User talk:Neutralhomer

Comment
/Archive 1 - 07/18/2008 to 11/02/2008
/Archive 2 - 11/02/2008 to 02/16/2009
/Archive 3 - 02/16/2009 to 05/13/2009
/Archive 4 - 05/13/2009 to 08/12/2009
/Archive 5 - 08/12/2009 to 12/24/2009
/Archive 6 - 12/24/2009 to Present

Help Requested

{{helpme}}

Hello, I am needing some help and am not sure which board to go to. I am needing help writing a condensed version of the History of Stephens City, Virginia. I have tried and seriously failed. I am trying to get the Stephens City, Virginia article up to Good Article status. I typically write radio station articles, so town/city history isn't my forté. I tried asking for help at WP:CITIES, but that talk page hasn't seen any edits since March 24th. I requested the help of a couple editors from WP:CITIES, but they didn't do much writing either. Is there anyone who could help on this? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you explain a bit more about what you are trying to do? Is it designed as a replacement for the 'history' section in Stephens City, Virginia? (I'll keep an eye out here for replies)  Chzz  ►  01:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What I am wanting to do is move the section currently under the "History" section on the Stephens City page to History of Stephens City, Virginia and have a little condensed version in its place. I have been told by many that the current larger version wouldn't stand up to a GA look over, so it needs to be moved so others can read the full version or the condensed version (whichever the preference). I just don't know how to break down all the information in the full version into a condensed version. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh and I have more references in the history section on the Stephens City page than I do on the Sandbox page, so anyone, feel free to use those as well. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

If the stuff in the current article isn't very good, there's no point moving it out to another sub-article. Better to just remove the junk, and fix it.

You could have a go at that, maybe, and ask for help in WP:FEED - they're usually good at such things. I don't really know what else to suggest; you could look through to see who has edited the article in the past, maybe see if they around around to help. You could also try more active projects. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Virginia looks active, or even Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History.  Chzz  ►  02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I readded the HelpMe template...I thought you had went to sleep for the night (getting late here on the east coast and even more so in the UK and Europe).

The current hsitory article is VERY good....just really insanely long. What the GA people have said is I need a couple paragraphs per century (Stephens City's history goes back to the 1730's).

I will check WP:FEED, I didn't know there was a WP:History...that will probably be my best bet.

On other editors, to be honest, I would estimate that 80% of the page's edits are mine....so I wouldn't know who to ask who edited the page. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

It being long is only part of the problem though. The GA reviewer will check sources and once they see it's a copy (even allowed with additional sources) that will prevent GA status on top of it being so long. As an editor you have to decide which historical events are most important to help the reader understand the town best. Look at the history section of New York City, which leads to History of New York City. New York is not only older than Stephens City but far larger and more important, yet its history section has been reduced to the most important facts. Even the History of New York City is by no means a comprehensive history of the city. The history website used in Stephens City, Virginia is dedicated to the history of the town, so it's going to go into a lot of details that aren't appropriate for an encylcopedic article about the town or even about it's general history. Remember, Wikipedia isn't an encylcopedia of everything. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

My best advice is become as familiar with what a GA looks like and why as possible so you can do it yourself. I had to do much the same with many of the articles I've edited. Good to ask advice and have others check work, but in the end you have to do the most. Sounds harsh, but I'm here to help where I can. Many of these small town articles only have a one or two (if any) who are really dedicated to them. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem I run into when I write is, well, it isn't very good. Some people can get very wordy and make a history sound great, almost alive. Mine just sounds flat, lifeless and boring. Hence why I need a little nudge in the right direction, some help. Yeah, I can read the Histories of NYC and other places, but I can't make those into some little 'burg in Virginia. Just tough for someone who is used to radio articles :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

<----I hear ya man. The thing about reading other histories is seeing how they are worded and structured. I'll see what I can do in helping you out more in that department. The real key to "interesting" writing is variation in words (vocabulary) and sentence structure (i.e. not starting several sentences in a row with the same word for instance or having several short sentences in a row). I'm willing to bet your radio edits will have more positive effect on your writing than you think! --JonRidinger (talk) 03:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks :) See WKMM for a look at some of my radio work. Some radio articles are shorter than that, but that is one with a little "meat". :) User:Parkwells trimmed a little from the Civil War section of the history and I am actively getting references from the curator of the Newtown History Center (though he is out until Monday). So the more we trim, the less it looks like a copy and the more we have references, the more we can keep in the longer version. :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

