Template:Did you know nominations/Ride On, Ride On in Majesty!

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Sven Manguard Wha? 19:54, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ride On, Ride On in Majesty![edit]

Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey

Created by The C of E (talk). Self nominated at 10:46, 21 March 2014 (UTC).

  • I'm not seeing that in the source given... Adam Cuerden (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The following has been checked in this review by Maile
  • QPQ done by C of E
  • Article created by The C of E on March 21, 2014 and has 1,551 characters of readable prose
  • Every paragraph sourced, both online and offline
  • Hook is stated in the article and sourced online at the bottom of the source page This hymn ranks with the best of the author's lyrics, and is the most popular hymn for Palm Sunday in the English language.--John Julian, Dictionary of Hymnology (1907)
  • Image appears in the article and is sourced on Commons
  • Duplication Detector check of online sourcing found no copyvio
  • Disambig links tool found no issues
  • External links tool found no issues
  • Symbol confirmed.svg This is good 2 go. Very nice little article, with a good image of what Palm Sunday represents. Do you want this to run on Palm Sunday, April 13? If so, which time zone? — Maile (talk) 21:39, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
    Either 8/9 or 16/17:00 UTC/BST/GMT would be good. I created this exactly to run on Palm Sunday. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 23:25, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
      • Um, point of order: While I now see the line - you have to click to expand the text - the quote given is from 1907, but the fact is given in the present tense. I don't think that evidence it was the most popular hymn on Palm Sunday over a hundred years ago is sufficient to prove its present popularity. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, let's try a variation:

  • ALT1 ... that the Dictionary of Hymnology called Ride On, Ride On in Majesty! (Jesus entering Jerusalem pictured) "the most popular hymn for Palm Sunday in the English language"?
— Maile (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Pinging The C of E

We'd need to add the year, though. And fix it in the article. Adam Cuerden (talk) 01:13, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT1b ... that the Dictionary of Hymnology called Ride On, Ride On in Majesty! (Jesus entering Jerusalem pictured) "the most popular hymn for Palm Sunday in the English language" in 1907?
I don't agree that the date needs to be there, based on the fact that on hooks that are saying in effect "that so-and-so has been called..." and it leads to a quote....nobody ever puts a date. And it's very seldom a recent quote they've got there. In fact, if this went with the normal flow of DYK these days, the hook would say this:
  • ALT2 ... that Ride On, Ride On in Majesty! (Jesus entering Jerusalem pictured) has been called "the most popular hymn for Palm Sunday in the English language"?
— Maile (talk) 01:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
When talking about popularity, that the quote is over a century old is pretty relevant. If the quote was something like "the most beautiful hymn for Palm Sunday", then, sure, but popularity is entirely time-dependent, and Adam Cuerden (talk) 05:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • We now need an uninvolved party to review the hooks. I've posted a request at WT:DYK — Maile (talk) 11:27, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
And I firmly object to any hook that doesn't date the claims of popularity, and top the highly misleading text in the article meant to support it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Symbol question.svg I've got no problem with ALT2; it's accurate, and I don't feel it's misleading — I wouldn't interpret it as meaning "this is currently the most popular hymn". The date of the claim is an additional detail which readers will discover upon clicking through to the article; it's not essential to include it in the hook. However, the quote used in the hook will need to be present in the article before I can approve it. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:23, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
As I read the article, I can see another possible hook:
ALT3 ... that the Palm Sunday hymn Ride On, Ride On in Majesty! (Jesus entering Jerusalem pictured) "draws the singer into the very centre of the drama"?
— Maile (talk) 16:37, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Symbol possible vote.svg (edit conflict) Not only does the quote need to be in the article before it can be used in the hook, it needs to be sourced properly. (It's in Milman's article on hymnary.org, not the individual hymn's article.) I am also troubled by the lede's present-day claim of "is one of the most popular" being based on a quote published 106 years ago: taste definitely changes over time, and something far more recent is needed to support "is". I would be perfectly happy with a hook wording such as "was once called" without a date, so long as it's clear this was in the past. However, the article should be more explicit about who made the characterization, its context, and when, which should then be reflected in the lede unless another source has a contemporary equivalent to that claim. Note that even if ALT3 is used (it was added while I wrote this comment), the article will have to address the issues of sourcing and accuracy. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Can't we go with something like ... that Ride On, Ride On in Majesty!'s first verse was deleted by some hymn book editors due to an allegorical description of Jesus' donkey pursuing its road? - there's other facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam Cuerden (talkcontribs) 2:16, 24 March 2014
No, I don't really like that one. Alt2 or Alt4 will be fine I feel. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:44, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Symbol confirmed.svg Okay, I'm approving ALT4. The article is now very clear about who made this claim and when, and the hook leaves no room for misinterpretation. BlueMoonset is mistaken about the sourcing; the claim is present on the cited webpage (you have to click "Read more", under "Notes"). And I've wikilinked "Palm Sunday" in the hook. DoctorKubla (talk) 15:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I still say that, without some indication of when, it's, at best, misleading, and, at worst, misinformation. Alt 4 is, at least, better in this respect, but I'm not sure it's quite far enough. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:24, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Adam, I realize you disagree, but making it clearly something that was true in the past is sufficient for this hook in my opinion. It can't be misinformation if it's true, and it isn't misleading because there is no longer any attempt to to make it seem current. You're welcome to ask for another opinion, perhaps from one of the DYK regulars who are also admins, but I very much doubt any of them will object to the omission of the exact year the statement was published. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)