Talk:Toma Raspasani

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Toma Raspasanović[edit]

 Done Toma Raspasanović (Raspassani) i njegov rad za austro-turskog rata krajem XVII veka: rasprava iz kulturne i vojno-političke istorije, Matica srpska, 1956 written by Rajko L. Veselinović is dealing with Toma Raspasanović. If it is the same person, I propose to include this work in literature section of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cooperation with Arsenije Čarnojević III[edit]

I found another source which mentions Toma Raspasani. It is Les réfugiés en Europe du XVIe au XXe siècles: actes du colloque du centre d'histoire des sociétés, des sciences et des conflicts de l'Université de Picardie Jules Verne tenu à Amiens les 23 et 24 mars 2007 which says: " le patriarche serbe orthodoxe Arsène III Cernojevic, absent de la région à cette date. Toujours est-il que le clergé catholique, Bogdani et un de ses collaborateurs Toma Raspasani, favorise le ralliement des Albanais à l'empereur."... Google translated:Serbian Orthodox Patriarch Arsene Cernojevic III, absent from the region at that time. Still, the Catholic clergy, Bogdani and of his collaborators Raspasani Toma, promotes the rallying Albanians to the emperor. This information can be used to expand the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The pro-HRE stance has already been added.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Information which I proposed to be used for article expansion is not related with his pro-HRE stance.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
promotes the rallying Albanians to the emperor i.e pro-HRE.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It describes how.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The snippet ends after the mentioning of pro-HRE stance.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Will you please clarify how is your last comment related with my proposal to expend the article with above presented information?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:50, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. your quote ends with promotes the rallying Albanians to the emperor, which is already written so what do you want to add?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are several informations in the above presented quote which are not included in the article:

  1. In the absence of Arsenije III Čarnojević who was
  2. the Patriarch of the Orthodox Serbs
  3. Catholic clergy (Pjetër Bogdani and Toma Raspasani)
  4. promoted the rallying of the Albanians to the Austrian emperor.