That's good. But remember the agreement for the ticket was for -all- of the content as it appeared on the website, so as it stands now it is a copyright violation without permission and should all be removed. That's one of the reasons using a large amount of text from a website like that ends up not working since it will get edited and then will fall out of the original agreement. My recommendation is to just start over from scratch. To me it's better to have no history section for a day or two while it gets fixed than to have one that is a copyright. The problem here is the copyrighted info more than the sources since we don't need to source a published history from a reliable source. Glad you're getting sources from the curator, but do some of your own digging too. Most histories of small towns can be written with just one or two main sources (like written published works) and then you just cite the specific page number. My main city article is Kent, Ohio and I just created History of Kent, Ohio if you want to see some examples of how I cited book pages so it's easier to check!  :) --JonRidinger (talk) 03:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually we are allowed to use any part of it. I have the OTRS ticket (well, most of it, names are redacted) and it allows us to use any part of the history with two stipulations. One, we give Newtown History Center credit in the form of a reference (done) and two, we link to Newtown History Center at the bottom of the page (done before the OTRS ticket was issued, so really done). So we can tinker with this as much as we want, adding in new references as we come about them as long as we are using some form of the original NHC history, we have to credit/reference/link them, which I think is a good trade. Since they used so many books in their history, I am linking to them all, so that whatever we use is as referenced as it can be.

Now, that is not to say some parts of it won't be unreferenced for a few days. This is an ongoing, slow process of referencing. I am sending in the reference by email and the curator is sending them back with references he used from his on-paper footnote version. Sadly, his footnote version never made it to online print, but what you see on the NHC website is the footnote version without the footnotes....we are just adding them. So, as I don't want to rush the guy since he is being gracious enough to do all this, I am letting him go at his pace in responding. So it will take some time (probably two weeks tops) to reference it all. We are going from the top and going paragraph-by-paragraph.

I will check out your newly minted page as soon as I hit save on this post :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Because the majority of the text comes from the website, it having a few sources doesn't mean it's "unreferenced". Adding sources isn't so much the problem here; deciding what is appropriate for this article and drastically reducing the material to make it appropriate for a "History of Stephens City, Virginia" article and more for the Stephens City article is the real challenge. In reality, it's already properly referenced as the one source is a reliable source. Also, another problem is that much of the existing text is still a direct copy, so since we are free to change what we need to, the OTRS ticket isn't really needed; we can reference that site in a citation whenever we want in the history section (or anywhere in the article) without permission; we can't just copy their work here (which we shouldn't anyway). Even with permission, having great amounts of copied work (i.e. where text is cut-and-pasted verbatim or very close to verbatim) from other websites will prevent this article from ever getting GA status. All GAs have text that is not only appropriate for an encyclopedic article, but is sourced with reliable sources and is original to the article (written by Wikipedia editors). --JonRidinger (talk) 03:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I started a history section at User:JonRidinger/history, mostly for my own sake to organize from the ground up. I tend to write it first, then go through and add the sources. Generally, unless the fact is highly controversial or challengeable, only one reference is needed, so it's good to vary where each citation is placed and how often a particular refence is used. Because I don't have access to the printed sources, I will have to assume they are placed near the facts they are sourcing and you will have to check to make sure not only are they in the correct place in the text but that the reference fully supports what I wrote. --JonRidinger (talk) 06:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Parkwells, I believe, was going to do the same thing. So, perhaps you could talk with him and see what he is going to do and work with him, so we don't have two versions of something.

On the Veterans section, as the town is rural and centered in the thought of country, I really think this section should be there. With the note that two people served in WWII, Korean, and Vietnam, I think that is something that we should have one the page. I am a little biased, my Dad is a Peace-Time Vet, but I think it should be kept.

