Talk:Unsimulated sex

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"It is rare to see hardcore scenes in mainstream cinema"[edit]

Pending changes[edit]

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Requested additions: The Band and Histoire de Sexes[edit]

There have been two notable mainstream films (both directed by women, as it happens) containing unsimulated sex that should be added to the list. "The Band" (2009, dir. Anna Brownfield) an Australian film released by Breaking Glass Pictures and available on DVD, contains at least two unsimulated coitus scenes, several male masturbation scenes, and a lesbian scene. The making-of featurette on the DVD goes into unusual detail in having the director and stars describe the process of shooting the film. Second film is the French release "Histoires de sexe(s)" (2009, dir. Ovide, US DVD title "Sex Stories"), also released by Breaking Glass Pictures. This one is an example of "mainstream pornography" in that it stars noted European porn stars in a number of sexual sequences, yet the film was apparently not made for porn audiences. That might be enough to make it a debatable addition. But definitely "The Band" fits the criteria for this list. 68.146.81.123 (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to add "The Manson Family" as a film with unsimulated sex. here is a source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118840/trivia?tr0692530 24.118.57.193 (talk) 01:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

What Defines "Porn"?[edit]

Many of the films listed here straddle (no pun intended) the line between "high art" and "pornography". What, exactly, is the criteria here? I added Cheeky! a while back, but it seems to have been removed. If 9 Songs and Caligula can be listed here, then why can't this film be listed (or, for that matter, the rest of Tinto Brass' films)? Is this list not supposed to include "skin flicks"? When most people think of "porn", they think of films that revolve entirely around actors having unsimulated sex with each other, not silly Italian sex comedies with a few scenes of sexual contact.--76.106.233.222 (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree this demonstrates a scope problem in this article. 9 Songs simply alternates music with lengthy explicit sex scenes comparable to those in porn movies. I reverted a recent addition of the big budget porn movie Pirates (which I haven't seen) in its softcore-edited release, something I felt isn't nothing novel or worth listing comprehensively. A content-based distinction between porn and not-porn is not possible, and distinctions based on production, distribution channels, or artistic intent are either arbitrary or subjective.
My suggestion would be instead of attempting to list films comprehensively, this article should be more about the subject of unsimulated sex in film. While this article is currently dominated by a list, there is enough prose content (albeit biased toward specifics about each film) to at least start a meaningful prose article. In well-written non-list article, a paragraph on Tinto Brass's ouvre would probably have a place, as would a short section on the history of filmed porn (with a {{Details}} link to Pornographic movies#History).
If someone else wishes to spin off a proper List of not really pornographic movies with unsimulated sex article, they can figure out how to draw the line there. / edg 19:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I've seen all Zodiac-films myself, and I consider them to be porn, basically. There's a silly plot to them, but it's mainly an excuse to show the sex acts. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Also, I don't think any of the mainstream actors in the series actually performed any sex acts themselves, but they were performed by close-up stand-ins. The star of the series, comedian Ole Søltoft, did never even perform nude, IIRC. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As a belated response to the original post, Tinto Brass's films qualify as mainstream and should be included -- if they contain unsimulated sexual acts. Although Brass is very good at making it seem real (I've been fooled a few times), the majority of the films (if not all of them) contain only simulated sex (male organs represented by prosthetics, for example). Even Caligula, it has been reported elsewhere, had its hardcore sequences added by another party and not Brass. So if a Tinto Brass film legitimately qualifies (as does Caligula) and the source to confirm can be found, then include it. As to the other question "what is porn and what isn't" the use of the term "mainstream" means films made by studios other than those involved specifically in the production of hardcore sex films and videos. A Google search easily provides the distinction in most cases. Makers of so-called "Skinemax" films and TV series and the dozens of made-for-video erotic films of the 1990s were not porn producers, and in 99% of the cases the sex scenes depicted are simulated and would not qualify anyway. There are exceptions - several Vivid films, for example, have played movie festivals, and Cafe Flesh and several other porn films of the 1970s and 80s were circulated as mainstream films with the hardcore bits cut out (some of these films even recruited Hollywood actors like Cameron Mitchell to appear in non-sex roles). These, however, are rare enough to be considered on a case-by-case basis. If anyone is having difficult telling the difference, the easy thing to do is take a legitimately unsimulated mainstream film like Shortbus or All About Anna, and watch it alongside a film with confirmed simulation like Lie with Me, or for that matter a standard porn video. The difference should be obvious. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Reverted addition of Bedways[edit]