Since existing text does not contain any mention of above mentioned four information I will include it in the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They're two different sentences the first ending with Arsenije wasn't in the region at that date. and the second one begins with Still/Also the....--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are right.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, does it really matter if source contain some information in more than one sentence? I liked the previous version better. I think that source can present some information in more than one sentence, but that does not mean that wikipedia articles have to have the same number of sentences as the source. I will return to the previous version of one sentence. If you can present some wikipedia policy which supports using the same number of sentences as source please let me know.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's a misrepresentation of the source because it' doesn't say what you're quoting. That being said what does Arsenije not being in Kosovo have to do with Toma Raspasani?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First it was number of sentences. Now it is misinterpretation. I provided a quote which says exactly what I wrote. You wrote in your above comment that They're two different sentences the first ending with Arsenije wasn't in the region at that date. and the second one begins with Still/Also the.... That way you supported connection of Arsenije not being in the region and activity of Catholic clergy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I translated the two sentences from a source that you shouldn't use because you can't speak French, which led to misrepresentation. The first sentence ends with Arsenije wasn't in the region and the second mentions the unrelated part about the Catholics. Arsenije not being in the region belongs to the article about Arsenije, not the one about Raspasani.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree. The source clearly point to the increased activity of catholic clergy (whose member was Raspasani) in the absence of the patriarch of the Orthodox Serbs.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, you've made a significant error there: it's not clear. The word 'toujours' has a few distinct meanings, and from this context it's not clear which one is meant or how the sentence should be read (and that's probably why Google Translate had problems with it). However, when you tinker around with Google Books enough, you can find the preceding sentences, which are "Puis le 6 novembre, Piccolomini est entre a Prizren ou il a ete recu, disent les sources, par « un archeveque et patriarche ». Est-ce l'archevêque catholique albanais Bogdani ? Il est, en revanche, certain (comme l'a montré l'historien britannique Noël Malcolm) que ce ne peut être le patriarche serbe orthodoxe Arsène III Cernojevic, absent de la region a cette date...". This translates to "Then, on November 6, Piccolomini reached Prisren, where he was received by (according to sources) 'an archbishop and a patriarch'. Was it the Albanian Catholic archbishop Bogdani? It is, however, certain (as was shown by British historian Noel Malcolm) that it could not have been Serbian Orthodox patriarch Arsene III Cernojevic, who was absent from the region at that time. In any case, the Catholic clergy (Bogdani and Raspasani) rallied the Albanians to the Emperor..." So you see, when taken in proper context, this source indicates that Cernojevic was not involved. Okay? DS (talk) 15:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but since "The word 'toujours' has a few distinct meanings" you can not be sure that I "made a significant error there". "However, when you tinker around with Google Books enough" you can find the following information:
  1. during the Ottoman- Habsburg war in the late 17th century, when two great spiritual leaders from Kosovo decided to support the emperor: patriarch Arsenije III Carnojevic from Pec, and Albanian Catholic archbishop Pjeter...
  2. Non soltanto il patriarca serbo, Arsenije Carnojevic, ma anche l'arcivescovo cattolico di Scopie, Pietro Bogdani, ei "capi delle vicine nazioni" accolsero il generale Piccolomini il 1 novembre 1689 a Prizren, una volta sede del re e poi ....Google translated: Not only is the Patriarch of Serbia, Arsenije Carnojevic, but also the Catholic Archbishop of Skopje, Peter Bogdani, and "leaders of neighboring nations" accepted the general Piccolomini November 1, 1689 in Prizren, once home of King and...
  3. Nije također upitno da su zajedno s njima morali bježati i Albanci - katolici koji su bili u jedinicama koje je organizirao skopski nadbiskup, Pjetčr Bogdani u borbi na strani Austrijanaca protiv Turaka, a njih je bilo oko 20.000 (140, ... Translated by me: It is undisputed that together with them (Arsenije and Orthodox Serbs - clarification by Antidiskriminator because it is connected with the first of Great Serb Migrations) Albanian Catholics had to flee too because they participated in the units organized by archbishop of Skopje, Pjeter Bogdani to fight for Austrians against Turks,..
Above presented sources support the information that Arsenije was connected with Bogdani and his colaborator Raspasani in supporting the Austrian emperor, and when Arsenije was absent, two of them supported Austrian emperor. That is exactly what I wrote and I believe that Google translate made a good choice of the one of "few distinct meanings" of the 'toujours'.
Okay?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. how are any of these related to this article? This article's topic is Toma Raspasani i.e your views about Arsenije/Serb migrations/Pjetër Bogdani etc. should be on those articles' talkpage. Raspasani was Bogdani's vicar and promoted the Holy Roman Empire movement in the Catholic community. Everything else like Bogdani's 6,000 soldiers or the Serb migrations etc. aren't the topic of this article. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:30, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I provided a source which contain information activities of Bogdani and Raspasani in the absence of Čarnojević. When the translation of the quote was disputed, I provided other sources which prove that there was no mistake with translation because sources support the information that Bogdani (and his colaborator Raspasani) were connected with Arsenije in supporting the Austrian emperor.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is one more source which emphasize connection of Arsenije and Raspasani:
Sorry - the "significant error" was that you said "clearly", when it is muddled and ambiguous. DS (talk) 18:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. It was not clear, but I presented many sources which made it clear.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One more source which shows that Raspasani was translator when Arsenije spoke with Austrian general Pikolini: Пиколомини се саветовао из болесничке постеље са патријархом Арсенијем III и скоп- ским надбискупом Богданијем о уређењу новопридошлих устаника, о њи- ховој исхрани итд. Том приликом викар скопског надбискупа дон Тома Распасановић много помогао генералу Пиколинију, јер су преко њега вођени преговори пошто је он знао латински и талијански. Translated by me: Pikolomini consulted patriarch Arsenije III and Skopje archbishop Bogdani about newly recruited rebels and providing a food for them. At that ocasion vicar of Skopje archbishop don Toma Raspasanović helped a lot to general Pikolini, because they kept negotiation trough him, since he knew Latin and Italian.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:02, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The information about Toma Raspasani being translator during negotiations of Arsenije and Austrians is supported with this source too: Услуге тумача у преговори- ма пружио му је Богданијев викар Тома Распасановић, који је добро владао италијанским, латинским, турским и албанским језиком. Translated by me: Bogdani's vicar Toma Raspasanović served as his translator because he fluently spoke Italian, Latin, Turkish and Albanian language.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another source which even fulfill the (I think strange) request to contain information about activities of Toma Raspasani and Arsenije Čarnojević in the same sentence. (Tada je pri zadobivanju Arbanasa za ustanak protiv Turčina stekao najviše zasluge Franjevac Toma Rospasari, dok je vodja srpskih ustaša bio pećki patrijarh Arsenije III.)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion[edit]

