Talk:White Men Can't Jump (video game)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:White Men Can't Jump (video game)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 21:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'll take this on. Look for comments in the coming days. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC) Let's start working through the body of the article. Gameplay "White Men Can't Jump is a two-on-two half court sports game similar to NBA Jam and Jammit, described as a simulator of streetball, a variation of basketball played on outdoor courts with loose rules" -> this sentence is a mouthful and buries the main point, I think. See if you can distill this down to the most clear and concise explanation of what this game is, and put everything else later in the section.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) "There are fifteen teams made up of two basketball players in total, each with their own statistics and special slam dunks." -> "There are fifteen two-person teams, each with unique statistics and slam dunks."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Try to avoid repetitive structures. You use "There are" twice.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) " compete against each other or computer-controlled opponents, " move this to later in the section, where you talk about single player and AI controlled players.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) "Versus is a standard single match mode for one or four players." -> "... up to four players"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) " once the $5,000 are collected" -> "one the total amount is collected"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) "The player can pass, fake a pass, jump, shoot, dunk, and punch to knock down an opponent." -> This is a long list. Break it into two sentences, distinguishing between general basketball moves, versus the unique moves for this version of street ball.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) " use a turbo ability" -> "turbo" doesn't really mean anything here. Either explain it, or just call it a special ability.  Done -- The turbo ability in this game acts more like its NBA Jam counterpart, in that it is unlimited energy the player can use for a speed boost. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) "The player can switch between characters on the team when using an AI teammate in single-player." -> "In single player mode, the player can switch between the two team members, with the AI automatically controlling the other team member."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Try to improve the organization a little. There are some sentences that feel like a bunch of tangents stated in a row. If anything is so tangential that it can't be organized with some kind of flow, it may not even be relevant at all.  Done -- I did some re-organization in the gameplay section. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Let's start there. Thanks for your patience and work on this. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:OK, done with the gameplay section! I'll await for more comments. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Good improvements! We'll circle back around again, but I'd just throw a quick piece of advice on the gameplay section. The first sentence should clearly indicate it's a baskteball game, and the comparisons to other games should come later. (Or even in the development section.) Development The second paragraph is heavily sourced to instruction manuals and databases. I'm sympathetic to wanting to credit everyone on the project. But this is the kind of thing that becomes WP:UNDUE weight, without independent sources who are willing to talk about their work more substantially. Otherwise this is the kind of material that is best left in the infobox, if it is mentioned at all. What i could do is just mention the staff members mentioned in the review of MAN!AC magazine. However, i would need to figure how to still keep Damion Davis into the prose, given that this was his first project at High Voltage Software before becoming the company's lead artist. Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC) The third paragraph is heavily sourced to a forum post. This is another thing where I'm sympathetic with wanting to share more information about the development. But it's WP:UNDUE at best, and not WP:RELIABLE at worst. This one is worth more of a discussion. Are there any other sources for these facts? If we were to remove it, which fact do you think would be the biggest loss (and might we find another solution to preserve it)? This is the part that i knew before hand that it was going to become a major wall for a GA nomination. The thing is that the comments by Scott Corley came out of nowhere on the 3DO Zone forums. People had their doubts on the forum until Corley himself confirmed (1) it was him under the gpumgr nickname. From what i can see on the development section, these are some of the details that would be lost if the reference has to be removed: 1) Trimark commisioning HVS with the project; 2) How HVS hired members of the Jesse White Tumbling Team to perform movements for the characters and how the process went; 3) How the lead programmer created the basketball courts. While these details might not sound much at first glace, it denotes how the sprites and courts were created. Not to mention the relationship the game gave HVG with Atari, as they later worked on the Jaguar CD port of Vid Grid, Ruiner Pinball, and (IMO) the excellent Jaguar conversion of NBA Jam T.E. I did try looking for sources discussing the game's production more in-depth but to no avail unfortunately, meaning that the 3DO Zone post by Corley is (as of date) the only recollection of the game's development, given that he was the programmer of Ruiner Pinball at HVS. Unless Retro Gamer magazine takes interest in the game to make a "Making of" feature regarding WMCJ, which i doubt it will happen in the near future, the 3DO Zone forum post is all i could find about the game's history. Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Release "It was also covered by the press that were invited to Atari Corporation, and showcased during Atari's "Fun 'n' Games Day", an event for producers and developers to showcase upcoming Jaguar titles to the media" -> "It was also showcased at the Atari Corporation offices during "Fun 'n' Games Day", an event for producers and developers to showcase upcoming Jaguar titles to journalists."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2024 (UTC) " in tandem" -> you can remove this  Done -- I removed the line in question... Roberth Martinez (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Reception This section is mostly well written. But before we dive in on copy-editing, I'd see if you can do something to improve the organization and flow. It feels like a sequence of different opinions, and it's hard to pick up on a general summary of what's happening. Again, the individual sentences are pretty good. I would just recommend trying to put similar reviews into the same paragraph, so each paragraph starts to have its own mini-thesis or topic.  Done -- I re-arranged the reception section into positive, mixed, and negative paragraphs. Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC) I'd also encourage you to shorten some of the multi-sentence reviews to a single sentence, unless you felt it was really important.  Done -- I did some shortening to some of the sentences, hopefully... Roberth Martinez (talk) 20:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC) We can take another look at the reception after that, before giving the whole thing one more pass. This is generally well-written, and the big issues right now are the organization, and how to clean up the lower quality sources. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:00, 11 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:Second pass done! I'll await once more for comments... Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Thanks a lot for those changes and answers. A few recommendations on content: Development "It was co-produced by Allen Edwards and Kevin Hunt of Trimark Interactive." -> See if you can find a better source.  Done -- See comment below. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "Adisak Pochanayon did all the programming work for the game and Eric Nofsinger served as the lead artist." -> See if you can find a better source.  Done -- Since i couldn't find a source to back up Eric Nofsinger's involvement as lead artist outside of the MAN!AC and the game's manual, so i decied to merge both lines into ones for the time being... Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "The cover was illustrated by Damion Davis, being his first work in the video game industry before becoming lead artist at HVS." -> move the first source to after the comma, and use the Evening Tribune for after the comma.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "A composer for White Men Can't Jump is not credited, though Aardvark Action Audio is listed for providing the audio engine." -> Remove.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "In 2014, Ruiner Pinball programmer Scott Corley discussed about the game's production in a thread on the 3DO Zone community forums." -> Remove.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) The last paragraph -> See if you can get this down to a single sentence. e.g.: "According to programmer Scott Corley, HVS hired the Jesse White Tumblers to perform the game's movements, and their motion capture was edited in Deluxe Paint."  Done -- I did a comprimise to this particular line. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) ... using forum posts isn't ideal, and some editors will even argue that this is completely unreliable. (How do we even know this programmer is who they say they are?) But questionable sources can be used in narrow circumstances, and that's why I'm asking to narrow its use to a single sentence. I know but until a better source appears (unlikely as that may be), this is all that we have regarding the game's development for the time being. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Reception This is looking a little better. But see if you can put together a topic sentence for each paragraph, by aggregating a few sources. (e.g.: "In paragraph 1, several reviewers criticized the graphics.[][][] Example.[] Example.[] Example, with an added note.[] In paragraph 2, the multiplayer aspects of the game earned praise. Example.[] Example.[] Example, with an added note.[]") Oh, well i decided to go with the way you told me previously with Time Trax for the second rewrite of the reception section. Let me see what i can come up with for a possible third rewrite because i have yet to dominate how others do the reception section in other articles in that order... Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:51, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Gameplay " The game is described as a simulator of streetball, a variation of basketball with loose rules..." -> Move this (and a few more sentences) to just after the first sentence.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "... similar to NBA Jam and Jammit." -> Move this to later in the section, maybe after you describe it as street ball with loose rules.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC) "There are fifteen two-person teams, each with unique statistics and slam dunks. The game also features four different courts to choose from." -> Move this to later in the section, where you talk about teams, or game settings, or modes.