I have removed Bedways from the list. The general notability guidelines requires that additions to a list are notable in their own right and there is no existing article to establish a presumption of notability. Of the sources provided, one is borderline when it comes to WP:RS, the other clearly fails the RS standard. That is not enough to establish notability so the addition to the list fails WP:GNG, and does not appear to meet any WP:NF criteria. Additional problems include the only source that states the sex scenes are non-simulated does not specifically list one of the acts included in the list entry, and so has a verifiability issue; also note that there are no clearly defined criteria for inclusion of a film as main stream and none of the sources asserted this film was, but that seems to be more a problem with the article itself. Monty845 07:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of films either falsely claimed, or debated[edit]

I think this article is incomplete without a discussion of films that, in mainstream media and numerous sources, have been the subject of debate, claims, and speculation as to whether the sex featured therein was unsimulated. Two films come to mind. Don't Look Now (dir. Nicholas Roeg) is discussed in a book by Peter Bart, a former editor for Variety, entitled Infamous Players, in which Bart claims, in print, that the scenes between Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie were unsimulated. (This in fact might in itself be enough to justify adding the film to the main list). Wild Orchid (dir. Zalman King) has long been the subject of discussion in mainstream media over whether its sex scenes were real, with the discussion reaching a head during the period when the merits of the then-proposed NC-17 rating were under debate. In addition, I have seen articles suggesting the sex in one of the Scandinavian Levottomat films was unsimulated. That last one is dubious, but there's certainly enough reputable sources (a print book in the first case, numerous articles easily found on Google for the latter) to justify at least a snapshot giving examples of notable films that have had the claim made - and there's enough reputable sources to I think satisfy WP:BLP issues. 70.64.177.79 (talk) 15:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Lust Caution[edit]

Could someone add a source (or a "fact" tag) to the listing for Lust, Caution? it's conspicuous by its absence. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 21:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Nymphomaniac[edit]

Major media including The Guardian and Huffington Post are reporting that an upcoming Lars Von Trier film, Nymphomaniac is to be released in hardcore and softcore versions. Not sure if this belongs on the list itself as that's for released films, and this one doesn't shoot till 2012, but as the topic of unsimulated sex in mainstream film is being discussed in non-trivial media, this might be worth adding somewhere. In addition, the Huffington Post source can also be used as additional source for verifying unsimulated sex in Antichrist. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

  • I'd say Not, for the time being. WP:CRYSTAL, as applied to films, doesn't allow for an article to be created about a film until it's started principal photography. I'd figure that it likewise oughn't be cited here before then.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  18:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The film is now released so info needs updating to reflect how the film has been made. Jonpatterns (talk) 12:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Now and Later[edit]

Please add this Philippe Diaz's movie (2009, released in 2011) -- Spiessens 12:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiessens (talkcontribs)

Ken Park[edit]

The listing for Ken Park indicates the sex is simulated. Assuming the cited source confirms this (I haven't looked), then it probably no longer qualifies for this article and should be removed from the listing, unless the solo scene mentioned counts. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 21:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

  • I just watched it on DVD again to check it. There is definitely real oral sex in the last scene PeterGerbach (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
And real cunnilingus earlier. It should stay on the list. Issar El-Aksab (talk) 05:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Novecento (also known as "1900")[edit]

Bernardo Bertolucci epic from 1976 includes a young boy (Roberto Maccanti, age approx 12) explicitly masturbating to a full erection. Also, a woman (not sure who) takes the penises of Robert DeNiro and Gerard Depardieu into her hands and explicitly fondles them.

Source: http://cndb.com/novecento-1976---t27084.html 70.60.179.74 (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

  • I believe the qualifications for inclusion on this list are unsimulated intercourse or oral sex, neither of which is described here. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Q[edit]

The new French film Q needs to be added. Media coverage is confirming unsimulated sex throughout this mainstream release. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The Orgasm Diaries[edit]

I saw this on DVD at the Columbus Branch of the New York Public Library. Box blurbs compare 9 Songs negatively to it and imply that it, too, has unsimulated sex. IMDb says this film was titled BrilliantLove in its native UK.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 05:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Removed films[edit]

Some comments about the removed films "Nuda per satana" and "Les fruits de la passion". Nuda per satana appears to be a "hardcore insert" for pornographic cinemas, and thus not a mainstream release [1] while the generally softcore "Les fruits de la passion" possibly may qualify. (Link to MrSkin blog on blacklist) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Wot about .....[edit]

I understand that there is a movie or possibly a video clip starring Madonna_(entertainer) where she is actually having sex with her male co-star. Old_Wombat (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Doubtful of its existence, and even so, I don't think it'd qualify on this list. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
This is probably 1993 film Body of evidence, uncensored Europian version. (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.136.55 (talk)

Hardcore re-edit[edit]

There appears to be some softcore movies that were re-edited (without the original director's consent with new actors and actresses) with hardcore scenes to be shown at pornographic cinemas. Maybe something should be added about them. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:53, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Enter the Void[edit]

