hatha yoga, to a group of kriya yoga practitioners, and then in the mid-1970s, to the extremely controversial Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, or Osho.
  • 'Imagine'. Rigoberto D. Tiglao. Philippine Daily Inquirer McClatchy - Tribune Business News. Washington: Oct 21, 2010.

More to follow.   Will Beback  talk  20:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

• Krieger later attended UCLA but never took school seriously. He dropped out and met Ray Manzarek (keyboardist) in 1965 at a meditation session led by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Krieger already knew John Densmore (drummer). "We were three men on the quest for enlightenment. When he joined, the band became complete," Manzarek said of Krieger.
  • Movie Opens Up Past for Doors Guitarist Former member of rock 'n' roll band now plays jazz and is preparing to tour with a new group. But as Robby Krieger looks back on the days of fame two decades ago, he wishes he could do it again; [Valley Edition] MICHAEL ARKUSH. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 24, 1991. pg. 86

Since the Doors met at a TM initiation in 1965, I don't think we can call it a result of the Beatles' involvement in 1967–1968.   Will Beback  talk  08:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm removing "(with their son Julian Lennon)", because I'm fairly sure he was not there. The Maharishi gave the Lennons a suit for him as a gift,[5] but that doesn't mean he was there personally. The presence of a small English boy would have been mentioned explicitly.   Will Beback  talk  09:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm done with the main work on the article organisation, copy editing and fact-checking. I'll fill-in the self-created "fact" tags, and work on the legacy section in the next day or two.   Will Beback  talk  10:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Parting comment

Regarding Lennon's parting remark, he recounts the episode in an interview from 1971.

• Yes, there was a big hullaballo about him...trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women... And we went down to him after we stayed up all night discussing 'was it true or not true'. [..] So we went to see Maharishi. [..] And I said 'We're leaving.' He asked 'Why?' and all that shit, and I said 'Well, if you're so cosmic, you'll know why,' because he was always intimating that he did miracles, you know. And I said 'You know why,' and he said 'I don't know why, you must tell me,' and I just kept saying 'You oughta know,' and he gives me a look like 'I'll kill you, you bastard,' and he gave me such a look and I knew then, when he looked at me, you know, because I had called his bluff because I said if you know all, you know. Cosmic consciousness, that's what we're all here for. I was a bit rough on him.

Make of that what you will. It's one of the earlier accounts of the actual break, told by one who was directly present and speaking. I'm not sure how to summarize the this better. The existing material says,

• Lennon became convinced that the Maharishi, who said he was celibate,[94] had made a pass at Farrow or was having relations with other young female students.[95] [..] Lennon, Harrison and Mardas sat up all night discussing the matter and decided to leave the next morning, packing hurriedly.[105] [..] When the Maharishi asked why they were leaving, Lennon replied "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why".

We could certainly say more about this crux issue, the all-night discussion followed by the departure.   Will Beback  talk  10:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer Juniper

Donovan may not be an entirely reliable source. However he says in his memoirs that "Jennifer Juniper" was released in February 1968, before going to Rishikesh, and that's also what the WP article says. In this case, I think his account is more accurate than Brown and Gaines who simply imply, but don't say, that it was composed at the compound. See also: [6] If there's no objection I'll remove it. On the other hand, Donovan does say he wrote "Hurdy Gurdy Man" and "Happiness Runs" there.   Will Beback  talk  00:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to show how unreliable these memoirs can be, Cynthia Lennon says that "Jennifer Juniper" was written in India and that Alex Mardas flew to India with the Lennons on 16 February.   Will Beback  talk  05:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

And another (minor) example: Pattie Boyd says Starr went to the lecture at the Hilton, but Starr and others say he did not.   Will Beback  talk  05:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, Boyd says that she and Harrison left the ashram a day later than the Lennons. Though no one else says that, I can't say she's wrong - the stories are so confused.   Will Beback  talk  05:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

