Talk:Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr

Error with Mother's name

Umm Kulthum's mother was Habiba bin Kharijah not Asmaa bint Umays. Now, this leads us to understand that she did not move to Ali ibn Abu Talib's house with Asmaa bin Umays. Caye11 (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Editor has reversed who got sick based on his/her novel interpretation of primary sources

Previous version	Ishan87's version of 14:41, 17 August 2021‎	Arabic Wikipedia
Aisha sent Salim, a grandson of Umar, to Umm Kulthum with the instruction to suckle him ten times so that Aisha would be considered his foster-aunt. Umm Kulthum nursed him three times and then fell ill. The foster-relationship was therefore not completed, and Salim did not become eligible to see Aisha unveiled.	Aisha sent Salim, a grandson of Umar to her sister Umm Kulthum when he was of suckling age, with the instruction to breastfeed him ten times so that Aisha would be considered his foster-aunt, but he fell ill after she nursed him three times. So the foster-relationship was therefore incomplete, and Salim did not become eligible to see Aisha unveiled.	وكانت عائشة بنت أبي بكر، أرسلت سالم بن عبد الله بن عمر إلى أمّ كلثوم لترضعه؛ ليدخل عليها، فأرضعته ثلاث مرّات، ثمّ مرضت. Google translation: Aisha, the daughter of Abu Bakr, had sent Salem bin Abdullah bin Omar to Umm Kulthum to breastfeed him; To enter her, she breastfed him three times, then she fell ill.
References

An editor has changed the story about Umm Kulthum being a wet-nurse to Salim ibn Abd-Allah, from Umm Kulthum getting sick to Salim getting sick. The story is based on a primary source (a hadith), and the editor has accepted that most/all English translations of the primary source say that it was the woman who got sick, not the child. The editor has said that a translation of the primary source into his/her own language has it the other way round, so he/she has changed to be that way.

Ishan87 - Actually I'm not quite sure here after looking more into this. In my native language translation it clearly says "he fell ill" but most of the English translations in the Internet is saying- "she fell ill". So it'd be best if someone who can understand classic Arabic would have a look at this.

The Arabic Wikipedia article also has the woman getting sick, so English-language Wikipedia was not unique in having the woman, not the child getting sick.

The story does not make sense if it were the child who got sick. A sick wet-nurse could make the child sick, so it makes sense to stop her breastfeeding the child. But a sick child still needs milk, or the child will die, so there would have been every reason to continue getting the woman to breastfeed the child.

Editors should not be changing articles in line with their own novel interpretations of primary sources. The article should go back to the old version.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@Toddy1 So you don't even know the incident and still you persist on interfering in other editor's changes? You're still pointing out my honest admissions but leaving out the details of my reasonings! This is hypocrisy mate! Since you brought this to the talk page please share my full discussion with you about this issue where I've explained everything to you on your talk page.

Now here's the story of that incident-

Aisha(R) as a "mother of tge believers" was an important teacher of Quran, hadith & shariah to other Muslims. Abdullah ibn Umar(R) was also a leading hadith narrator, so Aisha's intention was to make his son Salim an expert of hadith when he would grow up. It would've been easier for her if he had a foster relationship with her because the rulings of hijab. That's why she sent Salim to her younger sister Umm Kulthum(R) when he was still under 2 years old (which's a mandatory ruling for foster parenthood with a child in islam, and he still being at his suckling age is also clearly mentioned in the original source so I included it in my edit as well) for the future education purpose, not that he lacked a foster mother before. Having more than one foster mother was common in Arabia back then, our prophet(S) himself nursed from two women excluding his own mother. However Salim got sick after 3 times (as qouted in the hadith) (probably he had a stomach problem because of which it couldn't adapt to the new mother's milk. It does happen a lot to many infants), so he was sent back to his own mother. As a result the foster relationship was not established, since according to the shariah, it requires at least 5 times (10 times was the previous ruling which was reduced later to 5 times, but 10 is still considered best option) breastfeeding for a foster relationship to be acceptable.

Now, having said that, even if the English translation that was previously used in this page (which you're insistent on) was correct (which isn't), still it wouldn't have made much of a difference. I edited this topic to make it more accurate and clear for readers to understand this issue that often causes confusion. Ishan87 (talk) 14:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. None of which address the issue, which is that you are substituting your interpretation of a primary source for text based on a translation into the English language. Wikipedia policy is that primary sources should be used with care, and that any interpretation of primary sources should be based on what published secondary sources say. If you are saying that published English language translations of the primary source have got it wrong, go and write a magazine article on it, and then someone can cite that as a source for the Wikipedia article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

In their edit of 18:41, 18 August 2021, ParthikS8 wrote "He is reporting that she fell ill. (مَرِضَتْ) is third person, female singular, if it was first person then he would be reporting that he himself fell ill."-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

The double tag at the top of this page

The double tag at the top of this page looks weird and kind of makes the whole article look questionable, so can you remove at least one? Ishan87 (talk) 23:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

If the article has the tags, it is more likely that someone will try to fix the article's problems. Each tag puts the article on different lists of articles requiring cleanup. In addition, the presence of the tags alerts readers to the fact that the article requires cleanup. Perhaps this will lead to someone using reliable secondary sources to improve the article. It could be you....-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)