Template talk:Userbox table userbox

On 22 March 2023, it was proposed that this page be moved from Template:Yy to Template:Userbox table userbox. The result of the discussion was moved.

Brackets

I'm pretty sure that the square brackets around the WikiText should be {{ }} and not [[ ]], because templates use curly brackets, not square.
Thanks, CrazyMinecart88 12:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed in {{yy}} and related templates. I've also created page Template:Yy/testcases. —⁠andrybak (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The opposite of "top" is "bottom".

@Tavix: Your edit here in late April of last year—I assume the G7 request came from Buaidh...? Did you look at the history? We've gone back and forth over whether it should be named {{yyend}} or {{yybottom}} before. I've argued that the opposite of "top" is "bottom". This is why similar templates like {{Usbkbottom}} are named this way. No matter how many times I say this and change it, Buaidh sneakily reverts me without pinging me nor triggering the notification system by doing a proper revert. This is one of the more stubborn editors I've encountered in my 17 years here. That user's only counterargument (such as in the edit summary here) is that "yyend" is already in use on hundreds of pages. I've explained to them many times before that a redirect is left behind, but that user has to have it their way or the highway, and doesn't care to articulate a valid counterargument. Can we please make a decision based on facts and consensus, rather than accidentally becoming a pawn in an non-collaborative user's game? — voidxor 17:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize I was sneaky. Yytop and Yyend have different functions and don't need to be opposites. I created the Yy templates as an alternative to the Usbk system and they have many have many additional functions. I don't feel they need to follow the president of Usbk. You can always use the REDIRECT Yybottom if you find this offensive. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 18:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buaidh: Really?! We've been slowly edit warring about this for over two years now. How did you not realize that you were being sneaky when you ignore my arguments and choose to—time after time—manually revert me so as to (apparently) fly under my radar? Also, manually cutting and pasting articles is forbidden, yet you keep doing it even though I reverted and commented as much the last time.

Anyway, I'm tired of your red-herring arguments, so I'll just address all of your points one-by-one:

Yytop and Yyend have different functions...
I know.
...and don't need to be opposites.
Their naming should reflect oppose ends (in proper English), because they are used in tandem—one at the top of a group of userboxes and one at the bottom.
I don't feel they need to follow the president of Usbk.
It's precedent (speaking of word use) and I mostly agree that we don't need to be tied to {{Usbk}}; I was more pointing to the reason that Usbk and countless other template pairs use "top" and "bottom". Some use "start" and "end" because those two words are opposites. Yours is the only template pair that errantly uses "top" and "end" as opposites.
You can always use the REDIRECT Yybottom...
I have been, though you've often reverted my template usage as well. Why can't we just move the template and leave it?
...if you find this offensive.
"Offensive" isn't the best word. I'm just trying to get the template under the better name for it.
Yyend is used on hundreds of pages.
It doesn't matter. This is a true red herring. The beauty of redirects (as you just acknowledged, so I know you know) is that templates can be moved without breaking transclusions. We move templates all of the time, when a better name is determined. Heck, {{Refimprove}} was moved to {{More citations needed}} five years ago even though hundreds of thousands of articles transcluded it at the time.
Yyend is shorter.
See previous response.

— voidxor 21:28, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "bottom" sits better with the word "top". But more importantly let's rename the template so that it's purpose is clearer. "yy" means nothing to anyone. Something like "Userbox list" might be better? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:55, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@MSGJ: I've long had that feeling too, but didn't want to conflate the issue. It's been enough of a fight to just get "bottom". Also of course, your proposal would involve renaming a handful of templates. Should we separate it into another proposal? — voidxor 16:39, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you are going to move a template, it is considered proper Wikipedia etiquette to contact the template creator for input before making the move. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 20:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Either Yyend or Yybottom