A 13 April departure for the Harrisons would mesh with the Cooke De Herrera description, assuming she entirely missed out on the Lennon departure on 12 April and that the Harrisons left mid-day. But many accounts imply that Lennon and Harrison were in Delhi at the same time on their return. It doesn't make sense that they left on the different days but arrived the same day, even given the Lennon's taxi's famous flat tyre. Some sources say Lennon and Harrison were on the road together at least until the flat.   Will Beback  talk  12:12, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Photo of the Hilton: here, and here, with no Starr, but this photo at the London Meditation Centre shortly before the meditation meeting at the London Hilton has Starr in it.--andreasegde (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

You're an amazing researcher. I'd never seen those first two photos. The third photo is more widely reproduced. I recall reading that it was from September 1967, perhaps before a different lecture at the Hilton.   Will Beback  talk  18:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Title

I noted as I was editing that the French and Italian projects use the title The Beatles in India. And isn't that how the incident is generally referred? Looking at Google and Google Books there are more hits for India than Rishikesh. I'm just raising the issue here - I won't be taking part in any further discussion, nor am I suggesting that the title is changed; but there is no record of a discussion on the title, so it might be appropriate to have one. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting to look at those. The Italian article is just a shorter translation of this one, but the French article has some different info and sources. It deserves a closer look as a meta-source.

'The Beatles in India' seems so obvious to look at it now. I'm not sure how we ended up with 'Rishikesh'. The average readers is probably unaware that Rishikesh is in India and might not realize the topic of this article from its title. I don't think the renaming would change the scope in any way so the text could remain the same. If this isn't controversial we can move it without a formal discussion. Any objections or other input?   Will Beback  talk  12:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd support a move to India. If Andreasegde agrees, then it would be an uncontroversial move. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 15:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I would support that, but (and it's a small but), the article would have to encompass Harrison's various sojourns there as well.--andreasegde (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It would be appropriate I think to have a section with a summary of Harrison's later visits to India, though kept small in this article, and split out into a standalone article per WP:Summary style if the material grew. In the meantime I will move the title and make the adjustments to the GA listing, etc. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 17:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Refs

• 73 Greene 1998, p. 96.
• 136 Goldman 2001, p. 296.
• 148 Olson 20047, p. 339.
• 151 Bainbridge 1997, p. 188.

Parking these here as a reminder to fix these refs.   Will Beback  talk  11:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

New source: Virtual Orientalism, Asian Religions and American Popular Culture

• Virtual Orientalism, Asian Religions and American Popular Culture, Oxford University Press. 2011 [7]
• Iwamura, Jane, Assistant Professor of Religion and of American Studies and Ethnicity, University of Southern California

Iwamura devotes over 40 pages to analyzing the American media views of the Maharishi, focused on the late 1960s. I got hold of it through an online database, though it's also in hard copy. I'm just beginning to read it, but I'm sure it has significant material relevant to this article.   Will Beback  talk  21:56, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. It's a semiotic, decontructionist critical review, most of which would not be useful for this article. However some of the text is a lengthy analysis of photos which ran in various news magazines, including photos from Rishikesh. Since they have been the subject of critical attention, we could include a few of them under the fair use exemption. We already have one fair use pic, so probably just one or two more would be allowable. Most relevant would probably be a picture by Larry Kurland for the Saturday Evening Post which shows the Maharishi and the Beatles relaxing outside. I( I cna't find it online, but these pics are probably from the same photo-op.[8][9]) The second most relevant photos is harder to decide. There's one of the Maharishi in the famous helicopter, but it doesn't include Lennon. There's one of the Maharishi, Harrison, and McCartney in Sweden (a visit which is mentioned briefly in the text). There's also a picture of Maharishi and Mia Farrow with their faces surrounded by marigolds, and one of Nancy Herrera de Cooke and Mike Love "meditating for the camera", plus many more of even less relevance or utility.   Will Beback  talk  00:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Mick Fleetwood