Based on above presented numerous sources which support direct connection and joint actions of Orthodox Arsenije and Catholic Clergy Bogdani and Raspasani, it is obvious that there was no mistake with translation from French. It is obvious that the connection and joint actions with Arsenije should be further expanded within this article together with expansion of the historical context of their actions. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Antid. please don't WP:IDHT and tell me how are they related to the topic? All the sources you mentioned deal with other subjects and not Raspasani himself. Raspasani promoted the HRE movement, but anything else from Bogdani's soldiers to Arsenije leaving Kosovo with his followers aren't related to this topic. Please read OR about your views regarding these joint actions as you call them. Btw did you notice that you're quoting sources that deal with different dates? The one saying that Arsenije was in Prizren in November 1, doesn't contradict the one that says that in November 6 he wasn't at that location. However, this discussion shouldn't be taking place in this article.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All sources I mention support the following information:
  • During Great Turkish War local population on Kosovo participated in it by allying with Austrian emperor. Orthodox Serbs were led by patriarch Arsenije III Čarnojević and Catholic Albanians were led by Bogdani and Raspasani. Čarnojević and Bogdani together negotiated with Austrians with Raspasani who served as translator and who managed to convince Catholic Albanians to join Austrians in their fight against Ottomn Empire. When Čarnojević fled Raspasani and Bogdani continued to rally Catholic Albanians to support Austrian emperor untill they migrated too. Later, Raspasani wrote reports to Curia about the events.
Why would we hide all those informations from the readers of this article just because they are related to the patriarch of Orthodox Serbs? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. only parts about Raspasani are related to this article. If Arsenije fled the region and before that participated in the war isn't related to Raspasani, but to a subtopic of the Great Turkish War.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sources say that Arsenije is related to Raspasani because they together supported Austrians, they both negotiated with them, discussing about recruited rebels and providing food for them etc and more than one source emphasize that Raspasani was translator when Arsenije negotiated with Austrians. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here are all three of them connected within one sentence: Поред пећког патријарха Арсенија III и скопски надбискуп Петар Богдани, као и дон Тома радили су на томе да на ћесарску страну привуку становнике земље. My translation: Besides patriarch of Peć Arsenije III and archbishop of Skopje Peter Bogdani as well as don Toma worked on convincing the population of the country to support the emperor (of Austria, clarification by Antidiskriminator).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. the sentence says "A person did X, B person did X, C person did X". Following your logic we should wikilink all soldiers' articles of WWI to every other soldiers' article of WWI just because they took part in the same war/front.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No. The source I presented support information that three of them were connected. Why did you connect only person B and person C hiding their connection with person A (Orthodox Serb) despite such big number of sources which connect them? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)Raspasani was Bogdani's vicar and not someone who happened to be in the same alliance with him.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:03, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is your misinterpretation. Arsenije not only "happened to be in the same alliance with" Toma. I provided sources about their direct connection and cooperation. Unless you prove that sources are unreliable, information about connection and cooperation of Arsenije and Toma should not be hidden from the readers of this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great Migration[edit]

Here is a source that Toma also migrated from Kosovo Тома Распасановић, викар скопског надбис- купа, пошто је и сам избегао, писао је Конгрегацији за пропаганду вере римске курије да се многи народ с подручја надбискупије повукао према Будиму и околним крајевима, а један део да је отишао... Translated by me: Toma Raspasanović, vicar of Skopje archbishop, was refugee himself, he wrote to Congregation, that population from the territory of the diocese fled to Budim and surroundig areas, and that one part left to...

