Talk:Triple J Hottest 100 of All Time, 2009

Untitled

Created page to have a record of the Hottest 100 of all time, I used the same format as the 1998 page.

Nirvana

An interesting choice to announce "Smells Like Teen Spirit" as the winner given triple j have not aired the winner yet. A safe call... ? Vision Insider (talk) 08:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought the same thing, but could it have been anything else? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 08:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC).

Year of release

Since the all time poll allows songs from any year, it might be interesting to have a column showing year of release for the songs. Thayvian (talk) 01:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Charting History

Would it be warranted including position in previous "of all time" polls (particularly 1998) in the charting history column also. eg. 98. Kashmir - 63(1998 all time). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.221.208.163 (talk) 08:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone is already doing this, but this needs to be substantially clearer. There's charts, which are based on sales, and previous hottest 100 polls. Create an extra column. Thayvian (talk) 00:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Since it looks like whoever is editing this actually always meant previous polls, I've just changed the column heading. Thayvian (talk) 01:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction Thayvian, I added the columns quickly, so that users would start entering the information, unfortunately I didn't give enough thought to the heading. Actually, I would like to see separate columns each all-time poll, however this may warrant a new page e.g. "Songs to have polled in Hottest 100", rather than putting too much info on this page. Mobiustrip (talk) 02:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe once the play is over this Sunday we can think about a separate page. Thayvian (talk) 02:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

i would love if you did this so much —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.61.110 (talk) 06:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Well done to who ever is doing all the updates to the wiki page! Very punctual! - Will —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.41.31 (talk) 00:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

#101

never gonna give you up? may have just been rickrolled...number 101 is definitely Lithium By Nirvana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.61.110 (talk) 06:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

well you were quite wrong, weren't you. 203.213.105.179 (talk) 10:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

1. 101 was actually Heart-Shaped Box I believe, may be worth adding that later —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.39.2 (talk) 06:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyright speedy deletion

Note: According to the comments on the request for deletion page, Triple J have responded by email that they are in contact with Wikipedia to sort out the copyright status of the page, and '"wish the information to remain.'". This debate should probably be suspended until the position of the copyright holder has been determined for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.229.84 (talk) 08:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

A copyvio speedy deletion is up on the page now. I've requested that the user who put it up discuss it here. My main argument against it being a copyvio is this: while the list is the going to be the same as the one going up at http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hottest100_alltime/countdown/ and linked pages, Wikipedia users are entering the songs as they hear them on the radio. It's a compilation of facts, and thus not copyrightable. Thayvian (talk) 07:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A compilation of facts some (the song names and bands) being gathered from Triple J on the radio, with release dates and previous hottest 100 positions being gathered from (I think) elsewhere on Wikipedia. Thayvian (talk) 07:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This is a copyright violation, as are all of the other articles, since this is the intellectual property of the organizers. I'm going to bring this up at an appropriate venue, probably Wikipedia:Wikiproject Music. This is not a compilation of facts, this is a vote by the listeners. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music#Triple_J_Hottest_100.2C_2009_a_copyright_violation.3F. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This does not constitute a copyright violation due to the results being publicly broadcast nationally, a radio station cannot similarly copyright it's playlist. The ABC will be linked to on the page as a reference, and according to the ABC's own copyright notice (http://www.abc.net.au/common/copyrigh.htm) that is sufficent. Jimboss123 (talk) 07:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not a compilation of the radio station's playlist. It's a compilation of votes as to which songs the listeners think are the hottest. That is not a collection of facts. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

And the page you link to specifically says:

ABC Materials, including pages and on-line images, are protected by the Copyright Laws of Australia. All rights are reserved.

When you access the ABC you agree that:

* You may retrieve the ABC's materials for information only.

* You may save a local copy or send it to your printer for your own personal use or in order to inform authorised and potential users about the ABC materials. However, you may not make any charge for such use and any commercial exploitation is expressly prohibited.

* You must include the copyright notice in any copy that you make.

* You may not modify the information found in ABC materials without the express permission of the ABC.

How does that jibe with your claim that it's not copyrighted? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This was not intended to be a jibe, and should not be taken as one.

