Template:Did you know nominations/Doctors Medical Center

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to promote after 32 days. The serious concerns regarding the faithfulness of the article to its sources render promotion to the Main page within the short timeframe of DYK unviable. Cunard (talk) 11:17, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Doctors Medical Center[edit]

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... that Doctors Medical Center had to be bailed out by voters and the state legislature to continue to provide the only full service, emergency, and specialty services the Richmond, California area? }} Created/expanded by Luciferwildcat (talk).

  • The nominated article is new enough, just long enough, but is not sufficiently referenced to meet DYK requirements. Please review rule D2. Beyond that, the article is thinly sourced, with only one reference and I'm unsure whether that reference would even meet the test of a reliable source (I'm not saying that it does not, but I'm saying that I'm not sure without having looked at it too closely). But that is a moot point anyway, as I would really like to see more than one source being used for this article anyway. There is no requirement for you to review another nomination, as you appear to have only one DYK credit as yet (this requirement starts when you have five). I have left the review of the hook fact for now, as there are some steep hurdles to get over first. The hook length just comes under the 200 character (including spaces) limit. Schwede66 17:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Having now looked more closely, the reference is self-published and thus does not meet the requirement of a reliable source. The following statement appears under the reference: "This article is part of ChronicleJobs, a weekly advertising feature produced by the Marketing Department of the San Francisco Chronicle, and does not involve the editorial staff." You will have to find some reliable sources before this can go anywhere. Schwede66 18:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
  • The above concerns have not been addressed within a week. The article is still too short, and the only reference is self-published. The only action by the nominator was to remove the self-published source template within hours of me placing it. I have reinstated that template and explained the situation in more detail on the article's talk page. With no progress, we will unfortunately have to reject the article. Schwede66 00:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I've been busy but I can improve it still.LuciferWildCat (talk) 01:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I have addressed the length and added additional references. Let me know what else needs to be done. I am sorry it took me so long but I am a student taking 20 units and simply did not want to do a half assed job. I can continue adding more content. If you look at the talk page there are more sources that could be used to add.LuciferWildCat (talk) 22:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The article has been expanded and is no longer a stub - great! It has more references now, but still does not meet the DYK referencing requirements (please do review rule D2). Duplication Detector does not identify anything of concern. The hook has several issues: a) It's not a proper sentence (the word 'in' may be missing), b) it lists numerous facts, which makes it hard to comprehend and appear dull; I suggest that less is more, c) where in the article does it talk about the 'state legislature'?, d) each little fact in the hook needs to have a direct reference in the article where the fact is mentioned (after each sentence mentioning the fact); this DYK requirement is not met. So overall, whilst this is a lot better now, we are not quite there yet. Schwede66 09:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Nope the county, and the voters, and the state all got involved as per lobbying the governor[1], and SB 644, so let's go back to the original version of the hook. Furthermore I have taken care of all the citations needed, most were already cited in sources provided but I used the opportunity to find additional sources and content.LuciferWildCat (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Can we add this picture as well?