This film should be added to the list. It possibly containts actual unsimulated sex, and most definitely at least vaginal penetration by objects. 37.59.83.1 (talk) 01:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


Emmanuelle In Space Collection][edit]

what about the sex in this collection, staring Krista Allen, I've heard both that it was real and that it was faked nyone have the 411 on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.118.103 (talk) 19:23, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

  • There was no unsimulated sex in the Allen Emmanuelle films, which were in fact episodes of a made-for-cable TV series edited together. There is a "hardcore edit" of one of the Monique Gabrielle Emmanuelle films (involving the addition of footage involving actresses other than Gabrielle), but that's as close to hardcore as any "officially sanctioned" Emmanuelle production (i.e. anything in which Emmanuelle is spelled with one M) ever got. 70.72.223.215 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Addition to list[edit]

This has been mentioned earlier in the talk page, but to repeat, the French release Q has confirmed unsimulated sex. It was released in North America on DVD this week under the title Desire. 70.72.223.215 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

  • However the North American DVD release is censored with all unsimulated scenes removed. So if anyone needs to verify they have to access the Euro DVD. Another addition is the 2011 Erika Lust feature Cabaret Desire. Although most of her work appears to be porn, which would disqualify a film under the criteria of this article, it appears Cabaret Desire is considered a mainstream (albeit alternative) release along the lines of Shortbus. 70.72.215.252 (talk) 12:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Bedways (2012 Germany) is also a mainstream movie with unsimulated sex PeterGerbach (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The Bunny Game[edit]

The opening scene from The Bunny Game appears real (could be fake, but the effort to fake it - i.e., prosthetics - seems unrealistic). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.108.77.242 (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

To add[edit]

Sexual Chronicle of a French Family (2012) by Jean-Marc Barr and Pascal Arnold. The uncut version has a large number of unsimulated sex scenes (see allocine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.47.86 (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Time for an update[edit]

I think it's time for the article to undergo an update. The last film entered was back in 2009, but there have been several more released since then (see above discussions). 70.72.211.35 (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Additional films[edit]

This is a list someone made on IMDB. It can be culled for new additions to the film list in this article: [2]. Softlavender (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 January 2013[edit]

The Image (1975)

Jean discovers that Anne cannot get enough of being humiliated by her mistress, Claire. Gentleman that he is, he decides to partake in the activities. Ultimately, Claire surrenders to him as well. Written by Manfred Gluck

There are a number of highly erotic scenes of actual fellatio, cunnilingus and 'manual labour', as well as some urinating in full view. There also is a scene in wich the trio has some light SM . Really something to see. Boterletter (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2013 (UTCs

Yes check.svg Done I don't see any actual request made above but I suppose you are indirectly suggesting that The Image be added to the table in the article. If so, please provide a reliable source that verifies the addition, i.e., one that cites for the proposition that the actors were actually engaging in sexual acts for the filming, so that it can be cited when the edit is made.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Sexual Chronicle of a French Family[edit]

The SF Bay Times has an October, 2012 article in which Jean-Marc Barr, co-director of Sexual Chronicles of a French Family, says 'that the DVD is the “sensual” version of the film. A “sexual” version—four minutes longer, and showcasing erections and penetration—also exists. (These scenes/this version is unavailable in the United States).' 86.41.22.67 (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The uncut version can be seen here. Obviously this can't be used in the article, but just in case editors wanted to check the bona fides of the SFBT report. 86.41.22.67 (talk) 08:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Please Remove Blue is the Warmest Colour[edit]

That Variety review is the only source on the Internet suggesting the sex scenes in the film are unsimulated (and just because there is "lots of lesbian sex" means nothing). I have been looking and have found no source from anyone connected with the film or the studio to confirm that the film is unsimulated. Unless such a source is found, citing a review isn't going to cut it here. It can always be reinstated later if additional sources are found. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

This film belongs, per reliable sources:
  • [3] “Sure to raise eyebrows with its show-stopping scenes of non-simulated female copulation..."
  • [4] There have been suggestions that the sex scenes are real, something fuelled by Seydoux who revealed last night that “what you see on screen is what we really did”
Federales (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
One of the actors at a roundtable has been quoted in another reliable source as confirming that it is simulated: Crave Online Cannes Roundtable with Lea Seyboux. Per WP:BLP it must now be removed. 70.72.211.35 (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Q, TV series, Real Cancun[edit]