Since Toma Raspasani participated in the events before, during and after Great Migration of Serbs from Kosovo, and even reported about it, his participation and connectio with this event also should be included in the article and further expanded.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source doesn't say anything about the Serb migrations.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the source is: Seobe srpskog naroda od XIV do XX veka: zbornik radova posvećen tristagodišnjici velike seobe Srba, translated, Migrations of Serbs from XIV to XX century, works dedicated to three hundred years of Great Migration of the Serbs and describes how Toma was refugee himself (пошто је и сам избегао) describing migration of population to Budim. That event is known as Great Migration of Serbs, although there were some Albanians like Raspasani, who participated in it. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:00, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's best that you quote only text from a source and not their titles. Anyway, the current version exists because of a wrong translation that DS pointed out, but Zjarri is right when saying that Arsenije's flight has nothing to do with TR, although I'll add some of the info of your sources.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DS explained that he did not point to the wrong translation, but to the "clearly" word which I used. There is no wrong translation. TR also migrated, therefore he is connected with the Great Migration. Not only that he fled, but he wrote reports about it, like sources say.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of the referenced source[edit]

Kushtrim123, will you please be so kind to explain why did you removed referenced text from the article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They didn't replace Arsenije, but I added some of the other info.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 21:43, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove anything relevant to this article. Anything from that source that you want to add about Arsenius add it to Arsenije.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I provided plenty of sources which support their connection.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Serving in the units of Serbian militia[edit]

Raspasani served in Serbian militia:

Аустријанци су почели да утврђују Ниш, а потпуковник Антоније Знорић се по Ветеранијевом наређењу вратио из Београда у Ниш са 2.500 пешака Српске милиције; с њима је био и Распасановић као тумач јер је говорио албански. My translation: Austrians began to fortify Niš, and colonel Antonije Zornić came back from Belgrade to Niš, against the order of Veterani, with 2.500 infantry members of Serbian militia; Raspasanović was with them as translator, because he spoke Albanian.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:OR i.e he was a Catholic priest in the service of the Austrians, who acted as a translator for the Albanian soldiers.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How can you accuse me for OR if I provided source and quote?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't say that he was part/served in the Serbian militia, just that he accompanied a group to Nis in order to act as a translator of Albanian.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another source which clearly says that he was needed as translator because he knew Serbian language also. Из Београда је заједно са српском милицијом отишао у Ниш по наређењу генерала Ветеранија, коме је, по дон Томином казивању, био потребан због знања српског и арбанашког језика translated by me, Together with Serbian militia he came from Belgrade to Niš, against order of general Veterani, who needed him because he knew both Serbian and Albanian language, explained Toma.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a source which contain information about claim of R. Veselinović that Toma Raspasani was scribe in Serbian Militia. Such claim was disputed by Ljubisav Andrić. (о организацији српске милиције...закључак да је такав писар милиције морао бити фрањевац Тома Распасановић) translated by me: about organization of Serbian militia.... he concluded that such sribe of militia had to be Franciscan Toma Raspasanović.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have to clarify above mentioned dispute. It is disputed that he was scribe, but not that he served in Serbian militia. Дон Тома је био неопходно потребан.... за придобијање Срба и Арбанаса на аустријску страну, без чије помоћи се ратни циљ није могао постићи, а не писар и тумач" My translation: Don Toma was absolutely necessary ... to convince Serbs and Albanians to join Austrians, without his help the war aim could not be reached, not as scribe or translator.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a source which clearly state: "И после погибије фелдмаршала Ветеранија у бици код Лугоша, и евентуално Антонија Знорића, дон Тома је остао у српској милицји у склопу ћесарске војске." Translated by me: After field-marshal Veterani was killed in the battle of Lugoš, and eventually Antonije Zornić too, don Toma remained in serbian militia which was part of emperors army.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He was friend of Luigi Ferdinando Marsigli--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a source which explains that his family was very poor, and that they spent a lot of Toma's money--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Antid. a translator that accompanies a company in a route doesn't serve in a militia so please stick to the sources i.e he acted as a translator in some cases. Adding that he was Marsgli's friend is trivial.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not trivial. I propose to you to research their connection while I am on wikibreak. I will provide sources which will explain why it is not trivial.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here I explained one of reasons why it is not trivial. Have you researched their connection while I was on wikibreak?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I provided sources which clearly explain that he was not only a translator and scribe. Also, I provided source which directly support the information that he was and remained in serbian militia after Battle of Lugosch. That battle happened long after he travelled from Belgrade to Niš, together with serbian militia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please stick the sources i.e I can't contribute anything else to another discussion that's becoming ad infinitium.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your advice to stick to the sources which I intend to follow and to add information about Toma being in Serbian militia as sources say. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)Since you know that none of the sources that he served in any militia, it would be prudent to stick to them..--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:38, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All right, although I don't understand what is your point, I will accept your proposal and use the same term. He remained in Serbian militia.--Antidiskriminator (talk)

