Talk:Usage share of operating systems

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Linux ≠ Android[edit]

Right now the article sometimes mix Android, Chrome OS and others under the Linux brand. That is a non-technical "internet" culture but in this wiki article is unnecessary and wrong.

Linux is a kernel and Android is an OS. They should be not mixed in the same soup. Plus Android is NOT similar to classicals linux distros. It would be confusing and distorting if wikipedia mix them under the same umbrella. Most people dont know and dont care whether or not Android "is equal to" Linux (aka: Android have a little piece called Linux and just linux militants are remembering it). Wikipedia must not preach a gospel that no one is asking for.

Actually the article, sometimes yes sometimes no, talks about Android like a Linuxs limb. Of course, that's wrong. The right is talks about OS because the wikipedia article is about OSes. Wikipedia should not be kernel centric sometimes yes, because it's wrong and not necessary. If it's Android then should say Android, and if itś other "Linux based system" then should say Linux Distro (or GNU/Linux). Wikipedia should not talk about "Linux based systems" because OSX is not named a "Match based system" e.g. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.92.106.193 (talk) 00:17, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

TRON[edit]

What is Statcounter's "Unknown" category?[edit]

"As of April 2016, online usage of Unix-like kernel derivatives (Apple systems + Google systems + GNU/Linux) is now more than Windows online usage." When I crunch the numbers from the CSV file, I get a difference between Windows and Unix-like that's less than 3 percent, while the "Unknown" category is more than 3 percent. If we treat Statcounter's "Unknown" category as unknown, this means the difference is statistically insignificant, and thus the statement is wrong. In other words, there's a claim here that the "Unknown" category doesn't include Windows, or is mostly Unix-like. I cannot find a breakdown of the "Unknown" category on Statcounter's website, so can anybody here show me where the proof of this claim is? --DanielPharos (talk) 08:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Using the CSV for April 2016, Win7+Win10+Win8.1+WinXP+Win8+WinVista+Windows Phone+Win2003+Win8.1 RT+Xbox+Win2000 = 46.44%. Android+iOS+OS X+Linux+Chrome OS+Samsung+Playstation+Tizen+LG+MeeGo+Bada = 47.85% (If you just include the first 4, it's still 47.1%). You don't need to include Unknown or Other for Unix-like's to outnumber Windows. Yes, it's a small increase (although I would argue still statistically significant) but comparing these numbers to other months, you get 47.32% vs 47.15% in March and 44.3% vs 49.74% in May. The May numbers are definitely statistically significant, and April remains the month where Unix-likes overtook Windows, at least via this metric. We can't make any assumptions about "Unknown", but the difference in the May numbers is 5.44%, and "Unknown" was reported as 3.35%, so it seems your concern is resolved anyway. --Skrapion (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
But let's say that "Unknown" is comprised mostly of Windows (through some browser that doesn't include the OS in the user agent). Then 46.44%+3.35% > 47.85%, and thus Windows is still larger than Unix-like. So you're making assumptions about "Unknown" not being Windows, even though you go on and explicitly state the opposite. In other words: the difference is NOT statistically significant, because you have to treat the "Unknown" as a measurement error. And thus the statement in the article is wrong: Statcounter showed no such thing in April 2016. --DanielPharos (talk) 05:58, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
"But let's say that "Unknown" is comprised mostly of Windows (through some browser that doesn't include the OS in the user agent)." Isn't that unlikely? Any browser you know of? All known are accounted for, and the numbers are high. We need to get an answer from StatCounter soon.. better yet, they just correct numbers.. comp.arch (talk) 16:21, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Since we're talking about single-digit percentages here, something "being unlikely" isn't good enough. Browser: I already mentioned one down below: Lynx. And yes, I hope StatCounter can elaborate what their "Unknown" category is, exactly. Or at the very least how they've defined it. --DanielPharos (talk) 16:31, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
And I just looked at the W3Counter stats you just added (I can only find the Top 10 Platforms to work with?): the "Unknown" category I calculated to be 8.33%, with the difference between Windows and Unix-like to be less than 2 percent. Once again: not statistically significant, unless we start making assumptions about the "Unknown" category! --DanielPharos (talk) 06:03, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Typically, the best assumption you can make about measurement errors is that they affect all measurements equally. If the current measurements still had the potential ambiguity you're worried about, I'd see your point, but we're not arguing over whether or not these sources show that Unix-likes have overtaken Windows, we're only arguing about when it happened. We're just looking for the crossover point. Would you really prefer 'According to StatCounter, Unix-likes probably overtook Windows in April, and definitely overtook Windows in May"? --Skrapion (talk) 04:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
"If the current measurements still had the potential ambiguity you're worried about" Nobody has showed me otherwise. "We're just looking for the crossover point." Which we probably cannot ever pin down to a single month (or even quarter), with such a large "Unknown" category.
But indeed, enough with the arguing, time for fixing! I'm 100% okay with your suggestion, although I'm worried it would be flagged for weasel wording. Maybe something along the lines of 'According to StatCounter, Unix-likes overtook Windows in during the period of April-May 2016'? --DanielPharos (talk) 05:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Worldwide Device Shipments by Operating System
Source Year Android iOS/OS X Windows Others
Gartner[1] 2015 1.3 billion (54%) 297 million (12.3%)
thereof OS X is 21 million
283 million (11.7%) ~520 million (21.6%)

