Template:Did you know nominations/Humboldt Wagon Road
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Dylan620 talk 21:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
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Humboldt Wagon Road
... that the Humboldt Wagon Road passed through four California counties, but went nowhere near Humboldt County?Source: Chang, Anita L. "The Historical Geography of the Humboldt Wagon Road", Association of Northern California Records and Research, 1992, p. 19 (source not available online)Mark, Andy, "Stories of the Humboldt Wagon Road", The History Press, 2020, p. 89: [1]ALT1: ... that stagecoaches on the Humboldt Wagon Road could make the 400-mile (640 km) trip from Chico, California to Ruby City, Idaho in under four days, for a $60 fare?Source: Mark, Andy, "Stories of the Humboldt Wagon Road", The History Press, 2020, p. 29 [2]- Reviewed:
- Comment: I prefer the first hook.
Created by WeirdNAnnoyed (talk). Self-nominated at 16:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Humboldt Wagon Road; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
Interesting article on California history. New enough (nominated on same day article was moved into mainspace); long enough (7180 characters). Well sourced and neutral. Earwig doesn't return meaningful results because most sources are books. Citation of multiple sources suggests there isn't a copyvio problem and spot check doesn't seem to indicate close paraphrasing. AGF on book source for hook...but my main nit there is that if you're citing Chang for the first hook (ALT0), shouldn't you also be citing Chang within the article for that one sentence lacking a footnote at the moment? Or are you citing Chang for only part of that hook because the second half of the sentence is common sense inference? The problem with ALT1 is that it is too "complete" – all the facts you need are in the hook itself and there is no reason to click further to answer the question / read the article. It appears submitter is a new to DYK and is thus exempt from the QPQ review requirement, though for future reference WeirdNAnnoyed, it would be helpful to indicate in the Comment section (or Review section) whether it's your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th DYK submission. (After that, you have to do QPQ reviews along with the rest of us.) So really just need clarification on why the sentence in the article corresponding to the hook lacks a citation at the end. Cielquiparle (talk) 09:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for feedback, this is indeed my first nomination so I apologize for getting some details wrong. The reason I didn't add a citation at the end is common sense inference, as you say. This can be confirmed by consulting a map; the trail's westernmost point was about 100 miles from the nearest point in Humboldt County. I have a paper copy of the Chang reference and can upload an image of the relevant page if that would help with documentation. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- @WeirdNAnnoyed: No need to apologize at all! This is just part of the standard DYK review and bulletproofing process which continues all the way until the day the DYK runs on the main page, when thousands of people read it (and are liable to poke holes if there are problems). (In other words, we're just trying to identify and resolve any potential issues sooner rather than later, because if it happens on the day, the hook could get pulled off the main page.) In this case, I see that there is a Humboldt County, Nevada that gave the road its name (for example per this source) ("One of those connections was to mines in Humboldt County in Nevada, which gave the local road its name."). Maybe you knew that, but I didn't when I initially read the hook and article, so now I feel that ALT0 is problematic. That said, we could try a version of the hook that plays on the fact that there are two Humboldt Counties, going for the final slot which is often reserved for "quirky" or playful hooks (and hence allows for a bit more leeway):
- ALT2: ... that the Humboldt Wagon Road connected Humboldt County but not Humboldt County?
- What do you think? (If we were going to use that, we would have to make a couple of changes in the article itself.) In any case, could you try to propose at least one more hook, so the promoter has a couple good ones to choose from? Cielquiparle (talk) 17:00, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle:: Thanks for that source, I had not found that one. It disagrees with the reference I have, which specifically names the mining district, but since the county was probably named for the mines it's not a major discrepancy. I really like your hook! I have edited the text of the article to make it more compatible with your suggestion; please let me know what you think.