I got church here in 15mins, so I will be AFW til 1pm EST, so we can pick this up when I get back. Take Care and Happy Easter...NeutralHomer • Talk • 13:16, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I am back from church, so we can discuss anything on the article. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 17:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

<----Remember, you have to think as a Wikipedia editor, not as a Stephens City resident or as a relative of a Veteran (both of my Grandpas are also Vets). That's the benefit of having people outside the town who are familiar with Wikipedia policies look over and edit the article. Every town and city has veterans. There are no examples of similar sections in other good and featured articles and it really does little to help the reader understand the town other than a little demographic note. When a special section is justified, it is usually because of a notable and outstanding difference the city has (one example is the Louisville, Kentucky article having a section on the pronunciation of the city's name). If anything about Veterans is mentioned, it would be in the Demographics section, but even then it is not a significant demographic statistic, so only a line or two about the Vets would be needed if you really feel it's an important fact that needs to be included. Again, look at other featured city articles; not only how they are organized, but what is included in them. They all follow a similar pattern. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

You actually brought up a good point and sparked a thought. Since it is a demographic thing, could it be written into prose and moved to demographics? It has a Census source, so it would fit right in. What do you think? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 19:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

We are sitting down to Easter brunch (not quite dinner), so I will be back in about 20 to 25 minutes and can devote my entire attention to this, okie dokie? :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 19:03, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

No worries about the timing. I don't expect instant answers (especially on a holiday!) and am not interested in anything close to edit warring. As I said earlier, if you are just absolutely certain readers will not get the "full picture" of Stephens City without knowing how many Veterans are in the town, then it could be included in prose in the demographics section, but really it could be summed up in 1 or 2 sentences. It's just not that significant of a statistic as it accounts for less than 10% (121 of over 1,400 people) of the population of a very small, low notability town. I know it sounds harsh, but that's the reality. If an encyclopedia were writing an article about Stephens City, would they include this?

Happy Easter! --JonRidinger (talk) 19:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Took a little longer than I thought...we had seconds :) I think people will get the full picture in the Demographics section. I never thought about putting it there. Plus, in December, we will probably have updated information with the 2010 Census coming out, so it will be even better. :) I will, if you haven't already, write the section up in the Demograpics section and let you get a read on it and we can edit it, if need be, from there. :) A Happy Easter to you as well...NeutralHomer • Talk • 20:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I wrote up the new section, which you can see here and feel free to edit some of the wording. The telling of the numbers is kinda repeative, as I wasn't sure how to word it. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 20:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) On Demographics, I took a look at some other pages and used Winchester, Virginia as an example and they have their Demographics broken up in paragraphs. I think it would work better, so it isn't one clump of information. It seems with the clump of information it kinda gets a little hard to read. It is good to have a breath inbetween sentences, especially onces with alot of information such as Demographics. If you see if different, please let me know and we can discuss and come to a happy medium. :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, we need a little something for Geography. I didn't write that section, it was there before I started. I don't know if it should be kept, moved, or what. I see some towns have a Geography section, but am not sure what to put in it. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

That's fine with Demographics. Either way works; there really is no good way to sort that info out. As for Geography, it is to give readers a general idea about where the town is. This is where you talk about neighboring towns and the region. Climate is a subsection of Geography and topography can also be included, though it is not required. WP:USCITY is your best guide to any of the sections in giving a general idea of what they should include and how they should be ordered. USCITY is also the general guide for what editors will be looking for in terms of a GA as all GA's generally follow that guideline. --JonRidinger (talk) 15:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

What do you think about using Hagerstown, Maryland's Geography section? Maybe cut/paste some of it, rewrite it a little? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 23:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Try to avoid cut-and-paste as much as possible. If the article is at Good or Featured Status, using a specific section as a model is definitely a good idea. However, using a section as a direct copy and inserting the appropriate words (i.e. a template), while allowed, is just poor article writing and to me is a form of plagiarism. As for the spelling change, just remember to assume good faith. I was a little careless when I removed the extra citation and didn't notice the change in spelling (I would've mentioned a spelling change in the edit summary). The word should clearly be "distinct" though that may be somewhat POV since it is relative how "distinct" something is. All you need to say in the edit summary is "spelling" or "corrected spelling". --JonRidinger (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, I was totally using AGF in my spelling revert. I tend to use edit summaries to ask questions and such like that. But don't worry, I always use AGF :)

So, we could use the copy as a guide of how it should look, but not a direct copy? OK, I can do that...a good writing challenge for me. There is one slight problem though. I did copy most of the climate section (direct copy) from Washington, DC. :S Should we change that or leave it as is? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, added the Geography (rewritten, but some sentences used from the Hagerstown section cause they just clicked...but mostly rewritten) and moved the Climate section to the Geography section. I moved the Stephens City Tornado section too, as I am just not sure what to do with it yet. I would like to find a spot for that. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Break for convenience