LuciferWildCat (talk) 02:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

  • "The hospital was bailed out through several loan, state funding, and ballot measure schemes throughout the 2000s decade as it struggled to remain open. The hospital is also suffering from difficulties in obtaining the proper funding to retrofit and modernize to meet the state's strict earthquake proofing building standards."
  • This is sourced to East Bay Mayors Press Governor To Save Doctors Medical Center, KCBS, CBS5, 24-09-2011, access date 13-03-2012
  • The source does not verify "The hospital was bailed out through several loan, state funding, and ballot measure schemes"
    Please check the article for close paraphrasing and failed verifications. I will be closing this DYK nomination as "no consensus to promote" if I see concerns in a subsequent review because the nomination has been open for a while now. Cunard (talk) 00:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The sources within the article make the statements made therein very clear and verified.LuciferWildCat (talk) 08:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Alas I line item added them to that line and edited the sentence to make is crystal clear, hope that does the trick.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:25, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't see how you fixed the problem I pointed out above. The wrong source still supports the sentence I quoted above. Cunard (talk) 09:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    Okay, I thought as long as it was at the end of the paragraph it was ok but since it's more strict than that, I added them in line as well. Thanks for not dropping the nomination. I am just trying to get things right. Let me know.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:31, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    Oh and that was edit conflicted into the wrong place, I do believe I have taken care of that issue.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:31, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    No worries. I am glad you have learned something new today: Each sentence should be supported by the closest reference that follows it. Would you review the article to ensure that you are doing this for every sentence? Cunard (talk) 09:35, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • For "The hospital was bailed out through several state loan, county funding, and ballot measure schemes throughout the 2000s decade as it struggled to remain open.[1][2][5][6][7]", would you provide quotes here from each article to show which part of the sentence is verified? Cunard (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The whole thing is verified here, that is why I have so many citations there. I didn't just arbitrarily pile them on.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Please provide quotes from each article so I do not have to read all five of them. Cunard (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Sure, I'll get right on that. Also, I just finished citing every sentence in paragraphs that were only sourced at the end, and in addition to that the other two sentences that were not cited.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    1. 1 supports the "ballot measure" facet of the various schemes and starts off "Voters in west Contra Costa County overwhelmingly passed a parcel tax Tuesday to resuscitate Doctors Medical Center in San Pablo, which has the region's only full-service emergency room. Measure J won by 74 percent, according to semiofficial results. It needed a two-thirds majority to pass."LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    2. 2 clearly states, "Contra Costa County supervisors unanimously approved a $20 million bailout Tuesday for Doctors Medical Center in San Pablo that should allow the hospital to reopen its emergency room to ambulances by Thursday.", You know the titles to these articles and beyond that the very first sentences support the claims made.LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:55, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    3. 5 states "State Senator Loni Hancock authored the legislation for SB-644 to give Doctors Medical Center San Pablo borrowing power and to protect investors who loan the money."LuciferWildCat (talk) 09:58, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    4. 7 and finally 7 shows that the state law for the loan guarantee scheme passed. "2011-10-09 - Approved by the Governor."LuciferWildCat (talk) 10:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Thank you. Please note that sometimes not every sentence has to have a citation; see the following case:

    Although the hospital has been able to stay afloat, it has had to cut costs to the "bone" including discontinuing obstetrics.[2] It is one of only two hospitals that accept Medi-Cal in the county which comprise 80% of its users, while 10% have private insurance or none whatsoever, respectively.[2]

    is more usually written as:

    Although the hospital has been able to stay afloat, it has had to cut costs to the "bone" including discontinuing obstetrics. It is one of only two hospitals that accept Medi-Cal in the county which comprise 80% of its users, while 10% have private insurance or none whatsoever, respectively.[2]

    because both sources are supported by [2]. Also, references are usually ordered. For example,

    The hospital is also suffering from difficulties in obtaining the proper funding to retrofit and modernize to meet the state's strict earthquake proofing building standards.[7][5][1][2]

    is usually represented as [1][2][5][7]. Cunard (talk) 10:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "It is the only burn, cardiac, stroke, and cancer center in Contra Costa County." is cited to:
  • http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2005/05/01/preemp.DTL states: "Today, the hospital has the largest emergency room in Western Contra Costa County and offers services such as cancer treatment, obstetrics and burn care."
  • I don't see how the first claim is directly supported by the source to which it is cited. I don't think that's sufficient because it is possible (though unlikely) that there is another center with the same services, one that is not as large as Doctors Medical Center. There appear to be serious issues with faithfulness to the sources in this article. Thank you for your hard work on the article, Luciferwildcat, but I think the article needs substantial work. Insufficient within the timeframe of DYK.
    . Cunard (talk) 10:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC) Revised Cunard (talk) 10:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • There isn't one that is the problem, the only other health facilities are a county clinic, the Richmond Medical Center and the Kaiser Medical Offices in Pinole.LuciferWildCat (talk) 22:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
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