I would say most of the 3% unknown is among the "others" being shipped, like the 520 million "others" shipped last year. Possibly includes Linux devices like Solus, C.H.I.P, Kano, Parallella, etc. Non-mobile Android devices are also sometimes counted as unknown. --Ne0 (talk) 05:28, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what these Gartner's numbers have to do with this? Can you elaborate? --DanielPharos (talk) 08:24, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Gartner, around 520 million devices with "other" operating systems were shipped last year. It is very likely that most of the unknowns in StatCounter are among these "other" Operating Systems, and NOT Apple or Microsoft systems. --Ne0 (talk) 09:56, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
I still don't see a direct correlation. Devices shipped does not equate to web clients, as the first includes devices that are never online. Additionally, the "unknown" category may include Windows/OSX/Linux devices that cannot be identified as such (for example by spoofing the user agent header), which explicitly don't fall into the "Other" Gartner category. I understand what you are trying to insinuate, but from the sources provided I cannot draw your conclusion. --DanielPharos (talk) 13:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
You may be able to spoof browser agent, but you cannot spoof device shipment: a Chromebook is a Chromebook, a Mintbox is a MintBox ! --Ne0 (talk) 10:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but that's not what we were talking about, because StatCounter doesn't measure device shipments, but webclients. --DanielPharos (talk) 15:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, StatCounter gives statistics on webclients, and device shipments translate into device usage, and ultimately counts in the webclients. --Ne0 (talk) 05:08, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
I'll just quote myself as my reply: "I still don't see a direct correlation. Devices shipped does not equate to web clients, as the first includes devices that are never online. Additionally, the "unknown" category may include Windows/OSX/Linux devices that cannot be identified as such (for example by spoofing the user agent header), which explicitly don't fall into the "Other" Gartner category. I understand what you are trying to insinuate, but from the sources provided I cannot draw your conclusion." --DanielPharos (talk) 05:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
"Devices shipped does not equate to web clients, as the first includes devices that are never online." ...Then tell me, if those devices don´t eventually end up in customer hands, what happens to them ? do the brand new devices go straight to landfill ? --Ne0 (talk) 05:27, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Not every device in customer hands becomes a web client. Servers often don't. Neither do some low-power devices, such as Arduino's and Raspberry Pi's. Or NASes. I'm not familiar with them, but I doubt Steam machines are counted by StatCounter, unless Valve's websites happen to be among the websites gathering statistics. What about most other consoles? They ship with operating systems too, so they are counted in the first category, but may not be in the second. You haven't shown whether or not the correlation between the two categories is strong enough to make the claims that you do.
Now that I think about it, people can also install their own operating systems. I think quite a few Windows-shipped machines end up being Linuxes. Probably not a significant effect, sure, but again, you haven't shown this to be insignificant.
You haven't shown that "user agent spoofing" is insignificant either.
In other words: "from the sources provided I cannot draw your conclusion."
However, let's stop arguing in circles, and get back to the original point: the StatCounter "Unknown" category. Can you show what that category is comprised of? (Showing with sources instead of merely suggesting, as that is not only not good enough, it's probably OR.) --DanielPharos (talk) 06:03, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Both my non-mobile Android devices, SHIELD Android TV and Remix Mini show up as unknown on StatCounter. I would guess StatCounter unknowns include Android game consoles, Android mini-PC, GNU/Linux smartphones, and other obscure systems, such as non-branded OS like OpenBSD, FreeDOS, etc. We need more proof/confirmation on this. For example, at least 10%[citation needed] of computers in India are sold with some form of DOS,[2] and DOS skills are highly valued in India,[3] like Linux skills. But StatCounter does not show any DOS usage in India. My guess would be, it is counted as unknown. Also, I had used Windows for 15 years, and have never seen a browser on Windows not being recognized as Windows. Please do give examples, if you have any. --Ne0 (talk) 10:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
"I doubt Steam machines are counted by StatCounter, unless Valve's websites happen to be among the websites gathering statistics", you have this backwards. Clients, not servers are counted. Consoles, are in the noise, however, as I guess most are just playing games.. not online.. comp.arch (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry if I wasn't clear: I meant the Steam consoles; I never meant any servers. The Steam consoles are Linux-based, but their web-activity is mostly restricted to Valve's websites (i.e. Steam). In other words, they are shipped devices, but unlikely to show up in StatCounter's "unknown" category. (That is, unless StatCounter happens to be monitoring the Valve website.) --DanielPharos (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, they do track "client websites using Javascript in the user's browser" (private communication) comp.arch (talk) 17:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Not sure what you mean by that. What I was talking about is this: [4] If Valve is using this on the Steam website, Steam OS would show up (probably as Linux). If Valve isn't doing that, most Steam consoles would probably not show up. --DanielPharos (talk) 18:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand. If Steam OS machines have web browsers, then they are counted on other sites. StatCounter seems to provide a service, so you can track who comes to your site. That is probably the same system they use to track all web clients, but Valve wouldn't have to set it up for the servers to make SteamOS count at StatCounter. comp.arch (talk) 19:35, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
But Steam *is* a browser,; it's a Webkit-based engine. Now, admittedly I'm not familiar with the Steam OS implementation, but I highly suspect it's the same: a webbrowser (plus some other features surrounding it) that is displaying the steampowered.com website. In other words: the main store interface is "just" a website, and thus all Steam OS devices are web clients. But they won't be counted in StatCounter at all, unless they visit StatCounter-enabled sites. And I doubt steampowered.com is one. Thus, most Steam console are not even counted by StatCounter. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Please correct me if I'm wrong with my assumptions about Steam OS! --DanielPharos (talk) 05:51, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
"that is displaying the steampowered.com website", not only, as I confirmed looking up on youtube. And on the WP page: "based on estimations made by the tracking website Steam Spy" [probably unrelated], "access a built-in web browser without having to exit the game" [yes, most will not browser much [arbitrary websites], also known that mobile apps are more used than the web on smartphones, so web use as a proxy for all use of a device is flawed] "users could share screenshots on websites of Facebook" comp.arch (talk) 08:42, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
So, conclusion: it *can* be a web client, but "most will not browse[r] much". And thus we once again cannot tell what percentage of shipped devices will show up as web clients, nor can be deduce how many Steam consoles are in the "Unknown" or Linux categories, without getting more concrete numbers from StatCounter. --DanielPharos (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
"cannot tell what percentage of shipped devices will show up as web clients" I think StatCounter could be counting Steam OS just as well as other consoles, or non-consoles. I just can't tell. The objective of this page, is to count "usage share", not just "web usage share". Always keep that in mind. They are not the same, but StatCounter could be fair for the latter. It could also be missing out on SteamOS, but at least they count other consoles. Keep in mind that the most popular console, PlayStation (at least what they count, could be all or one version) is at 0.09% and all consoles total at 0.15%. I doubt SteamOS is is more popular than PlayStation (or all combined), so it would at best account only for a tiny fraction of "Unknown". I guess they are all counted, just not classified right. comp.arch (talk) 12:16, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
"I think StatCounter could be counting" I have never denied that. In fact, I've explicitly said this. I was only questioning out loud whether it's likely for Steam consoles to show up in the StatCounter numbers. "The objective of this page" I'm glad we agree on that. "Always keep that in mind." I have never done otherwise. "so it would at best account only for a tiny fraction" ok, so it's probably not Steam consoles. Great! Glad we can cross another one off the list. Glad we agree on that (even if we came to that conclusion using different reasons). --DanielPharos (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── "Both my non-mobile Android devices" How are you determining where a device ends up, and is there a way to do this without violating OR?