(unindent)Even if happened to be a translator of Albanian/Serbian in some cases it's trivial as the whole friends list. 12:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Why do you think it is trivial if he was in Serbian militia? Besides, I already provided sources about him not being only a scribe and translator in Serbian militia, but also a man in charge for other duties like convincing people to join Austrian side.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another quote about him being in Serbian militia: налазимо Дон Тому у склопу српске милиције потпуковника Антонија Знорића. После заузимања Призрена од сгране Турака почетком јануара 1690. године, док Тома бежи главом без обзира... translated by me: ...we find don Toma being a part of Serbian militia of Lieutenant Colonel Antonije Znorić. When Prizren was captured by the Turks at the beginning of January 1690, don Toma ran away headlong...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)I wouldn't use as a source Cakic, a Serb priest that got involved in anti-Catholic disputes and claimed that the anti-Semite bishop Nikolai Velimirovich was a healer and miracle maker. That being said the scarcity and the quality of the sources that mention the event make it trivial.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Taking in consideration that quote from his work only supports what many other sources say, I would not worry too much about it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another source Zbornik za društvene nauke, Issues 12-15 "са остатком тих трупа повукао се и дон Тома, који је као војник-поп био под стегом команданта народне милиције (National Truppen) потпуковника Знорића"..."Don Toma retreated together with those forces because he was soldier-priest and under flag of Lieutenant Colonel Znorić who was commander of national militia" --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Influence of Toma Raspasani on Luigi Ferdinando Marsigli and Leterae invitatorie[edit]

Based on informations provided by Toma Raspasani, Luigi Ferdinando Marsigli composed a document named "Memoria about Albania" („Memoria su l'Albania") which was basis for Invitational manifest (so-called Leterae invitatorie) issued by Leopold I on April 6, 1690 which initiated migration of Serbs from the southern Serbia (mainly Kosovo) to Voivodina in great numbers in 1690.

Sources for above mentioned information.

According to this and this source Austrian emperor issued so-called Leterae invitatorie based on memorial about Albania given to him by Marsigli. (Једино на основу података које је дон Тома могао дати, саставио је гроф Лудвиг Фердинанд Марсиљи један Меморијал (Memoria su l'Albania), којим се цару предлаже да Србима и Климентима обећа потврду њихових права - Colonel Marsigli gave to emperor Leopold one memorial which he could prepare only according to the informations given to him by don Toma, in which he proposed to the emperor to confirm the rights of Serbs and Kliments...). ... (Да је као подлога за састављање Леополдовог Инвитаторија од 6. априла 1690. балканским народима послужио један Меморијал (Memoria su l'Albania), који је цару Леополду доставио пуковник Марсиљи ... That Leopold based his Invitatoria to Balkans population from April 6, 1690 on a memorial given to him by colonel Marsigli...)