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC) If we can lock down some of the content, we can come through another full pass on the article and tighten up the prose. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:Third pass done! I'll be on stand-by for further comments. Roberth Martinez (talk) 01:44, 15 February 2024 (UTC) The reception is so much clearer now, and we can spend some time working through the details. I'm going to circle back to the beginning, starting with the lead. Lead Change sports to basketball in the lead.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Use a pipe to change Atari Corporation to Atari.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " first title developed" -> " first game developed"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " The game is streetball with loose rules" -> "The game features a loose version of basketball known as "streetball".  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " and was the first title developed by HVS" -> you discuss this later, and it fits better there.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " played against human or computer-controlled opponents in versus or tournament modes on multiple courts. It came bundled with the Team Tap multitap, allowing four players to participate in tandem." -> "It can be played against computer-controlled opponents, or up to four human competitors using a bundled peripheral."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "In 1993, plans for a video game adaptation of White Men Can't Jump were announced following a licensing agreement between 20th Century Fox and Trimark Interactive, a subsidiary formed by Trimark Pictures to expand into the video game market. Trimark Interactive acquired the rights to the film license on all platforms and commissioned High Voltage Software with the project ..." -> "In 1993, Trimark Pictures expanded into the video game market as Trimark Interactive. Having negotiated the rights to White Men Can't Jump from 20th Century Fox, Trimark commissioned HVS to create a video game adaptation."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " entering production as one of Trimark Interactive's first releases, being announced for Jaguar in 1994. HVS hired members of the Jesse White Tumbling Team to perform all the movements of the game's digitized characters." -> "As one of the first game projects for both Trimark and HVS, the game was developed by hiring members of the Jesse White Tumblers for motion capture."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Replace the ; with a .  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC) ' Some reviewers criticized the controls, frame rate, camera angles, AI, and audio commentary." -> this is a long list and I don't think it adds anything beyond what you already said about "visuals, audio, and gameplay". I'm inclined to cut it.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Body "The game features four different courts to choose from." -> this would fit better in the next paragraph, after you discuss the fifteen teams players can choose from.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "The player can save and resume their progress by using "Keys"." -> this seems like really niche information (saving a game isn't a big deal), and it's only cited to the manual. Cut it.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "During gameplay, the camera perspective pans and zooms based on the action." -> Move this to earlier in the paragraph, after you discuss the player's moves, but before you discuss the different modes of play.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " acquired the rights to the film license" -> "acquired the rights to make a game"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "He also recalled that Pochanayon made the basketball court through perspective correction. Corley said that the project was a positive experience for the staff, as it gave them a good relationship with Atari Corporation and served as a learning exercise for later projects related to motion capture." -> cut. Like I said above, you can maybe get away with a forum post for a brief mention, but not a full paragraph.  Done -- I shortened the paragraph. Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " planning for release" -> "announced for release"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " an event for producers and developers to showcase " -> "an event to showcase" (shorter)  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Reception Let's adjust the order of the reception a bit. Put the multiplayer paragraph right after the opening sentence about "mixed reception". It's normal to lead with the positive, and then dive into the negative.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Put the paragraph about gameplay and controls right after that. It's good to work your way to the negative more slowly, and gameplay is more important in a game article. ("Reviewers were divided regarding the gameplay and controls...)  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "Video Games' Jan Barysch remarked that the poor controls and frustrating AI hampered its fun factor." -> try to put this before the other reviewer who commented on AI. (" Özelsel felt that the single-player mode became boring due to the AI.")  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "Next Generation applauded its intense violence and generally solid balance." -> put this earlier in the paragraph, next to the other positive comment.