Please do not edit this page.

Laurence Olivier

I've secured semi-protection of this page for ten days because of copyvio posting. Their latest effort is a huge chunk from the WP article on Vivien Leigh, which needs to be cut back severely. If you haven't the time for another look, I'll give it a try. Given your earlier edits, you would probably do the better job! --Old Moonraker 15:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

SLR chronology

Hello Hoary: I'm glad that liked my chronology; I've literally spent decades accumulating all of that info and I used some of it to write several individual SLR articles for Wikipedia. I'm happy that at least one other person finds it all interesting too. If you want to "swipe" it, please feel free. I've noticed Camerapedia.org before, but I haven't dug deeply. Maybe I'll try it. Paul1513 20:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Howdy!

Long time no see! hope all is well - I'm back from vacation and my books are unpacked, heh. I've made the fixes that I could at She Shoulda Said No, and I did a rather massive revamping of Mom and Dad last month to try and minimize the identicalness of that and Krog. I think we're close...care to work any further or have I burned you out? --badlydrawnjeff talk 01:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm just burned out, sorry. But maybe I'll take a look later. -- Hoary 02:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

no problem, understandible. Seems like you've been through the wringer, too. Anything I can help with, or are you just on a bit of a break? --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Success brings repeat business

Someone outside the Scouting project nom'd Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America) for FAC. We knew it wasn't ready but let it run, figuring it's a good way for input. It did improve a lot, but the writing was not up to snuff and that part still needs work. Since you did so well at the last article you copyedited for us, could you look at it for us? You're better than we are at this. I've listed it at Wikipedia:WikiProject_League_of_Copyeditors/proofreading#Requests_for_copy-editing_assistance. Rlevse 12:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but really I think that scouting is one of my blind spots. I have a lot of them: manga, anime, starwarstrek, dungeons, dragons, religion, dogs, spicy girls, sports, heraldry, and many besides; please don't take it personally. I wish you all the best with the article. -- Hoary 14:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, just asking.Rlevse 14:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Re:Invasion of the birdbrains

That would be great. Thanks. --Ann Stouter 08:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! --Ann Stouter 08:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Brian Wood (rugby player)

I don't think an article is justified, the protocols require a player to have played one pro game to be notable. He doesn't seem to have done that or coached at a pro level either.GordyB 10:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. But if you think an article's not justified, you don't have to do anything: it will disappear unless anyone protests. -- Hoary 13:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Onefortyone and Nick Adams

141 is on a roll; see the titillating state of the article Nick Adams, its history from late April (not helped by 141's chronic aversion to edit summaries), and Talk:Nick Adams, in which the fearless shedder of light in the darkest places expostulates: Do you really think that this material isn't encyclopedic? The private life and personal relationships are certainly important parts of a celebrity's history and must therefore be included in a biography etc etc. -- Hoary 05:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

*sigh* Yes, he's up to his usual insertion of Elvis homosexuality factoids again, with the funny collages of references to appear to make it tenable. I'm not quite sure what to do, because I have advised him on many occasions to moderate his behaviour; but it seems his tenacity is unmatchable, and thus I fear I shall have to implement greater stricture on him. I am considering invoking the ArbCom remedy, stating that the ban will apply to all Elvis-related articles. If he subsequently keeps at it, I am assuming he can be blocked for ignoring the ArbCom ruling. I am sorry that my efforts to mentor him appear not to have led to a satisfactory conclusion. (p.s. I am not going to edit the article as it stands, as that could possibly be construed as a conflict-of-interest should I invoke the remedy.) All the best, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Tell me if this fits the bill adequately. Cheers, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Gabriel Fahrenheit

(You wrote)
Hello. I've written a further comment about Gabriel Fahrenheit at User talk:Chimichunga333; please take a look at it. -- Hoary 23:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read my reply at Chimichunga333. I'd like to go along with your final decission in this matter. I trust your judgement and have no personal attachment to the insert. --Poeticbent talk 03:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for trusting my judgment rather more than I do. I've tentatively reverted the whole addition -- not just the bit attributed to Giunta but the whole lot. See the article's discussion page. I hope the editor explains, whereupon something can be done with the addition. I'm sorry that you may have wasted your time in working on it. -- Hoary 03:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hiroh Kikai

(You wrote)

On 26 October, 2006, Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board was updated with a question about the article Hiroh Kikai, which [Hoary] created and substantially expanded. If you, Poeticbent, can help with the small Polish-language element within that article, please do so wherever seems most appropriate.

