Talk:USS Holland (SS-1)

USS Holland Great Peconic Bay Sea Trials

The USS Holland was tested in Great Peconic Bay Long Island NY, launched via railways from North Fork Shipyard, New Suffolk LI located on the North Shore of Long Island. The facilities and machine shop of the civilian shipyard were well suited for the testing. Peconic Bay due to its calm waters and the fact the Holland was not an ocean going ship, so the protected waters were ideal for sea trials. Today the LI resturant Old Mill Inn rte 25 in Southold has photos of the Holland in the Galley-Ho room which once was a resturant located at the North Fork Shipyard, New Suffolk, NY. Rover411 (talk) 17:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

"Philadelphia, Pennsylvania"

The article mentions the Holland being sold as scrap "to Henry A. Hitner & Sons, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania". According to Wikipedia policy, that should say "Philadelphia", rather than "Philadelphia, Pennsylvania".

The relevant policy is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). It's a long read, but the part that matters here is this: Philadelphia is on a list of about thirty large U.S. cities with uncommon names that, according to the A.P. Stylebook, should be referred to by city name alone, rather than the city, state format generally used. Wikipedia adopts that A.P. Stylebook rule.

You can see that the policy is a good one by considering the relative utility of the two forms to various kinds of readers. Some people know that Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania. Many do not – but of these, a large proportion would respond to the information that Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania with the question, "What's Pennsylvania?". One way or the other, readers for whom the ten-syllable form is more useful than the five-syllable form are relatively rare.

We might consider trying to be helpful to all readers, by rewriting the sentence to say that Holland was sold "to Henry A. Hitner & Sons, of the city of Philadelphia in the state of Pennsylvania, in the United States of America." But the simpler and more practical course is to say "Philadelphia" and link the word to the "Philadelphia" article. People who know what Philadelphia is are spared a digression which has no relevance to USS Holland. People who do not can click the link. That's how Wikipedia is organized.

I noticed this sentence a few days ago, and boldly changed it to conform to the policy. My edit was reverted, and I saw that the editor who reverted it has done a lot of work on this article, and is partly responsible for its high quality. So I'm adding this talk-page section to solicit the opinion of people (including that editor) who are interested in Wikipedia in general and the USS Holland article in particular: How should the location of the scrap dealer who bought the boat be described? Is there any reason that Wikipedia's policy for such situations should not be followed? TypoBoy (talk) 23:59, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I always understood that the guideline only applied to article titles, not usage in articles. Perhaps it was changed since I last read it, as often happens due to guideline creep. Since you're apparently on a crusade to enforce the guidelines woddenly, who am I to object? I won't revert you again. I don't get paid to do this either. Of course, the guidelines may change again, and you'll have to do this all over again. - BilCat (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

From rereading the guidelines, it does specify article titles, but doesn't mention usage in other articles. - BilCat (talk) 00:26, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, BilCat. You make a good point about the instability of guidelines, but I'm prepared to take the risk.

The first sentence of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) article makes it clear that the policies there are not limited to article titles:

This page describes conventions for determining the titles of Wikipedia articles on places and for the use of place names in Wikipedia articles.

I'm not sure my course of action is a "crusade" – but I'm not completely certain it isn't. There's a certain style of writing that people seem to think of as "encyclopedic", which involves cramming every detail into a page that is even tangentially related, so we wind up with sentences like, "Fiorello LaGuardia was a mayor of New York City, New York, United States, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Local Group, Universe". That style misses the whole point of hypertext, which is one of Wikipedia's central strengths. (I admit that this is an exaggeration – but I can certainly show you occurrences of "New York City, New York". I have a hard time picturing the reader who says, "Ah, THAT New York City!) TypoBoy (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Holland hand drawing

Is it possible to replace the hand drawing of the Holland that is on this page? There are many images available from a simple Google search that are accurate and professionally prepared. Thank you for your consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaveJ576 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)