To counter your arguement i ask this, Is Wikipedia using this specific information for commercial gain? I don't think so.Jimboss123 (talk) 07:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean you were jibing anyone, in my dialect, "jibe" means "agree with". No, Wikipedia does not use this information for commercial gain, but Wikipedia is available for use by anyone else who wishes to use the material for commercial gain, and this copyright claim does not agree with (jibe with) Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I would seriously doubt that the ABC would consider this a breach of their copyright, i would think it wise to seek their opinion on the issue before requesting the page be deleted.Jimboss123 (talk) 07:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

that's not the way it works. YOU must prove that it is not copyrighted. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to bed soon, since I'm in the US, but if this is not removed by tomorrow when I start working on Wikipedia, I will nominate every single one of these articles except for Triple J Hottest_100 for AfD as copyright violations, unless an admin has come along to see the discussion on the Wikiproject page and deleted them already. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

However, if you can get somebody at Triple J to send a notice to OTRS saying their list is public domain (AFI did that for their Lists of 100 movies), then these can stay. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It says "any commercial exploitation is expressly prohibited", not "any use that could possibly result in commercial exploitation by someone else is expressly prohibited". We are "saving a local copy in order to inform authorized and potential users about the ABC materials", which is allowed, provided you put in a link to the copyright notice.Pwrong (talk) 15:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh my goodness this article is staying, just get over it, it's a list of songs, get over yourself Who Then was a gentleman?. Rusty8 (talk) 18:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• Please note that this list is produced by a fully publicaly funded government broadcaster (the ABC). It is forbidden for this broadcaster to advertise and it can receive no conceivable revenue from this list (it does tend to sell a CD containing parts of hottest 100 lists but this page can't possibly have any impact on sales of that CD).

Even if the above copyright discussion is correct, and I'm not convinced that it is, I've written to the ABC's legal department to see if they can provide a copyright waiver. They should be willing to do so. Please do not delete these lists until I hear back from them. 152.91.9.115 (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

May I point out that it is said "You may save a local copy or send it to your printer for your own personal use or in order to inform authorised and potential users about the ABC materials." - Which is what this page is doing? 203.87.75.134 (talk) 01:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Another short note - the idea that a subjective poll is copyright infringement. Does that also mean that a political election is the intellectual property of the electoral offices? Or those statioins that call it? Is the reporting of an election infringing on personal privacy laws? Replace the political candidates with musicians; their speeches with songs... The concept that the poll should be deleted as it is a subjective poll is fundamentally flawed, because ALL polls are subjective. I put it to Mr Gentleman that he continue this crusade to all articles regarding public opinion; because they are not Objective Facts. 203.87.75.134 (talk) 01:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Correct - e.g. the Australian federal results are copyrighted to the Australian Electoral Commission. However it's been previously determined that companies or organisations don't own data of this type. Orderinchaos 04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The argument for deletion is that copyright exists upon this work because of Triple J's effort in preparing and broadcasting of the list. However, Copyright does not prohibit the independent creation of a substantially similar or identical work, provided there is no actual reproduction or copying of the original work by any means.

The original work was presented in the form of a radio broadcast. The individual pieces of information (the song artist name and song title) contained within that broadcast cannot be copyrighted, regardless of the format in which it was presented. Copyright protects the particular manner in which the information was arranged and presented.

In addition, the information presented in the various list articles independently researched and written for Wikipedia. The articles contain additional information that distinguishes the article from the original work. The labour and skill of the article author(s) in compiling this information further distinguish these articles from the original work. --Camson (talk) 02:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

This argument has a lot of force. A public radio broadcast is like a public spectacle such as a horse race. While a horse race's own publishing of race results and other statistics associated with the event may be the subject of copyright, the race organiser could not prevent the publishing a report of the same results and stats based on independent observation of the relevant races. There is case law on this exact point in Australia and possibly elsewhere (I don't know, I've only studied Australian copyright law). 210.84.1.52 (talk) 09:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• I have received an email from Triple J regarding this issue, they are happy for Wikipedia to use the lists as they currently appear to appease this debate. Obviosly it is now in the hands of those who deal with adding copyright exemptions and hopefully all this business will be over with soon.Jimboss123 (talk) 14:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

This is without doubt, the most pointless debate i've ever seen. Obviously this list is going to stay, as it has every other year this list has been compiled. It is not a copywrite violation, and is general knowledge as it is free infomation. This punk kid trying to get it kicked off is simply trolling for this exact argument. Get over yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.168.50.252 (talk) 06:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Country of Origin?

Can we clarify what this is, please? Is it the country of origin of the song. Or of the band? Or of the individuals in the band? eg. System of a Down who (I think) originally come from Armenia as individuals, but (I think) live and record in America. I'd personally lean towards where the band was resident when they released the song, but either way it should be clarified. --Irrevenant [ talk ] 08:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a very fluid parameter. Basically, any Australian, whether living here or not (ie Nick Cave, Kylie etc) will always be classed as Australian. We'll try to claim the Kiwis who've crossed the ditch too, unless the .NZ posters claim them back. System of a Down are listed in their wiki entry as Armenian-American, so feel free to change it in this list to match that. Most other ones are straight forward, but no one really cares that much - it's more for general interest. The-Pope (talk) 06:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Page name