--

Hoary 03:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you know...

...that I once asked a question about Polish here but nobody answered it, even though I asked it ever so politely?

I love how you composed your question (above) in Wiki language. We do need a sense of humor around here, that’s for sure :-). The essay you asked about [1] was written by Marta Newelska for the online journal called “Japonica Creativa” which belongs to the student forum of the University of Adam Mickiewicz in Poznań, department of Neophilology Japanese graduate studies program.[2] The article written by Newelska talks about the exhibit of work by Hiroh Kikai entitled “Persona” and presented at the Gallery Zamek (the Castle) in Poznań from February 7 to March 3, 2005. The introduction to the show was written by dr Wiesław Rządek, who explained that the photographs on display were taken at Sensoji temple in a somewhat rundown neighborhood of Asakusa in Tokyo over the course of a decade, where Kikai lived for 30 years.
The second reference [3] talks about an opening of a second show of Hiroh Kikai's work by the same title and in the same city of Poznań simultaneously at the Gallery PF, on February 8, 2005. On display were the series of photographs of pilgrims against the walls of Sensoji temple, taken on the same street of Asakusa district over the course of 30 years. In a way, it was also a retrospective of Kikai’s work. – Please don’t hesitate to ask if there’s anything else I can do and sorry for having to wait for so long. --Poeticbent talk 05:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh, and it was all done in order that the result would blend in with your page . . Oh well, that doesn't matter at all, because I actually got the info that I was hoping for. I'm now so happy in a Polish kind of way that I'm in a mood to load up my Ami 66 with a roll of Fuji Presto and go out and capture the world. (Oh, no, hang on: There's still a roll in my Mine. So maybe next week.) Thank you thank you! -- Hoary 07:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I love your sense of humor, and I love your reference to Ami 66 ”in a Polish kind of way”. You’re pulling my leg, right? Actually, your template blended in with my Talk page so well the illusion was almost scary. What if everybody wants to talk like this? You wouldn’t like that, would you? I’ll be happy to help you with anything Polish (or not) if needed. And please, do take care. --Poeticbent talk 08:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I pull your leg not: I have an Ami 66 lying within two metres of where I now type, and it seems to scream "Feed me! Feed me!" With film, that is; not the other stuff. ¶ What if everybody wants to talk like this? Well, er, I wasn't expecting the Kantian Inquisition. What can I say. ¶ I’ll be happy to help you with anything Polish (or not) if needed. Now ya talking. I was about to invite you to look through Category:Polish photographers but then it occurred to me that I should first do so myself. So I did (just now, in a bit of a rush), and while I found three or four good articles and a couple of poor articles on people who seemed to deserve better ones, I also saw some pretty screwy stuff. Barbara Anna Czartoryska, for example, looks like simple vanity (I prodded it), but Andrzej Łuczak and the like seem little better. You might look through the lot if this subject interests you at all (as it should!). -- Hoary 08:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC) ..... PS more concretely, there are also inscrutable (to me) Polish-language external links from Kęstutis Stoškus; any explanation for any of these would be most welcome too. -- Hoary 10:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Katerina Jebb

The author's response does look like he/she was WP:BITtEn. The option to remove as G7 is definitely there, but perhaps some words of clarification/explanation on the author's talkpage to explain your intentions and looking how to head on from there might be a better step to take. If his/her response is that he/she still for deletion, then just respect his/her wishes. - Best regards, Mailer Diablo 12:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