The Q entry should be amended to note that the North American version, titled Desire, is censored to remove the unsimulated footage. One addition should be the "reality" movie The Real Cancun, which features two "spy camera"-style scenes showing couples engaged in sex; it was widely distributed in mainstream theatres. And I think maybe we should also add a section for TV series. Although I have yet to see a scripted TV series with unsimulated sex (though some Cinemax After Dark productions come as close as it's possible to get, and the jury is out for some on Tell Me You Love Me), a number of reality series have featured unsimulated sexual activity (sometimes with hardcore explicitness). Big Brother is a major example (at least non-US versions), and there's also the European version of Paradise Hotel. HBO aired Cathouse and Showtime aired Family Business. It might be borderline, but Playboy's reality programming often includes unsimulated footage such as Foursome and 7 Lives Xposed. Playboy might be considered too close to porn to qualify for the "mainstream" aspect of this list, but HBO and Showtime, not to mention all the mainstream nets that air BB and its variations, certainly do. 70.76.69.162 (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 October 2013[edit]

2055l (talk) 09:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Intimacy (2001) has only short fellatio, NO coitus and this wikipedia page showed correct information for a long time (until someone put a false information) and looked like this:

Fellatio scene between actress Kerry Fox and Mark Rylance. It is often falsely stated that actual coitus is performed between the two leads, but this rumor was dispelled by Fox's then-boyfriend, Alexander Linklater, who wrote an article for The Guardian about the making of the film.[1]

2. Antares (2004) has no real fellation scene, while the view is obstructed by actresses hair during most of the scene,there is a moment where you can see that actors penis is NOT inside her mouth if you watch carefully. This scene was uncorrectly mentioned in this wikipedia article couple years ago until someone correctly edited it out. Now someone has falsely put it back. You cannot see the penis inside her mouth during that scene, but there is a moment where you can see that it is outside, so this movie does not belong to this article.

The link [33] also point to the another movie ""Adriana Davidova in "Síndrome" - Thirsty Rabbit"."

3. Síndrome (2004) is also wrongly listed here: the link [32] does not confirm unsimulated sex at all.

Not done: By your own description, these changes may lack consensus. Please discuss these changes with the other editors who frequent this article and reach a consensus before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 03:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

El Topo[edit]

Alejandro Jodorowsky has made claims that he actually raped the actress playing Mara in this film. One source: [5]. It's hard to tell if this should be taken literally or not, however. Not sure if it's worthy of inclusion on this list. (You can't really see anything, so the director/star's claims are the only evidence supporting it. Not sure if the actress has made any statements on the subject.) Lurlock (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Jodorowsky explicitly confirmed this. [[6]] 20:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs)

Irene Jacob[edit]

I'm in doubt about two movies where scenes involving Irene Jacob seem to be real:

Edit request: Sexual Chronicles of a French Family[edit]

Add to the list between "Q" and "Nymphomaniac":

|-
| Sexual Chronicles of a French Family
| 2012
| Jean-Marc Barr, co-director of the film, said 'that the DVD is the “sensual” version of the film. A “sexual” version—four minutes longer, and showcasing erections and penetration—also exists.'<ref>Gary M. Kramer, ''[http://issuu.com/sanfranciscobaytimes/docs/2012-10-18 Sexual Chronicle of a French Family]'', San Francisco Bay Times, October 18, 2012, p. 23</ref><ref>[http://www.amazon.de/Frankreich-Privat-sexuellen-Geheimnisse-Familie/dp/B008SKCVJ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386106130&sr=8-1&keywords=Chroniques+sexuelles+d%27une+famille+d%27aujourd%27hui Uncut version at Amazon.de]</ref>
|French


86.41.34.32 (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 05:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you.Lostinlodos (talk) 18:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2013[edit]

Remove Inside Deep Throat - It is not a feature film but rather a documentary about a pornographic movie. It´s either that or start listing every other porn documentary featuring a sex clip or two, there´s a lot of em. 83.108.240.126 (talk) 10:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Fair point. I've removed it from the main list, and in the interests of WP:PRESERVE, added this above the list:

This list does not include documentaries about pornography, which may contain unsimulated sexual activity. For example, Inside Deep Throat contains approximately 30 seconds of unsimulated fellatio.[2]

Thanks, Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 03:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

La vie d'Adele[edit]

La vie d'Adele displays explicit and unsimulated lesbian sex acts[[8]]. Should it be included in the list?

La vie d'Adele[edit]

La vie d'Adele displays explicit and unsimulated lesbian sex acts[[9]]. Should it be included in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.196.229.158 (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

WR. Mysteries of the Organism[edit]

This film should be excluded from the list. "Manual stimulation of the penis" is not a reason for being it here. In addition, this is displayed in a nonsexual content. At the very begining of the film there are some real sex scenes but they are inserted here from another film ( an old Soviet sexually - educational film ). In fictional part there are many sex scenes but they are all simulated. (Film contains both documentary and fictional parts). BTW, the film can be found on the internet. 10:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba i deda (talkcontribs)
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