Talk:Unsimulated sex

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

"It is rare to see hardcore scenes in mainstream cinema"[edit]

What Defines "Porn"?[edit]

Many of the films listed here straddle (no pun intended) the line between "high art" and "pornography". What, exactly, is the criteria here? I added Cheeky! a while back, but it seems to have been removed. If 9 Songs and Caligula can be listed here, then why can't this film be listed (or, for that matter, the rest of Tinto Brass' films)? Is this list not supposed to include "skin flicks"? When most people think of "porn", they think of films that revolve entirely around actors having unsimulated sex with each other, not silly Italian sex comedies with a few scenes of sexual contact.--76.106.233.222 (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree this demonstrates a scope problem in this article. 9 Songs simply alternates music with lengthy explicit sex scenes comparable to those in porn movies. I reverted a recent addition of the big budget porn movie Pirates (which I haven't seen) in its softcore-edited release, something I felt isn't nothing novel or worth listing comprehensively. A content-based distinction between porn and not-porn is not possible, and distinctions based on production, distribution channels, or artistic intent are either arbitrary or subjective.
My suggestion would be instead of attempting to list films comprehensively, this article should be more about the subject of unsimulated sex in film. While this article is currently dominated by a list, there is enough prose content (albeit biased toward specifics about each film) to at least start a meaningful prose article. In well-written non-list article, a paragraph on Tinto Brass's ouvre would probably have a place, as would a short section on the history of filmed porn (with a {{Details}} link to Pornographic movies#History).
If someone else wishes to spin off a proper List of not really pornographic movies with unsimulated sex article, they can figure out how to draw the line there. / edg 19:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I've seen all Zodiac-films myself, and I consider them to be porn, basically. There's a silly plot to them, but it's mainly an excuse to show the sex acts. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Also, I don't think any of the mainstream actors in the series actually performed any sex acts themselves, but they were performed by close-up stand-ins. The star of the series, comedian Ole Søltoft, did never even perform nude, IIRC. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As a belated response to the original post, Tinto Brass's films qualify as mainstream and should be included -- if they contain unsimulated sexual acts. Although Brass is very good at making it seem real (I've been fooled a few times), the majority of the films (if not all of them) contain only simulated sex (male organs represented by prosthetics, for example). Even Caligula, it has been reported elsewhere, had its hardcore sequences added by another party and not Brass. So if a Tinto Brass film legitimately qualifies (as does Caligula) and the source to confirm can be found, then include it. As to the other question "what is porn and what isn't" the use of the term "mainstream" means films made by studios other than those involved specifically in the production of hardcore sex films and videos. A Google search easily provides the distinction in most cases. Makers of so-called "Skinemax" films and TV series and the dozens of made-for-video erotic films of the 1990s were not porn producers, and in 99% of the cases the sex scenes depicted are simulated and would not qualify anyway. There are exceptions - several Vivid films, for example, have played movie festivals, and Cafe Flesh and several other porn films of the 1970s and 80s were circulated as mainstream films with the hardcore bits cut out (some of these films even recruited Hollywood actors like Cameron Mitchell to appear in non-sex roles). These, however, are rare enough to be considered on a case-by-case basis. If anyone is having difficult telling the difference, the easy thing to do is take a legitimately unsimulated mainstream film like Shortbus or All About Anna, and watch it alongside a film with confirmed simulation like Lie with Me, or for that matter a standard porn video. The difference should be obvious. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me what the art has to do with porn? Where is " the art" in porn and what is "high art"?. Why, for example, John Holmes' films are not considered as "art films"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.128.205 (talk) 11:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Wot about .....[edit]

I understand that there is a movie or possibly a video clip starring Madonna_(entertainer) where she is actually having sex with her male co-star. Old_Wombat (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Doubtful of its existence, and even so, I don't think it'd qualify on this list. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
This is probably 1993 film Body of evidence, uncensored Europian version. (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.136.55 (talk)

El Topo[edit]