= Admin

Hi Hoary! I would like to nominate you for adminship, is it ok for you? Snowolf ^(talk) _CON ^COI - 14:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well . . . ah . . . I hardly know what to say, erm . . . let me sleep on that. -- Hoary 15:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I second the nomination.;~) Pinkville 16:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah . . . [4] :o) - Mailer Diablo 17:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Very strange: I'm sure I've checked... I must have done an error while checking. Never mind and happy editing, Snowolf ^(talk) _CON ^COI - 17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

MD, thanks for reminding me. When Snowolf kindly made the original suggestion, it had an odd sound to it, almost a kind of familiarity. I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was; now I know. Snowolf; thank you for the suggestion, and I'm happy for you that your (most unexpected) dream has already come true. -- Hoary 22:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You come across as too sane to have the bit, don'tcha see? d:-) --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

On reflection, I think it's very simple: People (including myself) don't notice I'm wielding the mop because I don't fling it around enough. All I need to do is delete a lot more articles and block a lot more users. Then nobody will think I'm slacking. -- Hoary 23:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hehehe! How about destroying admin backlogs for a start? =D - Mailer Diablo 11:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

What, me worry? Oh, all right.

[pause to look at that page]

Jeez, what a mess. I looked at requests for unblocking. I read a few which could be summarized as "OK, OK, I admit it: I behaved like a dickhead. But I'm a nice guy. Promise!" None looked credible; I wanted to say "Uh huh. So prove it then. Name an article, any artice, to which you want to make a substantial, intelligent, verifiable (well sourced) addition; and make that addition right here on your own talk page. If I agree that it's good, I'll unblock you. However, I'll keep looking at your contributions list: if I see anything tacky, I'll block you for twice as long as you're blocked now and I'll make sure you stay blocked. Got that?" But I had a hunch that would contravene all sorts of policies that I can't be bothered to read. So instead I actually unblocked somebody (breaking a rule by not consulting with the admin who'd blocked him). Whew, that was thrilling! One chore done, only sixty two zillion more to do. -- Hoary 14:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

re User:Man in a skirt

No, fine. I probably shouldn't have blocked him in the first place, I guess. Herostratus 14:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Elvis Presley and other things

Hello. I was wondering if you were still editing the Elvis page? Has a checkuser ever been done on 141 (onefortone) before per the anonymous users who keep posting ridiculous remarks over the course of the last year and more as possible sockpuppets? Further, I'd welcome any input on improvements there after my revision of format. Thanks. --Northmeister 17:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only do I not edit it, I try not even to look at it. But [groan] I'll force myself to look at it some time soon, and I'll get back to you then. -- Hoary 00:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at this page. I actually welcome any constructive criticism, as my only intent is to keep it wiki-encyclopedic and good enough to be labled a 'good article' and then be a 'featured article'. As to your other comment - didn't realize my talk page did that. I am unsure of how to read the link you gave me. When you have the time, could you help me out with what is causing loading problems so that I may fix them - thanks? Lastly, I still think a checkuser on the anonymous accounts compared with onefortyones would be helpful. PS. I actually looked at the Russian and Portuguese versions of wikipedia per the Elvis page and they have both been featured articles. I am using them as something of a guide as well as other featured articles for length and substance. --Northmeister 16:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Shall do, but probably not today. If I later seem to have forgotten all about it, do please prod me. -- Hoary 01:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Right then. If you change

*[[/Archive22904|FILE22904]]: May 2006-June 2006
|}
{| width="100%" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="12"
style="background-color:#f8fcff; border-style:none; border-color:#b2a4c5;" |align="center" width="100%" style="border-style:solid; border-width:6; border-color:#4F69C6;
background-color:#6B3FA0;
color:#F8F4FF;"|'''"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not

to

*[[/Archive22904|FILE22904]]: May 2006-June 2006
|}
<div style="clear:both"> </div>
{| width="100%" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="12"
style="background-color:#f8fcff; border-style:none; border-color:#b2a4c5;" |align="center" width="100%" style="border-style:solid; border-width:6; border-color:#4F69C6;
background-color:#6B3FA0;
color:#F8F4FF;"|'''"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not

the result will be completely readable in Konqueror as well as Mozilla. Or to put it another way, the chunk you would profitably add is:

I hope this helps. -- Hoary 05:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Just implemented your suggestion. --Northmeister 05:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which

Would you care to proofread? [5] --Poeticbent talk 17:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this. You asked in hidden Comment: "How did the "Lomography" racket push the camera to legendary status?" Please take a look at this ad [6] on Polish e-bay (English language description at bottom). That's what I was referring to. Perhaps you could improve on that paragraph somehow to make it sound more in line with what is being said about Ami 66 by other collectors. --Poeticbent talk 02:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at it, and all I see is a mention of Lomo or Lomography (I forget which).

I presume that the popularity of the Ami increased with that of the Diana, Holga, etc. But these increases in popularity (or fashions, or fads) predated Lomography's involvement. (Yes, Lomography now sells predictably overpriced Holgas, but this is a newish development.)

What interests me more is the name. Would it have reminded the literate Pole (and if I remember right, French was widely known in Poland at that time) of the French word ami, or does it have an additional meaning in Polish? -- Hoary 03:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You’re right about the French connection. The Ami name must have been derived from the French since there isn’t a single word like that in Polish. My big dictionary of the Polish language by PWN does not provide any references to “ami”. However I don’t live in Poland and know little about the renewed popularity of the camera. Please use your gut feeling whenever in doubt. I’m not well versed in photo equipment either. --Poeticbent talk 03:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ivailo Djourov

Thank you. Well explained for the contributor, by the way. --Butseriouslyfolks 01:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Barbèy

Hi Hoary - I started up the Thomas Barbèy page - I have no connection to the photographer at all (except that I like his work). I noticed that you had proposed the page for deletion on the basis that there were no self interested links. I had one link to an interview with the artist in 'Inked' which I thought helped establish significance - the whole article is viewable on the artist's own web page which is why it links there. Also, I just added a link to an article in Art Business News where Barbey is quoted. I will see if I can find more. Let me know if you think this might be sufficient to remove the delete request? Many thanks for your input! Merteuil 16:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, no disinterested links.

This message of yours above implies that you think the PROD notice should be removed, and simply because of this objection (and regardless of the merit of the objection), I've removed it. (You were free to do this yourself, without consultation with me or anyone else. It's a contrast with an "AfD" notice, which you can't remove. Confusing, isn't it?) Right now I'm in a rush and am therefore deliberately ignoring your reasoning above. But I'll look at the article and the sources within 24 hours, and respond then. (If I fail to do so, please nudge me.) -- Hoary 01:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Hoary! I am still quite new to Wikipedia so any help/advice is appreciated! That is also why I was hesitant to remove the proposed delete. I will see if I can find some more disinterested articles too, in order to boost the validity of including the artist as an entry. Merteuil 03:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Japanese name debate

Regarding Koichi Yamadera, the definition of "behalf" is, according to Merriam-Webster: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/behalf

"A body of opinion favors in with the “interest, benefit” sense of behalf and on with the “support, defense” sense. This distinction has been observed by some writers but overall has never had a sound basis in actual usage. In current British use, on behalf (of) has replaced in behalf (of); both are still used in American English, but the distinction is frequently not observed." - Koichi Yamadera doesn't have to explicitly say "this is how I romanize my name" - The companies, which represent him, do the job for him. WhisperToMe 22:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thinks: "Um?" Ah, perhaps it's a point raised by User:DivineLady that you're addressing here. (I merely commented on a separate small point she raised.) -- Hoary 01:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Josef Jindřich Šechtl

Thank you for all the work on the page! Actually tomorrow I am leaving for a week to Austin, so I won't be able to look up more facts (but I will be able to do simple edits). Hopefully we are getting closer... --Honza 11:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the information. It is appreciated.Intheminors 16:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Kikai persona1.jpg