"with some form of DOS" Nice, I didn't know DOS was still so popular! Any indication of how many of those DOS-devices are web-clients?

"Also, I had used Windows for 15 years, and have never seen a browser on Windows not being recognized as Windows. Please do give examples, if you have any." I've already mentioned one way: user agent spoofing. Most modern browsers have this functionality build-in. Better, take Tor; it's lying by default: http://tor.stackexchange.com/questions/4890/tor-browser-user-agent-strings

But there's more. Here's the default Python 2.6 user agent: "Python-urllib/2.6". I don't see any OS tokens in there.

Here's pyCURL: http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php?name=PycURL

libwww-perl: http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php?name=libwww-perl

Many of these would be scripts, but don't those count as "web clients" too? And some of them are legitimate web clients; it's just that the program displaying it to the user is going through a Perl/Python/... library. These will probably all be counted as "Unknown"s.

More browsers you say? Here's Lynx: http://www.useragentstring.com/pages/useragentstring.php?name=Lynx And I suspect the new Cliqz browser that's being developed doesn't send any OS-token either. Sure, not many people are using Lynx or Cliqz right now, but we're already comparing single-digit percentage numbers, so "not many" isn't good enough an argument.

If Linuxes are ending up in the "Unknown" category, that's *more* cause for concern, because it introduces the concept of an error on the values of all categories given! You are literally saying that the "Linux" category numbers are flat-out wrong (probably close, but wrong nonetheless). Can the "Windows" category be trusted? Without some constraints on the size of this error, how can we trust any of the numbers at all?

Without any concrete breakdown numbers, it'll be very difficult to drop the percentage "Unknown"s to below the difference between Windows and Unix-like for these months, if that's even possible at all. I don't see how those breakdown numbers can be reliably obtained without StatCounter simply providing them, and I think they don't actually have them, hence them calling them all "Unknown". As soon as you start analyzing the StatCounter numbers, trying to get more out of them, all kinds of measure errors and secondary effects (like the error on the values of all the categories, or the fact that spammers often spoof their user agents; how are those handled?) will need to be estimated and taken into account. That's why it's best to leave the "Unknown" category just that, unknown. This is why I've been taken the "numbers at face value" approach from the beginning and formulating it as "according to StatCounter", because I really don't want to open that can of worms any further. --DanielPharos (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