The documentation for Template:Yyend now states: "Template:Yyend (or alternatively Template:Yybottom if you prefer) always comes last and completes the table." Hopefully this will satisfy everyone. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 20:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buaidh: No, you keep missing the point. The template needs to be located at the best name for it. That is how it's worked around here for a long time. For instance, I pointed out how {{Refimprove}} was renamed {{More citations needed}} five years ago. You need to drop your ownership crap and be more open to input from others. And please self-revert your cut-and-paste move here and here as soon as possible, per WP:MOVE: Do not move or rename a page by cutting and pasting its content, because doing so fragments the edit history. — voidxor 23:57, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not missing the point. The point is you have an adamant position that do do not wish to relinquish. You will not give up until you have your way. I chose what I considered the best names for these templates. I'm sorry you do not agree. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 23:32, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're seeing this in an awfully black-and-white manner. I do think "bottom" is a better name than "end", and I've stated why I feel that way multiple times. One other editor agreed. I've suggested that you can oppose, but I have yet to see you state why "end" is better than "bottom". You're simply defensive, as above, because that is the way you set it up in the first place. — voidxor 19:29, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. - Please don't edit my comments. Buaidh talk e-mail 23:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't. I simply fixed your indent which is considered "non-contentious cleanup" per Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages § Refactoring overview. You've gone and split one active discussion into three sections. — voidxor 19:29, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have. Buaidh talk e-mail 20:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Full names

If we want full names for these templates, I would suggest the following:

The original template names can be used as shortened redirects. Any other suggestions? Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 20:57, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think these are overly long, quite possibly to prove a point and derail my discussion above. Anyway, moving on, @MSGJ: what do you think of Buaidh's names above? — voidxor 19:29, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Voidxor, shame! We asked for the names to be longer and descriptive and this is what Buaidh has come back with. This is real progress. I think we could safely remove "Table of" - my suggestions based on Buaidh's are listed above — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@MSGJ: Heh! I hope you're just giving me a hard time. You had suggested a prefix of "Userbox list", whereas Buaidh has "Table of userbox templates" above. I think we want to find a happy medium between meaningless and overly long. — voidxor 21:08, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Voidxor, MSGJ, and Andrybak: "Userbox table" or "Userbox list" instead of "Table of userbox templates" works for me. I've created a proposed documentation page at User:Buaidh/Userbox table entry. Thanks, Buaidh talk e-mail 08:14, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any preference between "table" and "list". I guess the former is more accurate? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A third option would be "gallery". So, {{Userbox gallery}}, much like {{Gallery}}. The obvious difference is that, in an image gallery, each image only needs a parameter or two in the transclusion, whereas the yy templates require a separate transclusion for each userbox (and thus more syntax). — voidxor 17:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We normally use the term "userbox gallery" for a collection of userbox tables such as those userbox galleries shown in Wikipedia:Userboxes/Galleries. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 20:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buaidh: Please don't create any more pages. Once we come to a consensus, Template:Yy/doc and all other pages will be moved and updated. This is how moves are supposed to work, as opposed to what I meant by "cut-and-paste move". — voidxor 17:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, let's use "bottom" as discussed above. I still haven't heard a reason why "end" is a better name for it. — voidxor 17:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because now "top" has been replaced with "start" :) That also works — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. — voidxor 19:25, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I can understand dropping the Yy, but for the rest, please no.
First, the common abbreviation is UBX, so just change "Yy" to "UBX " (or "UBX table "). QED.

Second, I see no need to move away from - the very commonly used in templates - top and bottom. - jc37 00:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree on both points. This exactly echos where I was coming from in the first place. The "Yy" series was designed to supersede {{Usbk}} and its ilk. "Usb" is another abbreviation for "userbox" (though, not a great one), and I've never figured out where the "k" came from. — voidxor 20:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never intended the for Yy templates to replace the Usbk templates. I believe the name "Usbk" was intended to stand for "userbox table". An "x" was not used to avoid confusion with User:UBX in the User namespace. Buaidh talk e-mail 22:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "k" in "userbox table". — voidxor 23:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. The "k" was used in place of "x" for the reason I stated. Buaidh talk e-mail 23:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note:User:UBX is reserved for userbox templates, not templates that create userbox tables. These templates must remain in the Template namespace rather than the User namespace. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 22:30, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You continue to confuse everybody. Nobody is proposing that the Yy templates be moved to user space. Jc37 merely suggested that Template:Yy be moved to Template:UBX or similar. — voidxor 23:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Template:UBX is already being used, as is Template:Ubx. Buaidh talk e-mail 23:29, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UBX table

Ok, let's just go for simple.