Hello, Hoary. An automated process has found and removed an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that was in your userspace. The image (Image:Kikai persona1.jpg) was found at the following location: User talk:Hoary. This image or media was attempted to be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media was replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 16:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Minamata Chisso Industrial Waste.jpg

Hello, Hoary. An automated process has found and will an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that is in your userspace. The image (Image:Minamata Chisso Industrial Waste.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Hoary/Archive07. This image or media will be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. This does not necessarily mean that the image is being deleted, or that the image is being removed from other pages. It is only being removed from the page mentioned above. All mainspace instances of this image will not be affected Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 22:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Minamata Chisso Industrial Waste.jpg

Hello Hoary, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:Minamata Chisso Industrial Waste.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Hoary/Archive07. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Please note that it is possible that the image on your page is included vie a template or usebox. In that case, please find a free image for the template or userbox. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 13:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Seth Sabal

Good day, Hoary! I recently added a photographer to the fashion section of the photographers articles only to find it deleted. I do not understand why it was deleted. I am the new editor of "Indusrty Tree" a brand new fashion resource guide to the best in"New York Fashion Scene". Including Art Directors, Makeup Artist, Photographers, Stylist... etc. I am planning on adding the top 50 photographers, makeup artists and stylist. This is based on three significant results; Financial Earnings, Current Publications and Contributions, Longevity. Its based solely on the results, not personal feelings or favorites. The Industry Tree webpage will be launching in late August 2007.

The photographers that I will be adding to the Wiki Fashion Section are: Kevin Sinclair, Mark Wimberly & Radek Grossman, Seth Sabal, & Alan Forman. These are the photographers that the top agents and magazines suggested as the new upcoming generation of top photographers, from our questionnaire. My experience as a photo editor at Marie Claire magazine also clearly qualifies me to make that judgement. They are also listed in the Daily (Hearst Publication) as the "Top Newcomers to Fashion."

I strongly agree with you that poorly written, non confirmable content should be deleated instantly. This is NOT the case with the photographers that I am looking to add. I am very interested in working with you on the quality editing of this section! There are in fact people that should not be listed and would love to work with you on fixing that. Please get back to me via my talk page so we can resolve this issue immediatly. Thank you!

.... added at 13:51, 20 May 2007 by User:Industrytree (contributions)

Thank you for the note, which I took to refer to Seth Sabal.

An earlier article on Sabal was deleted in late October. You can see the (my) nomination for deletion, the ensuing discussion, and the "delete" conclusion, in the relevant "AfD".

If an article deleted via AfD is re-created, that re-creation can be instantly deleted. I noticed its re-creation, I deleted it.

I now realize that it was not a re-creation. Instead, it's a new article on the same person. This means its re-creation is not automatically a problem. I may have been wrong to delete it.

Well, here it is:

Seth Sabal is a American born fashion photographer based in New York City. He was born and raised in Douglas, Arizona . His images have been published in International versions of Vogue, and Harper's Bazaar. His clients include Apple, Louis Vuitton, Dean & Deluca, Proctor & Gamble.

==External links==

Official website

(I've commented out material that wouldn't be appropriate in a user talk page.)

There are some fairly big claims here, but still no evidence presented for them. Sabal's own website isn't evidence. Your self-description and stated confidence in Sabal's eminence don't constitute authority. (There's nothing personal about you in this: Wikipedia doesn't take material on any editor's say-so: Rather, the editor has to cite credible sources.)

I'll comment more closely on one thing you say: that Sabal and four others

are the photographers that the top agents and magazines suggested as the new upcoming generation of top photographers, from our questionnaire.

The results of the questionnaire would have to be published by some disinterested party for this to be persuasive.
If they really are upcoming, well, wait a little and let them come up. When they've come up, press coverage, etc. will be plentiful and it will be easy to cite this in articles.

I hope you understand, and I wish you well with "Industry Tree". -- Hoary 14:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification; I am actually happy that someone is kind enough to edit the through the self-promotional information on Wiki; I will be sure to contact you in the near future when I have the cited sources and documented info for the artists that should be relevant to the fashion photographer section. I will not be adding anyone without your input; your professionalism is knowlege of this system is wonderful. We will be in contact. Thank you again!