The Mick Fleetwood material is second-hand: there are quotations from his memoirs posted on Salon.[10] I got the book from the library and discovered an error in the Salon excerpts: the first person commentary is not from Fleetwood, it's from Jenny Boyd. She is quoted a great length in the book, including a two-page passage on Rishikesh. Boyd and Fleetwood had broken up just before the event, and I believe they got together again afterwords. So I'll remove the assertion that Fleetwood was there, and reattribute the commentary on dysentary, etc., to Boyd. We might think about mentioning that she was on the splits with Fleetwood when she went to Rishikesh, though it's a bit of a side-detail.   Will Beback  talk  09:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes a side-detail, not worth mentioning. --BweeB (talk) 10:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Eh, it's akin to saying that Farrow was recently split from Sinatra (which we do). It amps up the secondary celebrity quotient, and adds context to the event itself.Still there are more important details to add first.   Will Beback  talk  10:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, J. has some other views of note, but also shows a faulty memory. She asserts that McCartney was still there when they left, and accompanied Harrison to south India. On another issue, she does not say that they left the day after the Lennons, and mentions Lennon and Harrison conferring in Delhi about how to characterize their departure.   Will Beback  talk  09:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The 'look'

"Paul Mason, a biographer of the Maharishi, interprets Lennon's statement as a challenge to the Maharishi's claim of cosmic consciousness.Sfn|Mason|1994|pp=139-140 Lennon said that his mind was made up when the Maharishi gave him a murderous look in response.Sfn|Mason|1994|p=140 Cynthia Lennon says that when they later walked past the Maharishi to the taxis he looked "very biblical and isolated in his faith".Sfn|Mason|1994|p=140"

Confusing. First, it allows Mason (biographer or not) to interpret what Lennon was thinking, which is very off. The "Lennon said..." sentence is also confusing, because Lennon had decided to leave (as did Harrison) before that last 'look', so he could not have made his mind up as he was actually leaving, as he did it the night before with Harrison and Mardas. Cynthia then upsets the apple cart by saying "he [the Maharishi] looked 'very biblical and isolated in his faith' at the gate". Which one should we believe? Lennon had to protect his interests, Cynthia had nothing to lose by telling what she saw, and Mason interprets.--andreasegde (talk) 08:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the encounter with John Lennon occurred before the departure, which is what Cynthia Lennon is talking about. Lennon's comment has been reported in a number of places. I think the first was in a 1971 interview, which I've quoted above under #Parting comment.

• ...I just kept saying 'You oughta know,' and he gives me a look like 'I'll kill you, you bastard,' and he gave me such a look and I knew then, when he looked at me, you know, because I had called his bluff because I said if you know all, you know. Cosmic consciousness, that's what we're all here for.

So it's not much of an interpretation on Mason's part to assert that Lennon's statement was a challenge to the Maharishi to prove his cosmic consciousness. We could quote Lennon himself instead, abut I think that it's better to use a secondary source. Maybe we can reword it to make it clearer, but I don't think we should delete it outright.   Will Beback  talk  21:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Would the chronology and separation of events be clearer if we split the paragraph and swap a sentence?

On the night of 11 April, Lennon, Harrison and Mardas sat up late discussing their views of the Maharishi. They decided to leave the next morning. They packed hurriedly, leaving souvenirs behind, while Mardas went to Dehradun to find taxis.

Lennon was chosen to speak to the Maharishi. When asked why they were leaving, Lennon replied "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why". Lennon said that his mind was made up when the Maharishi gave him a murderous look in response. Paul Mason, a biographer of the Maharishi, interprets Lennon's statement as a challenge to the Maharishi's claim of cosmic consciousness,

Cynthia Lennon says that when they later walked past the Maharishi to the taxis he looked "very biblical and isolated in his faith". The Maharishi pleaded, "Wait, talk to me." As they were leaving Lennon wrote "Maharishi", later renamed to "Sexy Sadie" because of its potentially libelous content.

Is that any better?   Will Beback  talk  07:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's good, apart from "interprets". It leans too heavily towards what a person thinks, but who probably never knew Lennon personally, and wasn't there at the time. It just sounds a bit off. Sorry. :)--andreasegde (talk) 09:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

We could use another word instead of "interprets". Something like "views" or "describes" would still be accurate. I think he's just restating what Lennon said, not speculating.   Will Beback  talk  03:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Comma

• The Beatles visited Rishikesh in India in 1968, to attend an advanced Transcendental Meditation (TM) training session at the ashram of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

I think that first comma doesn't belong. While a comma should follow the year in a complete date when it is a parenthetical phrase, it does follow the year. See Comma#In_dates. In this case it splits the sentence oddly.   Will Beback  talk  07:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Marisa Berenson

The model Marisa Berenson has a book coming out in October.[11] In an interview with the New York Times she says she was at Rishikesh with the Beatles.