Once the AFD has gone, and assuming it still exists, I think we need to rename it to Triple J Hottest 100 of All Time, 2009 (or is it Alltime or All-time or All-Time???), as in 5 months time we'll be voting for the Hottest 100 of 2009 and that belongs in this slot. The previous all time polls should also be moved for consistency with this one, but leaving the current names as redirects. 1998 should be split into two separate articles, the existing title for the annual one and a new page for the alltime poll.The-Pope (talk) 07:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Triple j has it as "all time", two words, no hyphen. And yes, I agree this article needs to be re-named in the near future.  florrie  07:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Like you say, hopefully this AfD stuff will go away, then it would be good to re-arrange it like you have stated, the reason that i originally did it like this was to match up to 1998, but if someone wants to organise them both that would be great.Jimboss123 (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the article. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 08:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC).

No Bob Marley?

where on earth is Bob Marley on the list? I mean, really Bob Marley has to be on the list somewhere!

Analysis

Is there a role on this page for analysis of the results, or is that outside the framework of the page? Personally the fact that no female artist made the top 100 is, I think, significant... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.232.24 (talk) 09:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh come now, there are at LEAST 3.5 women represented:

• Meg White (White Stripes)
• The guest vocalist from teardrop (massive attack)
• Kim Deal (Pixies)
• Freddie Mercury (Queen) 124.190.154.40 (talk) 11:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Funny/homophobic! (Possibly both!) Yes, there are a few female musicians in there - Smashing Pumpkins and Dandy Warhols would also contribute there - but Massive Attack's "Teardrop" is the only femme-fronted track, and Liz Fraser isn't even in that band. Aretha Franklin? Patti Smith? Kate Bush? Joni Mitchell? Madonna, even? Nothin'.

Don't forget Shara Nelson on Massive Attack's "Unfinished Sympathy" further down the list. Orderinchaos 11:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest there is plenty of room for analysis/critical comment as long as it is referenced.  florrie  12:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. If it's analysis done by someone else and printed in a reliable source, it can be used. Orderinchaos 11:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ummm the numbers of songs per decade add up to way less than 100! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.37.77.9 (talk) 02:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm counting exactly 100 (could have been a vandal, or your maths just suck? ;) )

Came across a few links that will help in analysis - we could base some stats on this, male info here and this could assist, but it looks like a bit of a joke? And this is just insanely in-depth and probably concentrating on Twitter too much, nevertheless, something useful could be pulled out of it. If someone else kicks this off, I'd be happy to help out. k.i.a.c (talktome - contribs) 15:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hottest 100 1992

The hottest 100 in 1992 was a competition to enter your own hottest 100 list and the winner presented their selections as guest programmer on rage. The winner was Natasha Schaade. She was a big Cure fan and Nirvana did not feature. Great list otherwise. <www.abc.net.au/rage/guest/archive/1998.htm>Twoshabby (talk) 06:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

No girls?

No female performers as far as I can tell, except for a guest vocalist with Massive Attack. Are female performers not hot or something? cojoco (talk) 11:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It's called sexism.. and the fact that the voters (teenage boys mostly) actually don't like women much. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 16:05, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Green colouring for Australian excessive

The green colouring for Australian origins excessive. It is already clear form the text where the song originates, the green is initially confusing, and it makes the article excessively focused on Australia for no good reason (I believe the competition wasn't framed as Australia versus the world). Remove the green shading. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. No reason for it, it's superfluous. k.i.a.c (talktome - contribs) 04:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Also agree. Note, I believe the other JJJ hottest 100 lists also follow the green colouring. Alastair (talk) 07:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

They do. I have begun removing the shading. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Before you go rushing off to delete the green from the yearly articles, please discuss at maybe the Triple J Hottest 100, 2008 talk page as concensus was reached here.  florrie  14:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Triple J Hottest 100, 2009

I am correct in my understanding that "Triple J Hottest 100, 2009" does not exist, though it may do later this year, and that all incoming links to Triple J Hottest 100, 2009 should either not link, or should link directly to Triple J Hottest 100 of All Time, 2009? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It will be drawn or undertaken on January 26, 2010 (they do it on Australia Day for the previous year). So a page has not been created yet, the links should probably be changed to link here as that Redirect will eventually be replaced with next year's Hottest 100. k.i.a.c (talktome - contribs) 15:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Which songs had/have no music video?!

"However, certain songs were omitted from the broadcast due to the fact that they were never made into music videos."

What certain songs? Surely there are some TripleJ geeks on Wikipedia, who'd know the answer! When we're talking songs "of all time", it's not just some recent song from a struggling band, if you know what I mean. (In no exact order...) This list = Fame = Money = Music video! Torydude (talk) 09:17, 7 May 2012 (UTC)