I have a quick question, maybe you can help me. How do you suggest I create articles about photographers, makeup artists and stylist that impact the industy tremendously but are not necessarily household names yet. Being the photo editor of a major publication puts me in contact with these artists all the time but I cannot seem to find the NYT or the Post writing articles about them. Do you suggest that I wait for these articals or just site the smaller publications and websites posting this information?

... posted at 17:08, 20 May 2007 by Industrytree

I'm glad that you're taking my comments as I'd hoped.

Unfortunately I know nothing whatever about makeup artists and stylists; you might ask about them at WP Fashion.

As for photographers, I can easily imagine that the NYT and WP largely limit their attention to (1) a couple of dozen stars (Erwitt, Leibovitz, Salgado, etc), plus (2) people more famous for other stuff (miscellaneous rock stars, Leonard Nimoy) and (3) the occasional person who's managed to get their "transgressive" works to attract the attention and indignation of Jesse Helms or whoever has inherited Helms's position as Bluenose General. Quite rightly, WP covers a lot of other people. Recently I've been concentrating on Japanese photographers (Kensuke Kazama, Seiji Kurata, etc), none of whom are photographic stars/celebs (Araki, Hiromix, Kawauchi, Nagashima, Moriyama, Ninagawa, Shinoyama) as the work of the latter is of little or no interest to me. "My" photographers are very definitely not household names in Japan, but even so they are sometimes covered by Japan's national broadsheets; e.g. Kazama contributed a substantial article to Nihon Keizai Shinbun (Japan's answer to the WSJ) a few years ago and although this was written by him the fact that it was published by NKS would make it an acceptable source.

It's perfectly OK to cite regional newspapers, mass-market (if not merely gossipy) magazines, trade magazines, and credible websites. But please avoid message-forum chatter (even if hosted by respected websites) and blogs.

Camera and photographic magazines are of course fueled by advertising, and as retail advertising (and retailing itself) move to the web the magazine publishers feel the crunch. But I presume that the US still has camera/photographic magazines and that these present and comment on fashion as well as documentary and self-consciously "art" photography. There are also regional newspapers, fashion trade magazines, and so forth.

Fashion photographers in Japan also typically find time to work on their own projects -- sometimes related to fashion, sometimes not -- and to have these shown in magazines, exhibited in galleries, or both. Perhaps you have something similar in the US. -- Hoary 23:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Robert Benchley

Hey there! Dunno if you're still burned out, but I've pretty much rewritten Robert Benchley from scratch and I'm looking for some input. If you can, I'd love to hear it, I've opened a peer review as well. Hope all is well. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll get to it, but slowly. -- Hoary 10:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for everything and anything. How's tricks? --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Haven't turned any recently, Jeff. How's it hanging? -- Hoary 14:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: Invasion of the birdbrains, Part 2

I've been without internet access for the past few days, so I didn't read your message until just now. Thanks again, anyway, and sorry for the delay. --Ann Stouter 20:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

single-lens reflex camera chronology

Dear Hoary: Thanks for your encouragement last month to continue work on the SLR chronology. However, I think I'm done now, because it's as good as it will get if I am the only one contributing it. As the maxim goes: you can't be your own editor, because you're blind to your own mistakes. I've managed to catch several mistakes since my first posting, but I really need an independent editor to proofread now and tell me what I've forgotten to do. (A Russo-phile has already added a couple of Zenit entries and corrected my Cyrillic transcriptions.) I've also expended an enormous amount of mental effort over the last two months getting the chronology together, and I'm exhausted and out of coherent things to say. So, I invite you, and anyone else you might know, to continue improving it.

In addition, the chronology is becoming very long. I had thought to make a simple timeline of maybe 20 innovative SLRs, with a one or two sentence blurb per entry. If I continue to add to the chronology, it will become a full blown history and Wikipedia already has an SLR history article, flawed though it may be. (It focuses on the post-WW2 35 mm SLR; emphasizes electronic conveniences not specific to the SLR; is Japan-centric, treating the Japanese 35 mm SLR as a teleological inevitability, instead of the long-running and close-fought battle between many formats it really was; and overall, ignores what "single-lens" and "reflex" really means.)