• India changed my life, because I was searching for my spiritual path, and I ended up in an ashram in Rishikesh with Maharishi and the Beatles. We’d sit on the floor at night, and George and Ringo would play the guitar, and we’d meditate all day, and have meals together, and become vegetarians, and live in huts. But it was just normal. It wasn’t like, “Oh, here are the Beatles.” The most important thing was my transcendental meditation. I was searching for the light.[12]

She hasn't been mentioned in any other sources. The book appears to be more of a picture-book than a serious tome, but I haven't seen it yet. If it looks reliable we could at least add her name to the attendees.   Will Beback  talk  20:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Eating and living the TM way

• Webster, N. (1976). Eating and living the TM way. New York: Pocket Books. ISBN 9780671808112

I found a copy of this old book and, to my surprise, it contains a significant account of the 1968 ashram session. The narrator had little direct contact with The Beatles, but she gives interesting detail about the conduct of the course and the operation of the ashram.   Will Beback  talk  03:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Background

Shouldn't something be said about the stopover flight that The Beatles took (after the Philippines incident), which stopped in India? It was their very first (to my knowledge) visit to the country, albeit short.--andreasegde (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. Depends if you want the article to tell about all their trips to India, or just focus on the lenghty stay with the Maharishi. But since the title of the article is "Beatles in India", then should mention every time they were in India. --BwB (talk) 11:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that we should say much about that short visit. The title is a bit misleading as the obvious focus of the article is the relationship between The Beatles and the Maharishi, and their stay at the ashram in particular. We could add a line saying that it wasn't the band's first visit to India, we probably shouldn't go much beyond that.   Will Beback  talk  20:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not agree with BeBack's comments. If the article is about the Beatles in India, then we have to discuss ALL their visits to India. If we only want to talk about the relationship between Maharishi and Beatles, then the article has to be renamed and reworked. --BwB (talk) 10:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Renamed, perhaps. But it does not need to be reworked. Essentially everything in it is about the band and their guru. in any case, it's really on the only notable time they were in India. There's no harm in mentioning other visits, but it should be given its appropriately small weight.   Will Beback  talk  10:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Their first time actually being in the country is important enough to mention, as it may have led to wanting to them know more about its religions (I'm thinking about Lennon and his attitudes here, as well as Harrison). "It's not a paper encyclopedia", as one is often reminded. --andreasegde (talk) 10:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Right. Depending on how much has been written about it a line or two would probably be good. What sources do we have?   Will Beback  talk  10:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Surely we should cover ALL Beatles visits to India since this is the title of the article. Any material we can find with reliable sources on any Beatles visit to India should be included. --BwB (talk) 10:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Will Beback is up for that, but it doesn't mean going into any great length about it.--andreasegde (talk) 11:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Why not? If the article is about the Beatles visits to India, then we need to write about them all. --BwB (talk) 11:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about detailing which hotels they stayed in, what they bought, who they met? As far as the first visit was concerned, George said this, which is about two or three sentences when condensed.--andreasegde (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC).

Thanks for that link. It's a little ambiguous about what happened. It sounds like they changed their minds about stopping off in New Delhi, but had no choice. It isn't clear how long they stayed, but the implication is that they left on the next available flight.   Will Beback  talk  21:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I've added a brief account. [13]   Will Beback  talk  18:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Lead photo

Why are we using a photo of jungle vegetation as the lead photo for an article called The Beatles in India? How does this photo in anyway represent the article content as a whole? Doesn't it make more sense to use a photo of the Beatles while they were in Rishikesh? Thoughts from others?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Since there is no response I'm going to rearrange the photos.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Potential resources for the article

JOHN LENNON

• John Lennon Letter at Auction "In this 1967 letter, written from India, Lennon writes about TM: 'Try it, it really works and its easy'!" [14]

[15] [16]