How are you determining where a device ends up : gs.StatCounter.com/detect - and yes, it is OR because you yourself are going there, not a reporter/blogger.
Statcounter on Bots/Scripts : We make every effort to eliminate bot activity. We identify bots and prevent them from being recorded in our stats. We also monitor multiple key metrics in order to identify any potential problems with our data. We maintain communications with many of the main technology providers and we reserve a 45 day window to revise stats if/when necessary. In the event of a change or revision being required we flag this on our graphs by way of a note.
DOS: the only organization I have personally seen using DOS is Indian Railways,[5] one of the World's largest employers. At any rate, a computer running MS DOS as a native OS should be even less powerful than today's "Cloud PC"(Chromebooks) ! Since the 'official' DOS (from Microsoft) is so limited, vendors of current generation of PCs tend to use some other form of the original DR-DOS, such as FreeDOS.
Unknown browsers : As of last month, StatCounter has identified 99.9% of the browsers - there's a 0.07% unknowns and 0.16 % others. So, most of the 4% unknowns are NOT unknown browser !
"Can the 'Windows' category be trusted?": All those "Surface Pro tablets" sold, and not a single blimp on StatCounter ? - This is conjecture but, Windows 10 Intel x86 tablets seems to be counted in the desktop category... so the "Windows 10 desktop" category may be over-bloated with Windows 10 Intel mobile devices; just like unknown category seems to be over-bloated with Android desktop devices. This conjecture comes from Gartner and other's statments that Desktop sales are falling, while Mobile(including 2-in-1) sales are rising, for every OS. So, where is Windows NON-RT(non-ARM) mobile devices in StatCounter ?
There is also React OS, which is built to imitate Windows ! --Ne0 (talk) 04:41, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Statistics should always be taken with a pinch of salt, as there is always a chance for error, in this case the 4% unknowns could belong to any OS, but probably belongs to the more obscure systems not counted in StatCounter. Hackers and Darknet users are known to change User Agent, and also they usually use BSD or Linux derivatives. Also, the population surveyed(online users) may actually be a narrower sample than previously expected: if atleast 50% of the 1.4 million Indian railways employees are using DOS on IntraNet, then you got 700,000 DOS Desktop PC not counted, since they are NOT "Online" -- Just because majority of the population you surveyed says 2 + 2 = 3, you still have to report the answer as 3 ! Remember, not everyone is connected to the Internet, maybe even the majority of the computing devices are not connected to the Internet... we will never know ! --Ne0 (talk) 09:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
"but we're already comparing single-digit percentage numbers", in India, "Unknown" is currently at 11.32% (plus "Nokia Unknown" at 5.14%), so that is a clue (I'm guessing not Tor): cheap no-name Androids, since India (and Madagaskar highest ranked for almost a year[6] at up to 36%..) and more is so disproportional with the developed world. I've looked into this before (now in [6]). comp.arch (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
It's all circumstantial at best. Without concrete numbers, how can be draw solid conclusions? As I've said before: "from the sources provided I cannot draw your conclusion." --DanielPharos (talk) 17:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
"Statcounter on Bots/Scripts": So no concrete numbers then? No indication if it's sub-single-digit percentages?
"DOS": So no indication how large a fraction of those are web clients, only that it's "probably small".
"Unknown browsers": I don't see how this applies to OS detection. Again, there's probably a strong correlation, but as I demonstrated with Lynx, it's certainly not 100%. I suspect you're mixing the two up? The "Unknown" is about OSes, not browsers.
"Can the 'Windows' category be trusted?": Your conclusion seems to be that we can't trust those numbers either. And ReactOS is indeed another good problematic case! Hadn't even thought of that.
"in this case the 4% unknowns could belong to any OS": Ah, so you agree with my original point of treating the "Unknown" category as an error on the OS-determination. Great!
"but probably belongs to the more obscure systems not counted in StatCounter.": Sure, but without breakdown numbers from StatCounter, there's no way to know for sure.