About the Zunow SLR: Production was slower than expected, and there's at least one disastrous design flaw: I've seen a photo of a seriously chewed up gear cog, obviously made of far too soft an alloy. I do not wish in any way to give you the false impression that I'm a Zunow expert, or even a professional photographic historian in general; any more that I would claim to be a professional photographer. I wrote the chronology because my amateur photographer's passion for SLRs coincided with Wikipedia's inadequate SLR history. If you are confident that the Zunow SLR was doomed by design flaws, please correct the chronology.

However, I believe that Zunow was a case of a small company with a good idea, squashed by a bigger corporation with deeper pockets. Any production delays or weak gearing could have been fixed through product improvement analysis, on an "as returned" or recalled basis for units in circulation, or in an corrected version on a reworked production line. Even the Nikon F had big and small internal changes the first few years. If the Zunow SLR had very serious mechanical failures that ruined its reputation, even this is not irrecoverable if Zunow could come up with a "Zunow SLR2." The Canonflex was originally blown away by the Nikon F (like everyone else), but Canon had the wherewithal to keep plugging away for thirty years before gaining ascendancy. Both were apparently beyond Zunow's resources.

Perhaps we could try: "Reliability problems with the camera and weak corporate finances meant that Zunow was unable to capitalize on its design."

About Let me instead invite you to this place (http://camerapedia.org/wiki/Main_Page). I've looked it over and I'm a bit intimidated by it. Some of Camerapedia's posters appear to be hard-core collectors and I don't think I want to compete with their level of obsessive detail. Thanks Muchly Paul1513 20:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Do you know what was the first SLR with a flash hot shoe? I know the first hot shoe camera of any kind came out in 1938. I also know the hot shoe became a 35 mm SLR standard feature around 1973, but I don't know the first SLR with one. Apparently, the humble hot shoe is so ubiquitous today that nobody notices it. This precisely why I think it deserves to be in the chronology. Paul1513 20:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Well done!

I'm a bit knackered (and hungry) right now, so just one brief comment. Obviously 135 film was tremendously important for SLRs. However, it was just as important for RF cameras. There's a lot about it in the chronology, most of which should I think go in the article on 135 film.

More later. -- Hoary 10:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You're still here!

I went as far as checking your contributions list to see that you hadn't flown the coop. No sign of you in the FAC and FAR/C rooms! Your email bounces. Has it changed? Tony 07:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, kind of. The registered address works more often than not. I'd like to change it to an address that works consistently, but there are problems. (If your browser doesn't jump to the right place, choose no. 72 within the list of contents.) I very recently piped up in a FA review, and (unless of course you actually appreciate "infoboxes") did so to good effect, it seems. -- Hoary 09:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Ivailo Djourov

I request that you undelete Ivailo Djourov. I think your deletion wasn't correct because of the GFDL notice. And, although the GFDL license isn't specifically stated on the HTML page http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/Artists/cvdjourov.htm , that page can be navigated to from the top page of the site where then the menu with the GFDL license statement remains by going to http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/ and then clicking "Singers" and then clicking the "Ivaylo Djourov" at the bottom of the page where the text of the above page will then be shown, with the GFDL license. Further, the user has written into OTRS stating that this GFDL license statement on the website should be sufficient (and I agree) for the inclusion of the text to be used (notability aside). You can reference OTRS at https://secure.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=877791 if you wish to restore the article with that justification, but I don't think it's needed in the first place. If you are unwilling to restore the article for any reason, please let me know (and why) and I can pursue other avenues to restore the article. Thank you for your time. MECU≈talk 16:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I must admit that OTRS is a new abbreviation for me. I clicked the link, got various SSL-related warnings from my browser, ignored those, and eventually was asked for my user ID and password; I have neither, and therefore stopped at that point.