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC) We are trying to create an organization and flow here, and I think that will help. The paragraph where "The graphics and camera drew criticism" can come right after that. And visuals will flow nicely into audio. " over the audio department" -> "over the audio"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC) "Writing for MyAtari magazine, Robert Jung gave favorable comments to the game for its varied number of teams, tournament mode, intelligence of computer opponents, and flashy dunks. However, he saw the constantly changing camera view, unimpressive graphical department, choppy frame rate, and soundscapes as shortcomings." -> "Writing for MyAtari magazine, Robert Jung gave praised the game's modes, teams, and flashy drunks, but criticized the quality of the art and graphical technology."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC) " Author Andy Slaven considered it a fresh and distinct arcade-style game, citing its controls and fast gameplay," -> " Author Andy Slaven appreciated its fast arcade-style gameplay,"  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC) Is the Seanbaby source in EGM? If so, see if you can find the actual citation to the magazine (and use the mirror as an archive). But if it's just his website, this would need to be cut.  Done -- I found the original magazine source. Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC) You could probably add the note from the "Evening Tribune" noting it as one of the worst games of all time.  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC) I know that's a lot. But these notes will get it to GA quality, if not very close. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:Fourth pass done! I'll await for the final comments. Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC) We are indeed very close now. The reception still needs a bit of work, but everything else can be wrapped up with a few small changes. Lead " on multiple courts" -> this is a small detail that doesn't need to be in the lead  Done -- I removed the line. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC) " members of " -> same thing  Done -- I removed the line. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC) " and retrospective" -> let's simplify this too. the last sentence talks about retrospective commentators (though you could blend in mixed and worst in the last sentence, if you felt it was more accurate)  Done -- I changed the line. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC) Body "The player immediately enters the Inglewood Forum and participates in the tournament once the total amount is collected, but the game is over if the money bet is lost and not paid back to the loan sharks" -> "After the player collects enough money, they automatically enter the tournament at the Inglewood Forum, but the game is over if the player fails to pay back the loan sharks."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC) " unlimited enery" -> " unlimited energy"  Done -- I corrected the word Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC) The word "unlimited" is a little confusing here, since you talk about it increasing in the next few words. I suggest just dropping that word, since it makes more sense without it.  Done -- I removed the word in question. Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC) "Trimark Interactive acquired the rights to make a game on all platforms and commisioned HVS with the project, entering production as one of Trimark Interactive's first releases." -> "Trimark Interactive acquired the rights to make a game on all platforms and commisioned HVS to design it, entering production as one of Trimark Interactive's first games."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC) Reception "Mega Fun's Timur Özelsel said that the game is fun with more players, while Next Generation remarked that multiple players are required to fully enjoy it." / "Özelsel felt that the single-player mode became boring due to the AI." -> (let's cut the second sentence and try to combine the ideas here, where it flows.) "Mega Fun's Timur Özelsel criticized the single-player AI, feeling that the game is fun with more players. Next Generation also remarked that multiple players are required to fully enjoy it."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC) "Baggatta approved of how well the game recreated the feeling of streetball. Next Generation applauded its intense violence and generally solid balance." -> "Baggatta approved of the game's simulation of streetball, while Next Generation praised the game's balance and intense violence."  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC) " miss the hoop even when shot in the correct direction from right next to the basket" -> "miss even when the player is next to the basket". (simpler)  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC) " Video Games' Jan Barysch remarked that the poor controls and frustrating AI hampered its fun factor. ST Magazine's Marc Abramson stated that the controls take time getting used to." -> "ST Magazine's Marc Abramson stated that the controls take time to get used to, while Video Games' Jan Barysch felt that the fun factor was undermined by poor controls and frustrating AI." (flow)  Done -- Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC) Thanks for your hard work and patience, on the references too. This is turning into a really solid article. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:Done with the fifth pass! Hopefully this one sticks the landing... Roberth Martinez (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC) Happy to promote this to GA. I made a few more minor copy edits, and thanks again for working through all of the improvements. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC) @Shooterwalker:Thank You for reviewing yet another Jaguar article i nominated :D Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:27, 19 February 2024 (UTC) I like seeing editors who care about historic games. Keep up the good work! Shooterwalker (talk) 04:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)