• • An online auction house is selling a 1967 letter that John Lennon wrote to a fan who had inquired about transcendental meditation......In the letter, Lennon tells Jean Harrison she is "searching for something (truth) the same as everyone else." He says the Beatles were lucky to have met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but that other teachers could instruct her. [17] [18]
• Johnny Carson Show [19]
  • JOHN: "We believe in meditation, but not the Maharishi and his scene. But that's a personal mistake we made in public."
• "The Maharishi is human. We thought he was something else. We made a mistake," exclaimed John Lennon after the Maharishi's wisdom was deemed too earthly by the rock quartet—(June 17, 1986) Rajneesh still revs 'em up, The San Diego Union (CA)

CYNTHIA LENNON

Cynthia on Alex Mardas' role at Rishikesh: [20]

• A Twist of Lennon by Cynthia Lennon:
  • "Alex and a fellow female meditator began to sow the seeds of doubt into very open minds….. Alexs’ statements about how the Maharishi had been indiscreet with a certain lady, and what a blackguard he had turned out to be gathered momentum. All, may I say, without a single shred of evidence or justification."

YOKO

Yoko: [If Lennon were alive were alive today, says Yoko Ono, he probably would have reconciled with Maharishi. "John would have been the first one now, if he had been here, to recognize and acknowledge what Maharishi has done for the world and appreciate it," she says.]--From Rolling Stone (March 6, 2008 issue)

GEORGE HARRISON

• I still practice Transcendental Meditation and I think it's great. Marharishi only ever did good for us, and although I have not been with him physically, I never left him.”

George Harrison said in 1992:, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did."

RINGO STARR

• In February 2008, Ringo said of Maharishi, "One of the wisest men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going."
• Ringo Starr said when asked in 2008 about his time in India forty years earlier: “You can take the car, you can take the house, whatever. But the mantra’s mine. It’s in my soul”.

PAUL McCARTNEY

• PAUL: “He was great to us when Brian died” he said, recalling the train trip to Bangor at George’s request to meet the Maharishi for the first time, on the same day the band learned their manager had died from an overdose.
• Paul in the book: Many Years From Now by Barry Miles
  • "It was Magic Alex who made the original accusation and I think that it was completely untrue."
• Paul: "It came at a time when we were looking for something to stabilize us at the end of the crazy 60s" --James, Susan Donaldson, (April 6, 2009) Star’ Mantra: Get 1M Kids to Meditate, ABC News
• You traveled to India to study with Maharishi in 1968. What was the single most important idea or experience or lesson you gained while you were there?
  • Paul: Getting a mantra from Maharishi and then learning how to use it. The rest is up to your self. So actually, being given a mantra and being taught what to do with it was the most important aspect of the trip—the rest was great fun.
• Paul in 2009:What are your recollections of Maharishi? How would you describe him?
  • Paul: He was a very spiritual and intelligent man, but what made him so endearing to me was his infectious sense of humor.
• New York Times, February 7th 2008: "Mr. McCartney left about three weeks later, and Lennon and Harrison left about two weeks after that, after hearing rumors that the maharishi had made sexual advances to one of the women in the ashram. Lennon, as the group’s designated defiant loudmouth, went to the maharishi and said, 'We’re leaving,' adding only — as he reported the story in interviews — 'If you’re so cosmic, you’ll know why'."
• McCartney: "I was asked for my thoughts on the passing of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and I can only say that whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world and the cause of unity. I will never forget the dedication that he wrote inside a book he once gave me, which read ’radiate bliss consciousness,’ and that to me says it all. I will miss him but will always think of him with a smile."
• Paul McCartney's biography:
  • "It was a great gift that Maharishi gave us. For me it came at a time when we were looking for something to stabilize us towards the end of the crazy sixties. It’s a lifelong gift, something you can call on at any time."
  • "Over forty years ago, we ended up in Rishikkesh with Maharishi. Since then, sometimes a lot and sometimes a little, I have meditated. My mantra is a gift Maharishi gave me, something I could use and something no one could take away. It’s one of the few things I was ever given that means so much to me."
• "When people say, 'Wasn't he stashing it away in a Swiss bank? I always say that I only ever saw him in one piece of cheesecloth," said Paul McCartney of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the Beatles Anthology book. "I never saw him in a decent suit in his life. You would have thought if he was doing it for the money you would catch him bombing off to a New Delhi nightclub in a Rolls. But he always appeared to be in his hut meditating, in a piece of cheesecloth, and I thought: 'You can't knock him for that.'"