"Remember, not everyone is connected to the Internet,": Yes, so focusing on web clients at single-digit percentage levels is a flawed premise from the start. Great, does that mean we can now stop doing that? Especially since you've just agreed that we should be treating the "Unknown" category as the measurement error? I mean, if that's the conclusion we both are drawing, then that wraps up our discussion here! --DanielPharos (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I WAS "treating the ´Unknown´ category as an error", until User:Comp.arch got verification directly from StatCounter:
"Unknown (are) a consequence of our Android device detection system. It requires frequent updates to keep on top of new models, but the volume required has been increasing. At the moment when a mobile device's vendor and model is unknown we also record the operating system as unknown with a default 'desktop' platform. Looking at the raw useragent strings for these hits, they are indeed predominantly Android useragents that haven't yet been accounted for in updates to our handset detection."
"We're setting in place a more intensive and frequent update cycle for our handset detection, which should in the near future see a reduction in the 'Unknown' percentages." --comp.arch 19:28, 20 February 2016 (UTC) ...In short StatCounter can´t keep up with the rate of device release, especially in Asian markets ----Ne0 (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Ooh, that's certainly interesting; they may not be breakdown numbers, but surely it's as close to that as we'll every get, I suppose. Is there any source/reference for that StatCounter statement? --DanielPharos (talk) 15:39, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Never mind, I see you included a link. And I've now also seen the "private communication" ref. How is that not OR? I didn't know such a ref is even allowed on Wikipedia! --DanielPharos (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
And I predict the rate of unknowns is set to increase...
Mozilla/5.0 (Android 6.0.1; Tablet; rv:48.0) Gecko/48.0 Firefox/48.0
Firefox Android app on my Chromebook Pixel 2015 shows up as "unknown 6.0, desktop" on StatCounter. So, Next year, as 2-in-1 and convertible Chromebooks are released with Android running in a container, we will start getting more and more unknowns ! The conundrum with this is, how do you identify a vendor or model from the user-agent in a browser running in emulated Android ? you can´t ! --Ne0 (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, so estimating the usage share of operating systems from web clients is a horribly inaccurate method to do so, we've already established that. What are you proposing we do about it? --DanielPharos (talk) 17:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe get StatCounter to drop the Vendor and model requirement for mobile devices ? At any rate, even if you are using an emulation of Android, you are still using Android, and not the underlying OS. The 2-in-1 and convertible Chromebooks are meant to be used as both Tablet and Netbook. Having a browser built for a touchscreen OS(Android), on Chromebook makes it much more easier to type on a Chromebook device in Tablet form. --Ne0 (talk) 17:14, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I suppose that would reduce the size of the "Unknown" category, yes. But I don't think it would solve the underlying problems. However, I'll take any improvement we can get; can you see if StatCounter is interested in making that change? --DanielPharos (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
"I've now also seen the "private communication" ref. How is that not OR?" It is, but not disallowed.. I've only "private communicated" (in extreme cases).. and seems I, or someone, needs to again (I can't make them fix it (just say it's alarming) but you can ask what "Unknown" means). WP:V is the major rule in my book, and OR to confirm is ok. It seemed ok, to ref "private" communication (read e-mail, but I'm not sure about quoting private e-mail), better than nothing, as anyone can also e-mail StatCounter. [I've seen refs to "private communication" in academic papers..] The problem is, they do not know, but they seem to know it's not Windows at least. I was hoping they would just resolve (or reduce scope of) the "Unknown" situation, so this thread would have been avoided.. before the "Unknown" situation got out of hand. At least I brought this up in Talk.. comp.arch (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
It can be pulled out of OR territory if they are willing to make a public statement about it. Although I can understand if they'd rather not...
To prevent this discussion from happening in the future: is there some way we can gather all the information in this and the previous thread (February 2016) together, and somehow put it in the article? Either as a comment, or maybe as a separate (hidden?) page, and then link to it with comments? It would be silly to have this conversation over and over again every few months... --DanielPharos (talk) 17:26, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

