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LaTeX 'typewriter' spacing
The article says "Text typeset using LaTeX digital typesetting software showing unconventional double spacing after a period, a frequent carryover among novices to typesetting who mistakenly use the spacing convention of typewriters". Yes, this is a common user fault, but no, LaTeX does not put a "double space" after a period. It puts a slightly longer space than between words, which is perfectly acceptable. If you write one space or two spaces or three spaces in LaTeX source following a period, the result is the same. So LaTeX in fact *corrects* such errors from the user. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah. It looks like someone's trying to put down LaTeX, while it actually got it right. First note that it is easier to read a sentence if the period has a larger space after it. This is still true today. Back in the day, typewriters used fixed width fonts, and as such all of the spaces were the same size. So to make the space larger, typists used two spaces after the period. However, for modern publishing, typesetting software like LaTeX automatically sets the space in (so typists no longer need to put the double space in). This is also true for most modern word processors as well. The extra space is there and it is not unconventional, but standard. If you want to get into why LaTeX's spacing algorithm is different, here's a place we can look: http://www.zinktypografie.nl/latex.php?lang=en or maybe we can look at the source code to identify what it's doing.2620:101:F000:702:5E93:A2FF:FE7A:3E63 (talk) 23:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Removal of David Jury quote from lead
I removed the quote from David Jury from the lead paragraph. My issues with the quote being in the lead include:
- Who David Jury is is unknown to the reader. I still don't know why he is relevant to the article and I have been looking into it.
- David Jury is mentioned nowhere else in the article
- David Jury's book is referenced nowhere else in the article
- If David Jury was worth quoting in the lead then the reader should know from the use of material from him within the article that he is someone who's opinion on this subject should be taken with special weight.
- As it was when I first removed the quote from the lead, there was absolutely no information about him, just a name, and the name of a book he wrote. With the only time any material from the book is cited is for that quote.
- Now, the full extent of the information about him in the article is that he is "Head of Graphic Design at Colchester Institute in England". The brief information I am able to find on the Colchester Institute from Wikipedia and their website does not lend him the immediate weight to say that he is important to this topic. It does not appear that along with Hairdressing and Beauty Therapy that the Colchester Institute is a hotbed of research into topography.
- Looking into his book a bit more I find that it is published by Robovision Books – yes, it is a red link, there is no article on them – the Publisher's catalog. Which links to Issuu which appears to be a self publishing house. On Robovision Book's facebook page their first paragraph about themselves states "Our subjects include photography, art, design, fashion, fabrics & needlecrafts." Again, that does not lend anything to implying that David Jury's opinion should carry special weight for readers of this article.
If David Jury was extensively used as a reference elsewhere in the article, then it might be reasonable to have a quote from him in the lead. It is an example of WP:UNDUE to have the only reference to this person be a quote in the lead. Based on the indications that the publishing house which published his book may be engaged in self publishing, I would argue that his book is not even an appropriate reference.
There just isn't any reason, or need, for that quote to be there. It being there does not improve improve the article. In fact having his quote there, without providing the reader with any reason for David Jury's opinion to mater, detracts from the article instead of enhancing it.
- Further, looking on Google Books, I found that the quote is not even on page 63 as cited. It is, however, on page 152.
- — Makyen (talk) 09:23, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for noting the issue with the reference. I used the wrong Jury book as the source. It was page 63, but I had the wrong title.
- I am unclear why much of what you listed is grounds for removing the passage. Perhaps you could explain what WP policy supports 2–4 in your list, for example.
- I'm not overly concerned that this topic is not covered in the article. WP:LEDE states that the lede should "define the topic, establish context, [and] explain why the topic is notable" as well as summarize the article. The quote establishes context and indicates the importance/notability of the topic. It is true that significant material should not be covered in the lede if not covered in the article. If this is "significant", the manner in which this should be handled is for someone to add material in the article to supplement it, not remove material that contributes to the article.
- The book is a reliable source as per WP:RS. You can find out more about David Jury at http://www.davidjury.com/. It would be possible to add that as an external link to David Jury's name in the lede as opposed to one of his credentials if you'd like since there is as yet no Wikipedia article on him that provides a summary of his works and credentials. On the other hand, if you are overly concerned with the reliability of Jury, as well as his work cited, and the publisher (all three are considered when judging a reliable source at Wikipedia), you can ask for another opinion at the reliable source noticeboard.
- There are also alternatives to consider before simply deleting sourced material on Wikipedia. You can move it to a different section. You could also move it to the talk page with a note to include it later if the appropriate conditions are met (although I disagree that there is an issue regarding the latter here).
- Thanks for your interest. Airborne84 (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
List of professions in introduction
The second paragraph in the introduction states: "Typography is performed by typesetters, compositors, typographers, graphic designers, art directors, manga artists, comic book artists, graffiti artists, clerical workers, and everyone else who arranges type for a product." Typesetters and compositors are the same profession, and both are also now referred to as typographers. Also, manga artists, comic book artists, and graffiti artists (in general) work with lettering, not type, and thus do not practice typography. Cityscaping (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Some times it is useful to use two different words that mean much the same thing --- typesetter versus compositor --- as a way of introducing topic-specific synonyms to a general readership. "Typesetter" is a self-explanatory compound noun, and in the publishing and printing business the industry term use is "compositor". If I were to edit the lead para now, deleting "typesetters" and leaving only "compositors", the industry-specific nomenclature would obfuscate the text and make it harder for a general readership to comprehend. So I'm leaving both terms in as a way of educating readers.
- Your assertion that comic book creators mainly work with lettering and not type is not true. This was recently challenged by a very highly-regarded professional colleague of mine in the type busines, Thomas Phinney. I challenged it and reverted his edit and Thomas conceded he got it wrong. F.Y.I: at present comic books are are lettered using digital typefaces and fonts, mainly those made by industry specialist Nate Piekos (Blambot Fonts) and his rivals. Hand-lettering in comic book production is a fast-diminishing craft and art. Arbo (talk)
Experimental typeface uses
I think when David Carson is mentioned his significance of breaking the rules of Modernist graphic design should be stressed. The end of the modernist movement began with artists like Carson abandoning what they were told they had to do and treating design more like art for art's sake.22.214.171.124 (talk) 02:24, 17 October 2015 (UTC)