What does everyone think about the above? - jc37 04:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Userbox" is so much clearer than "UBX" — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'm flexible, so long as it means something (more than "Yy") and isn't too terribly lengthy. I only wonder if {{Userbox table userbox}} would then be a little redundant. — voidxor 17:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind either way, however, I think we know there will be shorter redirects if we use "userbox" instead of "ubx", so, I'm kinda meh. lol

As for: UBX table userbox. I was just following the theme of what was being displayed and/or linked to. And that's what that template does, as opposed to portal, or noticeboard, etc. Better ideas always welcome : ) - jc37 17:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And if anybody else is having second thoughts about the word "table", then "Userbox preview" and "Userbox example" are two more options that I just thought of. Or even "Preview userbox". — voidxor 17:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about "entry", and "display", as well. But in the end these are part of a table, might as well stay concrete and call it that. - jc37 17:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While we all know that these templates are implemented using a wikitable, is that fact important to end users? That's why I'm having second thoughts about "table" versus something like "preview", "example", "entry", or "display" that abstracts from the implementational details and focuses on the use case instead. Just food for thought.

And I totally agree that shorter redirects will likely dominate when it comes to transclusions. — voidxor 15:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that most of them (except top and bottom) are table dependent. The templates don't work when just placed on a page on their own. So we kinda need to make that clear in the name, I think. Which is why I stayed with "table". I almost went with "table entry"/"table display" for those, but decided against it, for length reasons.

I think this is about as short as we can get and still be somewhat clear in usage in the name, without further abbreviation. - jc37 17:45, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus move

DUPLICATE DISCUSSION

Duplicate of § Full names above. The naming convention is still very much under discussion there. — voidxor 23:01, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Voidxor, MSGJ, and Andrybak: I've posted a request for a consensus move at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Userboxes#Proposed move for Yy templates. You may wish to comment. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 20:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And I've hatted that. It can be treated as a notice to come here to discuss, rather than fragment the discussion. - jc37 00:59, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 22 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– In the interest of continuing our above discussions, I would like to formally propose the Yy series of templates be moved to full names that are more self-explanatory. While the "Yy" names were originally created to be as short as possible, those names are ultimately meaningless. Since then, the Yy templates have evolved to become the preferred way to preview userboxes, and are now transcluded thousands of times across the userbox galleries. We would like to move to meaningful names, and to follow existing template naming conventions (such as "top" and "bottom") where possible.

For anybody concerned that these names may be too verbose, the creation of aliases (a.k.a. shortcuts, redirects) is something that we can address later. However, I think the templates themselves should reside at meaningful names.

Also note that—as with all template moves—redirects will be left behind at the old names, so this will not "break" existing transclusions.

Pinging previous participants: @Buaidh, Jc37, MSGJ, and Andrybak: — voidxor 18:39, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: had to bypass the Yyreg redirect and alter the proposal to Template:Yytabcities → Template:Userbox table regional link. Redirects are ineligible to be current titles in move requests. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 00:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support all - can't believe this discussion is still going on! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! The discussion converged on a proposed solution and then—I think—we all forgot about it. — voidxor 18:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but keep the yy templates as a redirect, if possible. -- KomradeKalashnikov (talk) 23:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. I have personally wondered about Yy's strange name in the past. 〜 Festucalex • talk 05:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support for clarity and disambiguation reasons. SWinxy (talk) 04:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.