#Worldwide device shipments - 2015/Windows[edit]

Why in the table (Usage share of operating systems#Worldwide device shipments), in the 2015/Windows column, does it say "thereof OS X is 21 million"? --Diblidabliduu (talk) 16:47, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I can't recall, if it's the same underlying Garner source or some other. I can't locate now. "iOS/OS X" isn't one operating system, but what the source given gave me. comp.arch (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Android is Linux[edit]

This article talks about Android as if it is different from Linux. Android is built on top of Linux. Sam Tomato (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Linux is a kernel and Android is an OS. They should be not mixed in the same soup.
Plus Android is NOT similar to classicals linux distros. It would be confusing and distorting if wikipedia mix them under the same umbrella.
Most people dont know and dont care whether or not Android "is equal to" Linux (aka: Android have a little piece called Linux and just linux militants are remembering it). Wikipedia must not preach a gospel that no one is asking for.
Actually the article, sometimes yes sometimes no, talks about Android like a Linuxs limb. Of course, that's wrong.
The right is talks about OS because the wikipedia article is about OSes. Wikipedia should not be kernel centric sometimes yes, sometimes no, because it's wrong and not necessary. If it's Android then should say Android, and if itś other "Linux based system" then should say Linux Distro (or GNU/Linux). Wikipedia should not talk about "Linux based systems" because OSX is not named a "Match based system" e.g. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.92.106.193 (talk) 00:10, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Linux is the name of a kernel & Chrome OS is a GNU/Linux system[edit]

There is a huge problem in this article.

GNU/Linux systems — equivalent to Windows 10 or Mac OS X — are named Linux, the name of a kernel. If Linux is supposed to refer to any operating system using that kernel, then Mac OS X should be named Mach.

In the same way, Chrome OS is a GNU/Linux system. Hence it makes no sense to compare the market shares of “Linux” and “Chrome OS” on the same graphic.