Alejandro Jodorowsky has made claims that he actually raped the actress playing Mara in this film. One source: [3]. It's hard to tell if this should be taken literally or not, however. Not sure if it's worthy of inclusion on this list. (You can't really see anything, so the director/star's claims are the only evidence supporting it. Not sure if the actress has made any statements on the subject.) Lurlock (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Jodorowsky explicitly confirmed this. [[4]] 20:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs)
I have some concerns about the wording of this in the article. When he claims he "raped" her does that mean she did not know he was going to do it, and worse still, she did not consent??? Because that seems a very unlikely thing to admit to doing, as rape is a crime. I'm inclined to alter the phrase to "he claims the rape scene had unsimiulated intercourse" or words to that effect. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
From Jodorowsky's own book:

"When I wanted to do the rape scene, I explained to [Mara Lorenzio] that I was going to hit her and rape her. There was no emotional relationship between us, because I had put a clause in all the women's contracts stating that they would not make love with the director. We had never talked to each other. I knew nothing about her. We went to the desert with two other people: the photographer and a technician. No one else. I said, 'I'm not going to rehearse. There will be only one take because it will be impossible to repeat. Roll the cameras only when I signal you to.' Then I told her, 'Pain does not hurt. Hit me.' And she hit me. I said, 'Harder.' And she started to hit me very hard, hard enough to break a rib...I ached for a week. After she had hit me long enough and hard enough to tire her, I said, 'Now it's my turn. Roll the cameras.' And I really...I really...I really raped her. And she screamed."

Irene Jacob[edit]

I'm in doubt about two movies where scenes involving Irene Jacob seem to be real:

La vie d'Adele[edit]

La vie d'Adele displays explicit and unsimulated lesbian sex acts[[6]]. Should it be included in the list?

La vie d'Adele[edit]

La vie d'Adele displays explicit and unsimulated lesbian sex acts[[7]]. Should it be included in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.196.229.158 (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

WR. Mysteries of the Organism[edit]

This film should be excluded from the list. "Manual stimulation of the penis" is not a reason for being it here. In addition, this is displayed in a nonsexual content. At the very begining of the film there are some real sex scenes but they are inserted here from another film ( an old Soviet sexually - educational film ). In fictional part there are many sex scenes but they are all simulated. (Film contains both documentary and fictional parts). BTW, the film can be found on the internet. 10:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs)

Skin like Sun[edit]

This film should be removed from the list as IMDB is not reliable sourse.Baba i deda (talkcontribs) — Preceding undated comment added 14:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Removed Lies[edit]

Blog is an unreliable source and also the page does not exist.Baba i deda (talkcontribs) — Preceding undated comment added 08:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.)[edit]

I have re-established the entry for this film. Although I'm not sure that IMDB is a poor source of information I would think it better that I am asked for further or more information/sources than someone arbitrarily removing my entry to this article.

The site that represents the company that made the film has this review[1] “Erotic realism with more than a touch of high art”

– ForTheGirls.com

As a recent 'arty' sex film from a non-English-speaking nation there is not a huge amount of press about it.

It does have reviews here[2]

Montalban (talk) 10:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

References
  1. ^ Skin.Like.Sun at Blue Artichoke Films
  2. ^ [1]

Ex Drummer[edit]

Maybe you should cite some reliable source for this film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs) 13:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2014[edit]

Please add the movie "Kynodontas" (english title 'Dogtooth', year 2009) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1379182/) as it contains masturbation and closeups of female body parts. Bbsnowman (talk) 22:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done IMDB is not a reliable source - and such a source needs to explain why it is particularly notable, or it will not be included in the list. Arjayay (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song[edit]

Melvin Van Peebles' Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song saw Van Peebles performing in a whole host of unsimulated sex scenes over the course of the film. Van Peebles supposedly even contracted a sexual transmitted disease during the making of the film – and then filed for worker's compensation (he was successful). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.19.253.11 (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Caligula[edit]

Caligula was the first ever motion picture to feature both established actors and pornographic scenes. The uncut version of the film does include unsimulated sex scenes including penetration, fellatio and ejaculation – most of which were shot by Bob Guccione. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.19.253.11 (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Not sure what you're requesting to be added here as Caligula was one of the very first films added to this list. The statement about it being the first-ever with major actors to feature this sort of activity needs a source. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Q/Desire and[edit]