I've little doubt that the creator of that website intends to release it under GFDL. But that's not what he or she actually says. The frame www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/menu.htm says Re-use of the text of this web page is permitted under the GFDL (my emphasis). And when I follow your suggested sequence -- going to http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/ and then clicking "Singers" and then clicking the "Ivaylo Djourov" at the bottom of the page -- and moreover do so not using Lynx, Amaya, etc, but instead a conventional graphic browser (Konqueror, as it happens) that has not been configured to zap frames, then what you describe simply does not occur. Although you say the text of the above page will then be shown, with the GFDL license, the process instead leads me to www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/Artists/cvdjourov.htm, without www.geocities.com/Vienna/4445/menu.htm or any mention of GFDL (but with some Yahoo advertising junk).

I've just now repeated the same process using Mozilla instead of Konqueror: Same result, same non-mention of GFDL.

I suggest that somebody interested should contact the site and have its owner change "web page" to "website". (IANaL, but maybe the pernickety would point out that the site includes ~~junk~~ material from Yahoo/Geocities that may not be released as GFDL: the sitemeister should perhaps say something like: Re-use of the text of this website (except for material inserted by Yahoo/Geocities) is permitted under the GFDL.) -- Hoary 02:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I used firefox and the menu stays when I do it. I'm not sure what else to say on how/why the menu doesn't stay for you. I also have ad-blockers installed so I don't see the geocities junk you saw, which I'm sure exists. To learn about OTRS and what it means for Wikipedia, see this (I should have linked this before, I apologize). You don't have access because you have to specifically request access at meta and be granted it by the OTRS folks. You are already qualified being an admin. It took me 4 months to get access (from time of request to granting) so if you request access, don't expect anything immediate. And worse, I cannot divulge the contents of the E-mail because of the confidentiality requirement as well. And still worse, I'm not an admin here on Wikipedia (yet) so I can't restore it myself. Thus, in acting as a proxy in essence, I asked you to restore. Sometimes, OTRS folks do things where they solely justify their action with a link to OTRS (as the one you followed above). But asking someone like you to do something without OTRS with OTRS justification is a leap of faith on your part.

Anyways, I still think the website's claims are sufficient in a release of the page/site into the GFDL. Your claim of the difference between site/page I think isn't important, nor is the detail to state the text is available while the material inserted by Yahoo is under their copyright. The latter seems obvious and requiring a statement as such is ridiculous. I would equate it to requiring a statement that "your connection and viewing of this website is dependent on your browser and computer settings and configuration." --- well, duh.

I apologize if anything is slightly offensive or less courteous then you would expect, I did not mean for it to come out that way if it did. I don't think there's much more I could argue on this matter, so if you're still unwilling to restore, I will have to pursue other means. (Not meant as a threat, just saying I've got nothing else.) Thanks for your consideration. MECU≈talk 12:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

First off: I apologize if anything is slightly offensive or less courteous then you would expect -- No of course it isn't. Let's be direct: it saves a lot of time, at least if the other party isn't thin-skinned (and I'm not).

In L1 English, I think there's a clear distinction between a "page" on the one hand and a "site" on the other. Yes, it's very likely that when the sitemaster says "page" he means "site" -- but what he says is "page". And even if by "page" he doesn't mean "site", it's very likely that he means "what's in your browser window" -- which for you includes the frame on Ivailo Djourov (even though for me it does not).

Couldn't User:Thracia simply email the sitemaster and get him to change "page" to "web"?

At this point, I'm not going to undelete. OtOH I'm not going to oppose undeletion, I rather hope that the stuff is undeleted, and I have an idea that may avoid yet another tiresome "Remember: this is not a vote! It's a discussion" vote. (Namely, I'm going to ask another admin to take a look. He's used to these irritating requests from me.) Stay tuned. -- Hoary 15:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm on standby until further notice. MECU≈talk 15:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll be happy to take a look at this. Mecu was referencing m:OTRS, which I have access to. Jkelly 16:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)