This results in a very confusing article. The reader won't understand which is which. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Excubia (talkcontribs) 18:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Linux is ambiguous yes, some use it for GNU/Linux also. However, "ChromeOS is NOT a GNU/Linux distro [..] does not ship with the following".[7] If it had a lot of GNU, what is usually expected, there would be no need for cublinux.com (note the authority on GNU, isn't happy with ChromeOS, while saying: "Now let's consider Google ChromeOS, a variant of GNU/Linux"[8] but he doesn't control what name is used). "Some in the Linux community have criticised Chrome OS as not being a "normal" or "traditional" Linux distribution."[9] comp.arch (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I like your answer. There is still something: you must have a good reason to isolate CrOS from the linux group. Either it's because it is non-GNU (that would be perfectly acceptable) or because CrOS is such a huge part of Linux distros that it makes sense to single it out. This is not the case and the graphics are less understandable with percentages < 1%. My conclusion: either we merge everything into “stuff that runs Linux” or we distinguish “GNU/Linux distros” vs “non-GNU Linux distros”. Excubia (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Feel free to edit this page (or any other) if you think you can make it clearer. Chrome OS (and even Android) is an edge case.. compared to GNU/Linux (or Windows if you will). Linux is the common name understood by techical people to mean GNU/Linux. I try to explain the big trends (and leave minor OSes such as ChromeOS mostly not explained, at least on this page until they get market share, yes, I know it's popular in US education, but no real installed base globally). I didn't "isolate" Chrome OS, StatCounter (the source) did, justifiably as it doesn't run the same "Linux" programs (only, with few exceptions, web apps). I just explained that it's not counted with [other] Linux. comp.arch (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
The “you” was meant to be a rhetorical “someone”. I think you, personnaly, do a fine job AFAICT :-) Excubia (talk) 20:01, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Another distinct comment. As I read the links you cited, I understand that CrOS doesn't have a C compiler. Can we still say it's an “operating system”? Excubia (talk) 02:12, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
ChromeOS is an operating system, it doesn't need a C compiler (that is however unusual for GNU/Linux, but it isn't that), no more than Windows. comp.arch (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
See also from Stallman (the authority on GNU): "There are complete systems that contain Linux and not GNU; Android is an example."[10] He really should look at Chrome OS the same (sometimes he's not up-to-speed, as he does not browse the web); until (Chrome OS (or Chromium OS), says it is "GNU/Linux" (when the maker does, which is never, as it has very little of GNU and it's not "exposed" to [web] apps), it shouldn't be discussed here (at best there, but there it will be protested). comp.arch (talk) 21:23, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I suggest either we change Linux -> "GNU/Linux";
OR we change Linux -> "Linux Desktop" and add Chrome OS to it.
Chrome OS is not GNU, but it does use Linux (kernel).
The proof of that is Crouton: Chrome OS + XFCE = Xubuntu.
So Chrome OS is just a browser on top of the Linux (Kernel) --Ne0 (talk) 10:39, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Analysis and absolute numbers "Platform wars: the final score"[edit]

from a venture capitalist (at least I find this [whole] article and absolute numbers interesting): "Globally, something around 5bn people (give or take perhaps 250m each way) have a mobile phone, out of around 5.5bn people over the age of 16.
[..]
This implies something around 175m iPhones in China across all three operators. This is more iPhones than there are in the USA.
[..]
Plotting this as a chart (showing only Google's rounded numbers at scheduled events), a March 2016 number of 1.5bn total Google Android and hence 1.35bn phones looks plausible, and might be high.

[showing s-curve of a saturated market]
[..]

Annual smartphone sales will rise to close to 2bn units and PC sales fall to close to 200m, while the smartphone install base will rise from 2.5bn to close to 5bn and the PC install base fall from today's 1.5bn to closer to 1bn (if that). So mobile has 10x the unit volume and 5x the install base - 'a billion is the new million'. This is why all the industry investment is shifting to the ARM/iOS/Android ecosystem from the WinTel ecosystem.
[..]

That is, the war is over. Yes, we'll go from 2.5bn smartphones to 5bn, but the dynamics of the two ecosystems will not change much with that growth."[11] comp.arch (talk) 17:47, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Device shipment usually means eventual sales to customers[edit]

If the devices shipped did not sell, we would be getting MORE headlines similar to "4 million tablets worth US$ 900 million left unsold".
So, Device shipment means eventual sales to customers, or in some rare cases, prizes for event participation. --Ne0 (talk) 07:37, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes of course devices are eventually sold (at least most), no business would buy much more than they can sell.. It could however be bought by the business in 2015 and sold to consumer in 2016. And sources only say about shipments in 2015. comp.arch (talk) 08:33, 23 September 2016 (UTC)