- @WeirdNAnnoyed: I made further edits (and added a different source) to resolve the issue, as I actually don't see it as a discrepancy. I'm just not sure if ALT2 will be accepted, but I am pinging @Lightburst: to see if they might be able to assess whether the hook would work? (I can't approve my own hook anyway.) Cielquiparle (talk) 04:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @WeirdNAnnoyed: No need to apologize at all! This is just part of the standard DYK review and bulletproofing process which continues all the way until the day the DYK runs on the main page, when thousands of people read it (and are liable to poke holes if there are problems). (In other words, we're just trying to identify and resolve any potential issues sooner rather than later, because if it happens on the day, the hook could get pulled off the main page.) In this case, I see that there is a Humboldt County, Nevada that gave the road its name (for example per this source) ("One of those connections was to mines in Humboldt County in Nevada, which gave the local road its name."). Maybe you knew that, but I didn't when I initially read the hook and article, so now I feel that ALT0 is problematic. That said, we could try a version of the hook that plays on the fact that there are two Humboldt Counties, going for the final slot which is often reserved for "quirky" or playful hooks (and hence allows for a bit more leeway):
- Thanks for feedback, this is indeed my first nomination so I apologize for getting some details wrong. The reason I didn't add a citation at the end is common sense inference, as you say. This can be confirmed by consulting a map; the trail's westernmost point was about 100 miles from the nearest point in Humboldt County. I have a paper copy of the Chang reference and can upload an image of the relevant page if that would help with documentation. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- @WeirdNAnnoyed and Cielquiparle: ALT2 is confounding and does provoke interest. I instantly know it is a trick question but it does make me click and find out how it is possible. I think many people like to solve puzzles. So this road passes through a "mining district in Humboldt County, Nevada" but does not connect to "Humboldt County, California". I believe one line that supports this hook does not have a citation. The last line in route description.
though nowhere near California's Humboldt County, far to the west on the Pacific Coast.
Since this line is central to the hook, it needs to be cited per WP:DYKHFC. If we perhaps cite it with a map it may be obvious to the reader, and we hope it will not be considered WP:OR. Lightburst (talk) 16:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)- @Lightburst: Thanks for reviewing and for the suggestion for a solution. @WeirdNAnnoyed: Do you have a map clearly showing the Humboldt Wagon Road which illustrates the claim made in the ALT2 hook and in the article, which we could cite in the article? Cielquiparle (talk) 16:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle:: Sadly no, the best I can do is this map: [3], which shows the Humboldt Wagon Road leading NE out of Chico, but does not label it as such. Is it OR to point out that the closest the road got to California's Humboldt County was Chico, which is about 90 miles from Humboldt as the crow flies? I tried to indicate that with the map in the article, but that's my own work based on references 1 and 2 from the article. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 23:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Lightburst: Thanks for reviewing and for the suggestion for a solution. @WeirdNAnnoyed: Do you have a map clearly showing the Humboldt Wagon Road which illustrates the claim made in the ALT2 hook and in the article, which we could cite in the article? Cielquiparle (talk) 16:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- @WeirdNAnnoyed and Cielquiparle: ALT2 is confounding and does provoke interest. I instantly know it is a trick question but it does make me click and find out how it is possible. I think many people like to solve puzzles. So this road passes through a "mining district in Humboldt County, Nevada" but does not connect to "Humboldt County, California". I believe one line that supports this hook does not have a citation. The last line in route description.
@Cielquiparle and WeirdNAnnoyed: What is the status of this nomination? What needs to happen to get this approved? Z1720 (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- I found a map in one of the books referenced, which we could cite, but think we still need to reword the sentence accordingly. I might have time next week to track down the other book. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:20, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Lightburst: Could you please check the sourcing for the claim made in ALT2 in the article now and let us know if you approve? I have added a citation to reference 1, which contains an 1865–1867 map of the road (which you should be able to access via the Google Books link), and also adjusted the target sentence accordingly (with the dates). Cielquiparle (talk) 06:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle: I forgot all about this nomination. I added a source to show that Humboldt Ca is on the coast of CA - The source states: "Humboldt County is located on California’s northern Pacific Coast." So it is evident that it is not where the road ends. I cannot see the other source for the counties it passes through so I AGF. So I think we are square with the hook. Lightburst (talk) 02:59, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Approving ALT2. To be clear, I wrote that hook but it was approved by the DYK nominator as well as a second reviewer of the hook (Lightburst). To confirm, I have also now re-read the article "fresh" as there were some fairly exciting edits to it at the end of December (incorporating feedback from one of the authors of one of the books, who also pointed to other sources to check out and reference; see the article Talk page for more info). Kudos to WeirdNAnnoyed for your patience and perseverance with this one. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:29, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle: I forgot all about this nomination. I added a source to show that Humboldt Ca is on the coast of CA - The source states: "Humboldt County is located on California’s northern Pacific Coast." So it is evident that it is not where the road ends. I cannot see the other source for the counties it passes through so I AGF. So I think we are square with the hook. Lightburst (talk) 02:59, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Lightburst: Could you please check the sourcing for the claim made in ALT2 in the article now and let us know if you approve? I have added a citation to reference 1, which contains an 1865–1867 map of the road (which you should be able to access via the Google Books link), and also adjusted the target sentence accordingly (with the dates). Cielquiparle (talk) 06:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
