Talk:Vincente Minnelli

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Article Clarity[edit]

some of the language in this article seemed at points high falutin and would not be easily understandable by the average person so I have tried to make it slightly more down to earth and to the point. Arnie587 21:19, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

The url for the article seems to be spelled wrong- Minelli instead of MinnelliIful (talk) 08:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources for inclusion in categories[edit]

There were {{fact}} tags on two category tags for the article:

{{fact}} tags don't work for categories—they don't show up in the list of categories.

I've removed the category tags as well—they shouldn't be there unless they're well-sourced.66.73.170.248 05:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

(Back again—didn't mean to be anonymous; didn't see that I wasn't logged in.)Chidom talk  05:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sexuality[edit]

Although he was married several times, wasn't he gay? Jtyroler (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The url for the article seems to be spelled wrong- Minelli instead of Minnelli —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iful (talkcontribs) 08:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, at least bisexual, but this is Wikipedia! Several editors would like to rewrite history (not to mention the future) with no gays allowed! DCX (talk) 09:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The following post should tell you your fears are unfounded. If there's information published in reliable sources about a subject's gayness, then it's fair game to report it in Wikipedia. What Wikipedia does NOT do, though, is report rumours, innuendos and "he's obviously gay, the way he walks/talks/dresses/whatever" as fact. The best we could do is report, with citations, the fact that Minnelli has often been rumoured to be gay - because it is a fact; such rumours have been around for 50 years to my knowledge. But to convert those rumours into "he was gay" - that's a no-no. Not without a reputable source that says so. And why on earth should it be any different? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 12:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

A recent biographer specifically sought to find and confirm any gay relationships, including by interviewing those in Hollywood's known gay circles. Nobody could provide any names, relationships, anything other than the vaguest rumors (most of which where based on gay stereotypes - his sensitivity, gentleness, design acumen, etc.). When the biographer sought to get contact information from a Judy Garland biographer for a source he cited, the Garland biographer couldn't provide it and then failed to respond to further contact attempts. There was no information found to definitively establish whether or not Minnelli had any gay encounters at all.Biomebaby (talk) 04:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Emmanuel Levy's biography, Vincente Minnelli: Hollywood's Dark Dreamer (2009) provides evidence that Minnelli did live as an openly gay man in New York prior to relocating to Hollywood. In discussing Minnelli's marriage to Judy Garland, Levy reports that: “Judy caught him in compromising positions at least twice, once with a bit player and once with their gardener.” Jburlinson (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Levy's book is very poorly documented and purports many things without properly sourcing or supporting the assertions. His book is not credible. Biomebaby (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a passage in the article that refutes Levy's claims but that doesn't provide any reference to a reliable source that would support dismissing Levy's assertions. While some of the reviews I read of Levy's book criticized his writing style, none that I recall challenged his truthfulness or accuracy. The passage in question, especially the following statement, appears to be someone's opinion, but whose? "Presently, there is nothing but unsupported hearsay and stereotype-based rumor regarding any gay relationships in Minnelli's life." Unless there is a citation to an RS proving otherwise, Levy's biography would appear to be more than "unsupported hearsay and stereotype-based rumor." Jburlinson (talk) 00:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Jburlinson makes a good point. The lack of sourcing here sticks out. Also, I believe these are weasel words and also probably bad grammar: "However, upon checking Levy's noted sources for the Dorothy Parker-related information, none of his claims were evident." Grammatically, there's no one in this sentence doing the checking. I think it may signify original research. Relgif (talk) 19:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
So the Levy book is credible just because it's published? Let Jburlinson quote Levy's cited sources, if he can find them, instead of perpetuating the presentation of rumor and supposition as fact. Check some of the Amazon reviews for the book - a number of readers pointed out blatant errors. Levy's previous books have had accuracy issues also. The National Enquirer is published information - do you consider it a credible source? Biomebaby (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.180.114 (talk) 17:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Emanuel Levy is a Columbia University Ph.D. who has taught at Columbia University, the New School of Social Research, Wellesley College, Arizona State University, and UCLA Film School and is a two-time president of the Los Angeles Film Critics Association. His book on Minnelli has indeed been criticized, but primarily for the quality of the writing, not for the quality of the scholarship or the evidence. Quote from Washington Post review -- "it's the only full-length biography of Minnelli we're likely to get. Levy is a close observer of the films in question, and while his judgments rarely stray from the conventional ("It's useful to think about 'Lust for Life' as an intense melodramatic biopic"), he does afford some insight into the work's complexity." Quote from NY Times review -- "In this book, Levy errs on the side of thoroughness, with the paradoxical result that readers learn more than they ever wanted to know about Vincente Minnelli’s life". According to Cineaste: "Hollywood’s Dark Dreamer is exceptionally well researched. In addition to the 'invaluable information and materials' with which Anderson Minnelli provided him, Levy has drawn prodigiously from the Special Minnelli Collection at the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences Center for Motion Picture Study and the AMPAS Library. He has also drawn from interviews he conducted with Betty Comden, Robert Mitchum, Katharine Hepburn." Levy was encouraged to write his book by Minnelli's widow Lee Anderson Minnelli, who gave him complete access to her files of documents and letters. If there is a reliable source out there who has cast doubt on Levy's work, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Amazon reviews usually don't qualify -- but, here's a quote from one of them: "Several months ago, I attended a ceremony of the National Book Award for biographies and autobiographies of gay, lesbian and bisexual figures. Emanuel Levy's book on Vincente Minnelli, was deservedly one of the five finalists. After the event, I picked up the book and found it totally amazing. What Levy has done is take Minnelli's troubled sexual orientation vis-à-vis Hollywood's dominant sexual politics, and subjected all of the director's work to scrutiny along these lines." Jburlinson (talk) 04:14, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
You can trot out all the titles and kudos you want but it doesn't change the fact that Levy shows no verifiable primary sources to support his claims. --Biomebaby (talk) 02:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Camera dolly[edit]

Can someone put up a section on how he invented the camera dolly/crab dolly? 98.220.156.143 (talk) 23:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem is: there's no real way to tell who invented the crab dolly. Many filmmakers improvised during the course of their work to achieve similar results. Research shows many claims to the crab dolly going all the way back to the 1920s. A better approach might be to develop a section about his skilled use of camera movement, whatever equipment was used to achieve that movement. Biomebaby (talk) 01:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)