It should be noted that the North American version of Q, titled Desire, has the hardcore footage edited out in favor of alternate angles. As of 2014 an uncensored DVD has yet to be issued in North America. The listing for Marfa Girl doesn't indicate any unsimulated elements; just because it's a Larry Clark film doesn't mean this content exists in it. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2015[edit]

please add:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_by_the_Lake

source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_by_the_Lake#Production

Delphonics (talk) 17:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done: [8]. G S Palmer (talkcontribs) 18:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Silip[edit]

I saw Silip (even in slow-mo) and found no evidence or even a hint of Unsimulated sex. It is very graphic and explicit, but all scenes may be simulated or unsimulated. The provided and quoted source about a rape scene shoot in "'method' manner" and that the men were encouraged to fondle "more than necessary" does not even indicate unsimutaled sex.

Remove silip from the list or provide better evidence.

85.179.128.121 (talk) 14:32, 24 January 2015 (UTC) Joe

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc (open channel) 15:20, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done as we shouldn't be claiming a film contains unsimulated sex without evidence. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 03:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Wetlands[edit]

The given citation for Wetlands does not indicate anywhere that there is unsimulated sex in the film. I marked it as having failed verification, but it should probably be removed if there isn't any better citation given. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, the source provided for this film fails verification, as it never uses the word "unsimulated" in the entire article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:56, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree with you on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
The last time I linked to Wiktionary in order to define terms, the arguments dragged on even longer because there was debate as to whether Wiktionary was reliable. So, I'll skip that and go directly to a better source, namely Merriam-Webster:
Explicit 
"open in the depiction of nudity or sexuality"
Graphic 
"vividly or plainly shown or described"
I agree that these terms could be used to describe unsimulated sex, but the reality is that they are not synonymous with the term. A sex scene can be explicit or graphic without being unsimulated. It's like the difference between "She had sex with an elderly man" and "She had sex with an older man". In the first sentence, there's no statement as to the female's age, and it's entirely possible that two elderly people have had sex. In the second sentence, an explicit acknowledgement is made of the difference in the ages. In this case, "explicit" or "graphic" sex could mean that the simulated sex scene was shown in greater detail than is normal for a mainstream film. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:40, 31 January 2015 (UTc)


According to what was said about terminology, the sources for the film Clip(2012) are also problematic. The sources use only the term "explicit" to describe sexual content, but the word "unsimulated" was never mentioned. In fact, there are no claims at all to indicate to any unsimulated sex act. And since the main theme of the film is sexploitation of one minor girl, according to WP:BLPREMOVE the sources must be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs)


Sourcing standards for this article – WP:BLP[edit]

Sorry to make such a heavy-handed drive-by edit, but I've just commented out five listed films that were tagged with {{failed verification}} – A Single Girl, Enter the Void, Daniel & Ana, I Want Your Love, and Wetlands. My reasoning is that claims that movie sex scenes are unsimulated are claims about living persons, which are subject to WP:Biographies of living persons. So, per WP:BLPREMOVE, contested claims need to be removed rather than tagged. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 09:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I can not really follow you. Why is a claim that a movie has unsimulated sex autumatically a claim about living people? For instance claiming Enter the Void contains scenes of unsimulated sex (which you can simply verify by watching the movie carefully) does not say who of the many actors in the movie had sex nor do we know if they are still alive. The claim is too vague to be subjected to WP:Biographies of living persons without naming them.
Titule (talk) 23:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
But it's not only the actors – a director or producer might not appreciate a false claim they were involved in a movie containing unsimulated sex.
Please be careful with the idea that you can verify that sex is unsimulated just by watching a movie. I'm not convinced non-experts could really tell what is unsimulated and what is cleverly done using prosthetics, digital manipulation, and so on. "Graphic" does not necessarily equal "unsimulated".
If we don't know whether an individual is alive or dead, BLP still applies per WP:BDP.
Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 09:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Okay about the other involved people and dead or alive point..
I see that (hypothetically) an unsimulated sex act can be simulated by film tricks, but then: who can we trust? Any producer and actor can claim that unsimulated sex occurred in the movie just to get publicity (for that reason I would delete [Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song] as I don't see any hint of unsimulated sex in the movie).
Also, putting a prosthesis into a vagina is still unsimulated sex to me. And at some point, the special effect to make simulated look like unsimulated is too expensive just to achieve, well: what? A bit like biting into a plastic apple instead of eating it for real. If you want to show some big expensive stars having sex that seems unsimulated, you need expensive computer effects (e.g. Nymphomaniac..BTW: why does that movie count? It's faked, isn't it?), but having unknown background actors doing it is simply not worth the money. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Titule (talkcontribs)

