Talk:William Stafford (conspirator)

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Margaret Fogge's Mother[edit]

On different sites they name Margaret Fogge's mother as being Margaret Goldwell.

"His descendant Sir Nicholas de Criol, or Keriel, died possessed of it in the 3d year of king Richard II. and from him it devolved at length by succession to Sir Thomas Keriel, for so their name was then in general spelt, who was slain in the second battle of St. Albans, in the 38th year of Henry VI. in asserting the cause of the house of York. On his death without male issue, his two daughters became his coheirs, (fn. 5) viz. Elizabeth, married to John Bourchier, esq. and Alice, to John Fogge, esq. of Repton, afterwards knighted, whose second wife she was; and on the division of their inheritance, Westenhanger was allotted to the latter. He had by her one son, Sir Thomas Fogge, sergeant-porter of Calais in the reigns of king Henry VII. and VIII. who sold his interest in it to his elder brother, (by his father's first wise Alice Haut) Sir John Fogge, of Repton, and he, about the beginning of king Henry VIII.'s reign". -- from British History.

There is no mention of a daughter named Margaret. Can someone please tell me where this information that Margaret Fogge's mother was this Sir John Fogge and Alice Keriel came from? -- Lady Meg (talk) 04:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

There does seem to be a problem. The ODNB page on John Fogge (c.1417-1490) says this: Fogge married twice. His first wife was Alice Kyriel. He then married again, his second wife being Alice Haute. She was the mother of his son Thomas, and probably of his daughters Anne, Elisabeth, and Margaret. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, Sir John and Alice Haute or "Hawte" were parents to Joan Fogge who married Sir Thomas Green, they were grandparents to Queen Katherine Parr. I cannot access the ODNB because I don't have a subscription -- is there a way you could copy it send it to me? Is that even possible on here? I tried already to get into the file, no luck. Also, the lineage is off. If this Sir John is the father of Margaret Fogge, Sir John Fogge's parents were Sir William Fogge and a Miss Septvans. -- Lady Meg (talk) 06:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the right approach is to create the article John Fogge: he's certainly a notable figure. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
There is an extensive page here about John Fogge and it references the ODNB article by Rosemary Horrox. It is not the sort of page to use directly as a reference; but I see some titles there that are standard scholarly books, and putting together a page on Fogge shouldn't be out of reach. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:12, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, I have started the page. As far as I can see, the idea that John Fogge's father was William Fogge is wrong (and this is mentioned in several places). John Fogge's father was another John Fogge, according to the ODNB. There are older sources, and they may have jumped to the conclusion that since John Fogge inherited property from William Fogge, he was the son; but the ODNB article explains that this was from another line of the family. The Alice Haute ancestry checks out. The Criol/Kyriel connection of the first wife may well be right, but I haven't looked into this yet. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I was going to make the page -- but I see you have started. On his father -- where exactly are they getting the information? There are a bunch of sources stating the father is a William. Here are a few Crofts Peerage; The Main Historical; Fogge Family of America -- So I'm just wondering where you're getting your information as I cannot access most of those pages. -- Lady Meg (talk) 00:32, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Again, those pages that I can access, says nothing about his father. Here is yet another source which says William Fogge is Sir John Fogge's father. The Antiquary -- Lady Meg (talk) 00:41, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
And again in this book -- The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 95. -- Lady Meg (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

All I can say is that nineteenth-century genealogical sources are often enough wrong. The Horrox article would normally be taken as a reliable source in Wikipedia's sense. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)