Talk:University of St Andrews

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University Logo/ Coat of Arms[edit]

there's been a bit of disagreement over the university logo in the info box, with somebody putting in a v. small version that includes the university's name in it, this is obviously wrong, it has to fill the box and not have the name, the issue of the lions penis is up to someone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xyphoid (talkcontribs)

Make the university infobox narrower[edit]

I suggest making the infobox narrower as similar to other universities as it is taking up space in the main introduction section to the university. Captain108 (talk) 15:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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University of St Andrews' ranking[edit]

Edit in question is this one: [1]

I think in spite of the three sources that say the University of St Andrews is ranked third, it should not be stated as so for the following reasons:

  1. The three most widely-followed university rankings are the ARWU, QS World University Rankings and Times Higher Education World University Rankings. The University of St Andrews is not anywhere near third nationally in these rankings. Looking at the ARWU for example, Cambridge, Oxford, UCL, Imperial, Manchester and Edinburgh are all ranked higher. The situation on the QS ranking is no different. There are 10 UK universities in the top 50, and the University of St Andrews is not listed.
  2. The other problem with this is that it contradicts the current section on "Rankings and Reputation" in this article. ARWU national rankings puts it at 29-33, which is obviously not third. QS national puts it at 12th, THE national puts it at 13th. Only Guardian and The Sunday Times put the university at 3rd.

I think therefore that to claim the university is ranked third is too strong. Certain rankings might, but the major ones do not, and positioning the claim in the lede is inappropriate. Banedon (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Where is your source for your first bullet point? The most widely followed rankings NATIONALLY in the UK are arguably The Guardian and The Times and Sunday Times. At no point does the statement lay claim to rank top 3 in the UK in global rankings, only in national rankings. This is a matter of national rankings vs global rankings with many other university pages paying focus to one of only national rankings or global rankings. The only change which needs to be made is emphasising that it is ranked 3rd in national league tables rather than deleting the statement altogether. Kioj156 (talk) 10:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Source for first bullet point: [2]. Note the selective nature of the rankings discussed. There are more rankings out there, e.g. CWTS Leiden Ranking, not discussed. National rankings can be easily interpreted as "among all universities in the country in a global international ranking". Even if the reader is savvy enough to recognize it for what it is used here, as can be seen from Rankings of universities in the United Kingdom, there are at least three national rankings of which only two (?) of the three rankings rank the University of St Andrews third. The statement is too strong. If the statement is to be retained, the University of St Andrews' corresponding rankings in international tables should also be given, and it should say that the university is ranked within the top 5, as opposed to third. Banedon (talk) 14:20, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
From your source, "Shanghai Ranking is less well-known on these shores" and "The simple truth is that there is no such thing as a definitive table", the source does not mention at all that these are the most widely followed league tables. Look at every other wikipedia page for British universities, e.g. Surrey and Exeter, they all make mention of their national league table placing (see national league tables, St Andrews is third again in this table). The statement is not too strong as Times Higher Education has collated the results of the three national league tables and placed it third [3] - this is source number 10 in the wikipedia article. Kioj156 (talk) 15:38, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
I see you're after stronger sources. Consider these two then: [4][5]. The ARWU is the most widely cited international ranking list; the fact that it's "less well-known on these shores" is an argument from ignorance. There is no definitive ranking in the sense that different tables use different methodologies, and therefore yield different results; it is for the user of the tables to decide how relevant the results are to him or her. However it's also because of this lack of objectiveness that giving the absolute statement "this university is ranked third" is too strong. At the very least the statement has to be "this university is ranked third by two of the three major national rankings". I'll further note that the University of Exeter page explicitly states that it is a national league table being discussed (with links), while the University of Surrey page does not mention the university's position in national league tables in the lede.
I'm going to outright revise the lede. If you want to edit the University of Surrey & Exeter pages, feel free. Banedon (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Here's another source on the three major rankings: [6]. I quote, "There are currently three major international rankings that receive widespread commentary: The Academic World Ranking of Universities, the QS World University Rankings and the Times Higher Education Rankings." Wikipedia is not a British encyclopedia. I continue to think the lede should mention the university's ARWU ranking (and THE / QS as well). Banedon (talk) 07:49, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Well we have clearly not gotten anywhere. I suggest informal mediation at DR/N. What do you think? Banedon (talk) 00:41, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I've posted a request at DR/N: [7]. Kioj156, your contribution is appreciated. Banedon (talk) 12:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
It's not just about ARWU. You're removing the Times Higher Arts & Humanities and Social Sciences placing without giving a valid reason. As I said before, there are plenty of other university wikipedia pages which make mention of only national or the global rankings they perform strongest in (e.g. Durham University). Kioj156 (talk) 13:11, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
A moderator has already responded at DR/N. We should continue the discussion there. Banedon (talk) 13:13, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Third Opinion[edit]

A Third Opinion has been requested. Maybe I don't understand the question. The existing statement is that St. Andrews is rated as the third-best in the United Kingdom. There doesn't seem to be disagreement there. That statement doesn't say anything about a world-wide ranking for St. Andrews. I am willing either to leave the current statement alone as substantiated by the sources, or to answer a different question about worldwide ranking. For now, I am removing the Third Opinion as answered based on how I understand it.

See the box in University of St Andrews#Rankings and reputation ... basically (and I freely admit I may be biased here) there are two kinds of university rankings, one national (i.e. only UK universities) and one international (ranking the entire world's universities). The University of St Andrews is ranked third by two of the three widely-followed UK-only league tables; the last of the three ranks it fifth. On international tables however it is ranked much lower (even among UK universities only). For example, the ARWU, an international table, has the University of St Andrews 29-33 on a national basis, and 301-400 on a global basis. The question is whether to keep the statement in the lede given this context.
Thanks for the third opinion! Banedon (talk) 10:37, 25 April 2016 (UTC)