Talk:Theramenes

Peer review by me (User:Tutmosis)

• Comment: here are some small problems:
  • In the lead first paragraph please state a date range for when he was active in politics and a general. Example "was a general from 411 B.C - 407 B.C."
  • "appeared on the scene" used atleast twice. As far as I know that's slang. Is that really encyclopedic tone?
  • A long sentences and probably more of them:
    

"Nicias, one of the leading politicians in Athens after the death of Pericles, had been the primary advocate of the Peace of Nicias, which ended the first part of the Peloponnesian War in 421 BC, and had been in supreme command of the Sicilian Expedition, dying in Sicily Hagnon, meanwhile, had commanded the group of Greek colonists who founded Amphipolis in 437/6 BC, had served as a general on several occasions before and during the Peloponnesian War, and was one of the signers of the Peace of Nicias."

• • "This intrigue was initiated" Is "intrigue" really the right for what you trying to say? Picture caption of Alcibiades uses a better word "incited".
  • A tip I recommend is to put one/two-word description a lot more often before names. Instead of just "Bob" say "general Bob" or even "Spartan general Bob"
  • Other concern is through out the article there is a lack of background information. In some places of the text the reader is expected to know Athens history. Here are some examples:
    • "In the wake of the Athenian defeat in Sicily" what defeat?
    • "...promised to return to Athens...promised to return to Athens..." Why was Tissaphernes exiled... Who is he?
    • "he persuaded the assembly" which assembly is being refered to?
    • "demanded greater and greater concessions of them until they finally refused to comply." concessions from who and concessions for what?
    • "emissaries returned to Samos" which ones? So far you only mentioned the only emissary was Peisander trip to Athens.
    • "encouraged Samian oligarchs to begin planning a coup of their own" to overthrow Samos you mean? otherwise I thought all the conspirators were at Samos.
    • "oligarchic revolutionaries succeeded in gaining de facto" were they part of the main group of conspirators at Samos or a seperate group?
    • "This led to a rise in anti-oligarchic sentiments among the soldiers" I get the rest of the sentence but not how the failed coup at samos "led" to this. Werent the soldiers already on the democratic side?
    • "Theramenes protested strongly against the building of this fortification...but to let the Spartans in" How is building more fortification going to "let the spartans in"?
    • "Thucydides testifies that his charges were not without substance" Thucydides pops out of no where. State "The historian" so we know who he is.
    • "Theramenes charged that this fleet was planning to seize the fortifications on Eteiona" What you mean by "charged"? I dont get it. And what did this lead to?
    • "Athenian militiaman assassinated Phrynichus" Why?
    • "Argive accomplice was captured" Argive links to a place. Did you mean the militiaman accoplice from the above point?
    • "Peloponnesian fleet overrunning Aegina" I thought they were going to Euboea?
    • "enraged, the leaders of the 400 demanded action" I though when the extremists took control the 400 since the extremists were part of the 400. So how can they take control if they still one big party with the moderates?
    • "the wall was a good idea, he responded that if they wanted to pull it down, he thought that would be good." What wall? Why is it relevant?
    • "the 5,000 to govern" Who are the 5000? Or you mean 5000 people will be recruited?
    • "the hoplites tearing down the wall might well have preferred a return to the democracy." Tearing down walls makes you believe in democracy?
    • "the Peloponnesian fleet approached Piraeus" Again why did they come. You said they were going to Euboea.
    • "...Aegean suppressing oligarchies" Wasnt Theramenes an oligarch? Why would he suppress them?
    • Alcibiades is mentioned through out as being part of different wars/battles but I didn't catch what position he held when the oligarch took control of Athens?
    • "In command" and "Arginusae" sections throw battles/wars at the reader like there is no tommorow. Try to elaborate more on this battles. Sometimes I didnt even know who Theramenes was attacking against, all I got was a name of a place or person.
    • Okay finally in "Negotiating a peace" I understood that the Peloponnesian War was going on during all this time. Please mentions clearly through out the article this. Its only mentioned in the lead and not very clearly. Based on the lead I thought it was some 1 year war before Theramenes died.
    • "appointed by the members of the oligarchic social clubs to plan the transition to an oligarchy" Werent it allready an oligarchy? Or did the Spartans forced them to become a democracy? Or was the 5000 a democracy?

Please note some of this points might be irellevant since I might of missed a small detail but never the less, the article at times became confusing. - Tutmosis 18:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I forgot, gramatically speaking the article is pretty good except for the sentences with a lot of commas. In those sentences solely because of the commas their might be a gramatical error. - Tutmosis 18:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed feedback! It's great to hear from someone who isn't as familiar with the topic and can point out potential sources of confusion. I've tried to clarify everything that you had questions about above; the question of the destination of the Spartan fleet is the one thing I didn't change anything on, as it is a tricky issue; the fleet was ostensibly headed for Euboea, but, as Theramenes and his allies pointed out, its actions appear to indicate that it was actually headed for Athens. Thanks again for doing such a thorough review. --Robth^Talk 19:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for adressing the issues so I can vote at the FAC. - Tutmosis 20:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks to all who worked to make this a featured article! It's refreshing to log on to Wikipedia and see that there are still editors concentrating on articles about the classics "standard" encyclopedia articles and not just the latest fads and trends. Themfromspace (talk) 02:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Diodorus

As always, Diodorus Siculus is a compiler; his views reflect his source, which is not stated in the Historiography section. Who is it?

I should add that even Grote's condemnation of Theramenes is balanced by The atrocious injustice by which Theramenes perished—as well as the courage and self-possession which he displayed at the moment of danger, and his cheerfulness even in the prison, not inferior to that of Sokrates three years afterwards—naturally enlist the warmest sympathies of the reader in his favour, and have tended to exalt the positive estimation of his character. This should be mentioned also. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please protect the article

Too much vandalism is happening on this page. Plain and simple. JasonHockeyGuy (talk) 04:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

• Tell WP:RfPP. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Picture?

How did you guys manage to find the one guy in ancient Greece who didn't have a statue made after him? --32.146.244.185 (talk) 19:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources

I added the Against Agoratus source in the list at the end. I also added another source to this P.Mich.5982 fragment; I am not sure if this little bit is from the Hellenica Oxyrhynchia or not. Some scholars seem to group it as in that work. --Atethnekos (talk) 06:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

FA standards?

T8612 - Can you take a look at this against the FA criteria for WP:URFA/2020? The heavy use of primary sources is raising big red flags for me. Hog Farm _Bacon 21:06, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it should be delisted. "Coup of 411 BC" section is just a summary of Thucydides. You can also add Pericles, Aspasia, Alcibiades, and Demosthenes to the list. They are not as bad as Theramenes, but they rely too much on ancient sources (several entire paragraphs only use primary sources; it was already pointed out in the FAR of Pericles in 2007 but disregarded); I've seen several outdated sources too. Ping me if they go to FAR. T8612 (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll consider this discussion to be a notice for pre-FAR purposes. I'll ping you when this goes to the full-on FAR process. Hog Farm _Bacon 07:45, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

@T8612: - This is at FAR now. Hog Farm _Talk 01:46, 24 April 2021 (UTC)