Deepak Chopra

• He [Chopra] said after some prodding: "The Beatles — along with their entourage, which included Mia Farrow — were doing drugs, taking LSD, at Maharishi's ashram, and he lost his temper with them. He asked them to leave, and they did in a huff. But when they went to the US, John Lennon gave an interview on the Johnny Carson show, accusing Maharishi of being a dirty old man. Later, Lennon also wrote a satirical song about Maharishi, which went: Sexy Sadie, what have you done/you made a fool of everyone." "But I'm sure there was never any truth to Lennon's allegations," added Chopra. "In fact, the rumour was that Maharishi had misbehaved with Mia Farrow, but I met Mia years later at the airport while taking a flight to India, and she asked me to tell Maharishi that she still loved him."--

Other

• New York Times: In the years since Lennon’s death, in 1980, Harrison and Mr. McCartney reconsidered the accusations against the Maharishi. Mr. McCartney has noted that the rumors of sexual impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas, a supposed inventor and charlatan who had become a Beatles insider. “Magic Alex,” as he was known, had agendas of his own, and may have fabricated (or at least exaggerated) the story. (Mr. Mardas has never commented on the incident.) During the 1990s both Harrison and Mr. McCartney were suitably convinced of the maharishi’s innocence that they reconciled with him and offered apologies. [21]
• "Most of the group, including Mia Farrow, later said Maharishi’s actions had been misinterpreted and they were sorry to have doubted him."[22]
• New York Times: "During the 1990s both Harrison and Mr. McCartney were suitably convinced of the maharishi’s innocence that they reconciled with him and offered apologies." [23]
• LA Times article:
  • In the years since Lennon’s death in 1980, Harrison and McCartney publicly commented on the accusations against Maharishi. McCartney has noted that the rumors of impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas, who, says The Times, was "a supposed inventor and charlatan who had become a Beatles insider." “Magic Alex,” as he was known, apparently had agendas of his own (which included wanting to be known as "the Beatles' guru"), and according to many sources Mardas flat out fabricated the story. During the 1990s both Harrison and McCartney, convinced of Maharishi’s innocence, reconciled with their meditation teacher and offered apologies. Cynthia Lennon believed that Mardas invented the story to undermine Maharishi's influence on the Beatles. Harrison, years later, commented, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have—but nothing did... There were some flaky people around back then and we were four of them."
• Gurus In America (book): "While the public falling out of several of the Beatles and Maharishi is often reported, little mention is made about the continued positive relationship Maharishi maintained with Paul McCartney and particularly George Harrison, who played a benefit concert for the Natural Law Party in the 1990's."
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• None of the Beatles stayed for the duration of the teacher training. Ringo left after ten days or so at the ashram. He and his wife missed their kids and anyway has never planned to stay long. Paul left after five and a half weeks. “I’m going away a new man”, Paul is said to have confided in Nancy Cooke de Herrera, who job was to minister to the foursome’s more prosaic needs. George and John stayed on for a while longer.

Then rumors started to circulate: Mahesh, an avowed celibate, had made advances toward at least one female student. The Beatles could tolerate Mahesh’s politics (he wouldn’t oppose the Vietnam War, despite his professed desire for world peace). The could tolerate his inconsistencies (students could use alcohol but not acid). They could tolerate his solicitousness. But they couldn’t tolerate his sexual hypocrisy or even the appearance of it. The felt Mahesh was abusing his power. George and John left abruptly. “We believe meditation, but not the Maharishi and his scene,” said John on the Tonight Show, in mid-May of 1968. “But that’s a personal mistake we made in public.” Yeah. I mean he good. There’s nothing wrong with him,” explaind Paul. “But we think the system is more important than all the two-bit personality bit.”

• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:42, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Content from Transcendental Meditation movement article moved here for incorporation into this article

• In 1968, when The Beatles were followers of the Maharishi, money and promotion were sources of tension.
  • Already included in the Tensions section per this sentence: Money, sex, and drugs were sources of tension between the Maharishi and the Beatles
• Although there was talk of making a film about the Maharishi in co-operation with Apple Films,
  • Already included in the Filming section
• it was discovered that the Maharishi was independently negotiating with ABC Television in the US to create a TV special featuring the band.
  • Already included in the Filming section
• Two visits by their business manager to the Maharishi failed to stop him proclaiming that he could deliver the band for a TV show.
  • Already included in the Filming section
• Their road manager was surprised when he realised the Maharishi was a sophisticated negotiator, knowing more than the average person about financial percentages.
  • This sentence is word for word from the Tensions section
• Another project involved Four Star Films and Bliss Productions, a company run by Charles Lutes who was the head of the Maharishi's Spiritual Regeneration Movement in the US.
  • Already in paragraph 2 of the Tensions section
• It was hoped that The Beatles would appear in it, but the contract was signed without their commitment. Some followers consider the crew's presence to have precipitated the sudden departure of Harrison and Lennon and was the catalyst for their discontent.
  • Already contained in the Tensions section
• John Lennon later told his wife that he felt that the Maharishi had, in her words, "too much interest in public recognition, celebrities and money" for a spiritual man.
  • Already included in the Tensions section
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Upon closer examination, I see that all of the above content is already contained in the article per my notes above, which were added just now.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Parking content for discussion

• The band and many of their entourage paid the fee but the fee was not paid by Lennon.

I've removed the text above and am parking it here pending discussion. Can someone provide a quote from the sources? The reason I've removed it is because the text implies that Lennon had an issue with paying one weeks salary for his TM. However, multiple sources contradict this:

• John Lennon said "Everybody gives one week’s wages when they join [TM]. I think it’s the fairest thing I’ve heard of. And that’s all you pay, just the once." 1) Beatles-Discography.com: Day-By-Day Song-By-Song Record-By-Record, By Craig Cross, page 161
• John Lennon said: "Another groovey thing, everybody gives one week's wages ---- Hippie By Barry Miles, page 251
• John Lennon said: "Another groovey thing, everybody gives one week's wages"--John Lennon in his own words by John Lennon, Barry Miles, Pearce Marchbank, page 63
• "I added my two cents' worth by criticising the Maharishi's policy of demanding a tithe of one week's wages from his followers, whereas the traditional teachings are free to anyone who asks. At this Lennon scoffed at me."--In the Sixties, by Barry Miles, page 1963
• "To the media, the most interesting obligation for him and the other three was contributing a week’s wages, which clearly would add many thousands of pounds to the Maharishi’s coffers. John replied that only a single joining fee was levied and that this lack of discrimination between rich and poor [is] the fairest thing I’ve ever heard of’."---John Lennon: The Life, By Philip Norman, page 518
• "They took up TM in earnest-learning their mantras, hesitating only slightly when it came to talk of donating their week’s wages, which for the Beatles was an astronomical sum."---Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and the Dark Side of the Age of ... By Gary Lachman, page 341
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:21, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

• Keithbob, I fully agree with your choice to remove the datum, which is obviously in dispute and likely erroneous. From the sources you provided above, I think its safe to assume that Lennon paid his share as did the rest of the entourage. Really nice work on the article BTW. Cheers! GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks Gabe for your time and efforts here. As you know Wikipedia is a collaborative project and the majority of the credit for the article goes to Will BeBack and Andresegde and also to Silk Tork who did the GA review. I've done my best to add to their work. Thanks again for your help! best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Explanation for change

In this edit I changed the quote from George Harrison:

• Original quote-- "historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did." page 285
• Replacement quote-- "It's probably in the history books that Maharishi 'tried to attack Mia Farrow'-but it's bullshit, total bullshit." page 286

The reason for this change was that I could not find the original quote on the cited pages of the source (Anthology), so I replaced it with one I could find. However, I later came across the original quote as well and if anyone feels the first quote is better, they are free to change it back. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposed removal

I'd like to remove the Harrison quote from the Experience section:

• Harrison told Saltzman, "Like, we're The Beatles after all, aren't we? We have all the money you could ever dream of. We have all the fame you could ever wish for. But, it isn't love. It isn't health. It isn't peace inside, is it?"

The quote is out of context and has nothing to do with the experience at the ashram, its more a statement of his personal philosophy. What do others think? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 12:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)