According to this source "The Serbs moved from southern Serbia (mainly Kosovo) to Voivodina in great numbers in 1690 to escape Ottoman retaliation, whose army they had fought together with the Austrians. The migration to Voivodina was initiated by an Invitational manifest (so-called Leterae invitatorie) issued by the Habsburg Emperor Leopold I to all Balkan Christians on 6 April 1690.

Here is a source with text of the Leterae invitatorie on Serbian. It is interesting that this invitation is ended with following text:

СВИМА НАРОДИМА И ЗЕМЉАМА? КОЈЕ ОД НАШЕ НАСЛЕДНЕ КРАЉЕВИНЕ Угарске зависе, и свима другима, који ово читали или слушали буду, а поглавито народу албанском Нашу царску и краљевску милост и свако добро. (my translation: To all countries and lands which depend on our hereditary kingdom Hungary, and to anyone who could listen to this, especially to people of Albania I wish our kings mercy and all the best).

Vladimir Ćorović in his History of Serbs also stated very important influence of memoar of Toma Raspasani on issuing the Leterae invitatorie. [1](Franjevac Toma Rospasari,..., svetovao je ... da carev poziv tim narodima.... Austrijanci su primili taj predlog i 6. aprila 1690. izašao je carev proglas svima narodima severnog, srednjeg i zapadnog Balkana ... i drugo pismo upućeno lično patriarhu Arseniju. Misao o slobodnom izboru vojvode... u tom carevom proglasu potekla... je... po predlogu fratra Tome, a po običajnom pravu albanskih brđana, koje su primili od svojih srpskih suseda. Međutim, ... imena oblasti, čijim je narodima car uputio poziv, "više literarnoga porekla i neodređena značenja", uzeta iz pretstavke Đ. Brankovića od 1688. god. Toga stava u Tominom memoaru nema.) (My translation of the most important parts: Franciscan Toma Raspasani ... advised .... that emperor's invitation to those nations... Austrians accepted that proposal and on April 6, 1690 Emperors invitation letter was issued to the all people of northern, middle and western Balkans... and second letter addressed to patriarch Arsenije personally. Idea of free election of vojvoda ... in that emperor's proclamation originated .... from proposal of the friar Toma, according to custom law of Albanian highlanders, received from their Serbian neighbors. Names of the areas to whose people emperor directed his invitation is more of literary and "indirect meaning" taken from the letter of Đ. Branković of 1688. Names of areas do not exist in memoar of Toma.)

I believe that connection of Toma Raspasani and Marsigli is obviously very important and should have its place in this article together with above mentioned information about influence of don Toma on Leopold's Leterae invitatorie. Does anyone have anything against it?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal about alternative names[edit]

His name has many alternative forms in the literature. I propose to add information about alternative names of Toma Raspasani which could be found in the works with information about him, like Tomasso Rospassari, Tommaso Rospassari, "Toma Rospasari", "Toma Raspasari", ... or any other alternative version present in the sources, besides his alternative name on Italian, which is in the current version of the article.

On the other hand, there are 0 GBS results for "Tomë Raspasani" and I propose that this version of the name should be double checked.

Is anyone against my proposal? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Toma is the definite version of Tomë(there's even a template about definite versions of names/placenames in Albanian) and the other Tomasso versions are variants of the Italian name.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide a link to the source for "Tomë Raspasani" version?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of cited content[edit]

With this edit diff Ktrimi991 removed cited text. Here is the quote: Говорио је српски, арбанашки, турски, а у Лорету је научио италијански и латински. which means "He spoke Serbian, Albanian, Turkish, and in Loreto he learned Italian and Latin." Since the cited source and the quote directly support the cited text, I will restore it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The source belongs to the category of unreliable sources. Either find a proper source or the sentence will be removed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ktrimi991 I disagree. The source is published by the Academy of science and arts, so it has substantial reliability. If you believe it is unreliable to be used in this context, please go to RSN and gain consensus.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:10, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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