Removing films with supposed unsimulated sex from list for lack of verified sources[edit]

Das Stundenhotel von St. Pauli

The citation to support this film's inclusion (a contemporary review in Der Spiegel) makes no reference to the "authentic" sex scenes and I have found nothing else about this otherwise unnotable genre film. I am removing it till someone finds a RS saying there are unsimulated sex scenes in this film. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Fantasm

The citation to support this film's inclusion actually compares it to hardcore films, specifically saying it's a softcore film, as does the film's own Wikipedia page. Removed. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 00:26, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song

While the claim (possibly true) that Van Peebles got worker's compensation for contracting a STD "on the job" is provocative and amusing, it does not prove that any unsimulated sex appears in the film. He may have had the STD anyway and took advantage of it and got lucky with the pay-out. The X rating went to lots of films in the 1970s and the fact it ended up with an R rating after all says a lot. Nothing about it on the film's page, which I think people would have noticed. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 00:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

A Single Girl

The reference is to a rather short clip on XHamster (not an RS). ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Marfa Girl

The source doesn't mention anything about unsimulated sex at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.137.17 (talk) 11:32, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Une vraie jeune fille

IMDb is not reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs) 15:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Le journal de Lady M

Review in Variety says the scenes are 'hot' and vaguely implies that the sex could be real, whereas a short Time Out review simply calls it softcore. [1] BTW thanks for the help with this Baba, it looks to me like the weeding we're doing has been needed for some time. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 19:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Water in Milk Exists

There are no reliable sources given for the claims made about unsimulated sex acts.

Actually there are plenty. Google is our friend. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
That being said, it's debatable whether this is a 'mainstream film' in that it's really a work of video art. If nothing else comes of this, at least I added it and the main link to the list of the artist's recent exhibitions on his home page. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 06:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2015[edit]

Manju1971 (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Grayfell (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.)[edit]

Please remove the entry for this film, as this article deals with _mainstream_ films that happen to contain unsimulated sex acts. Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.) is the second movie by Murielle Scherre, the first one was called "Je fais du porno et j'aime ça" (I make porn and I like it)[1], a collection of shorts that was offered for sale with a Belgian magazine and is still for sale.

IMDB lists Des Jours Plus Belles Que La Nuit (aka Skin. Like. Sun.) as a documentary, which would exclude it from this article as such; it is furthermore simply a sex movie (porn or not, that is up for argument), with little or no plot other than the sex acts. The source you quote (ForTheGirls.com) is simply a porn site with a fancy 'erotica' name.

LuperT23 (talk) 14:12, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

References
  1. ^ [2]
Yup. Looks like it's been removed, so I'm setting this to answered. Grayfell (talk) 06:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)


A Scream in the Streets[edit]

I listed this film here, but I'll most probably remove it as after I watched the film I'am not shore it contains unsimulated scenes. And the scenes are definitely very close to hardcore. But, I have several questions anyway: 1. Can this film be found at megavideo.com and if it can, are there the characters for all the cast, especially actresses? 2. I really need a help to find out the name of actress who played a girl in massage parlor. I know it is difficult (the actress is not well-known) but maybe somebody could find out her name in some way. THANKS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs) 11:18, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2015[edit]

Unsimulated sex is the presentation in a film of sex scenes where the actors engage in an actual sex act, and are not just miming or simulating the actions. At one time in the United Sates...

"United Sates" should be changed to "United States"

Unsimulated sex is the presentation in a film of sex scenes where the actors engage in an actual sex act, and are not just miming or simulating the actions. At one time in the United States... 72.66.43.136 (talk) 03:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 03:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)