I think the best route to take is first getting rid of the excess details before focusing on adding new sections. The problem with copying sections over is that the sources usually don't line up. As for the Tornado section, I mentioned at the article what I think should be done with that: it really should be mentioned as part of the history section and like the Veterans info could be summarized in a few short sentences. I know you consider it a big event, but remember, think like a Wikipedia editor, not a Stephens City historian. In the bigger picture, the tornado was one of the significant events of the town's history, but it's hardly the defining or even close to the most important event in its history. It was also not that significant nationally (it was just an F1 with minor damage) as there were other tornadoes and damage from Ivan and its remnants across the country. On top of that it wasn't in but near Stephens City. This article is, with few exceptions, restricted to the town boundaries of Stephens City, not near Stephens City. That's why most of the section as it currently stands falls under WP:FANCRUFT, which is true for much of the other sections too as well as "border creep" where the article doesn't actually focus on the town itself, but on the general area around the town. In other words, too much detail and much of it is tangential. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the reason I included it, was cause it was called "The Stephens City Tornado" and it was the first time...well, since I have lived here and that is 17 years...that the fire whistle sirens went off in town. Most, including myself, didn't even know that the town had them...and the sirens are in Stephens City proper. Unfortunately, I had to remove the sentence about the sirens, cause I couldn't back it up with references. Nothing in the local papers discussed that. That was just a personal observation and fell under WP:OR...so out it went. The big quoted section, while nice, it isn't needed. I just included it cause it was a first hand account of a non-NWS person who could be backed up by sources (you will see them on the section). So, I kinda went overboard and included it all. :) I just don't know what to cut and what not to, cause it should be included, but what and where, I don't know. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It's good you're seeing what is OR and what is worthwhile, but you still have to look at it from a Wikipedia perspective. Coverage in the local paper does not equal notability. Even having reliable sources does not necessarily mean it should be included in an article. See WP:N as well as WP:ILIKEIT. There are a lot of things I think are interesting about my own hometown's history, but in the end, I have to evaluate them based on Wikipedia standards and policies instead of my personal preferences. In looking at the sources in the Tornado section, only one mentions it with any kind of significance and that was only because of how it damaged wooden agricultural buildings (with the source coming from an organization that deals with wood structures). The other sources simply show the Stephens City Tornado was a minor tornado and one of many that day. If it were me, I would mention it in one or two sentences in the section of history that is most recent. "On September 17, 2004, spawned by remnants of Hurricane Ivan, an F1 tornado touched down just south of the town along Interstate 81 causing approximately $1 million in damage. It was one of a record 40 tornadoes to hit northern Virginia that day." Or something like that. It would be one thing if it were an F5 tornado that obliterated the town and was covered nationally, but this isn't even close: it was one of 40 tornadoes just in Virginia and 117 nationally. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, sounds good and I can use the sources I have to back it up. Problem is I have a picture to go along with it. Should I use it or just let it sit over at Commons? Also, this should go in History, right? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it is best suited in the History section near the end where the most recent history is. While it is a weather event, it is more importantly a historical event. As for the picture, I think you could do without. Since the history section is going to be drastically reduced, chances are it won't fit anyway and again, it's really not that major of an event even in the town's history looking at the bigger picture. There's nothing wrong with having it "sit" at the Commons, especially since there is a template in the article directing readers to the Stephens City category.

As a side note, I looked up the local history I have to see how the tornado my parents have told me about in 1973 is covered. It was completely inside the city limits, caused $1 million of damage (in 1973 dollars, which included damage to my grandparents' house and many others) and hit during--and very close to--the high school's graduation ceremony. It's covered in *one* long sentence in the history book. Important to those who experienced it, but not so important in the bigger picture, even at a local level. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Parkwells was working on the history section (gotta find him and see how he is doing) and I think he was going to trim some of the editorial language, mash some sentences together and get things in order, but still keep a good bit of the information. He is trimming (you can see in the history) some of the paragraphs down a good bit, but keeping the information. He said he was going to work on it via sandbox, but he has been on other edits too. I really don't want a drastic cut of the history cause you can't tell 250 years of history (some of it detailed) in 2 or 3 paragraphs. It leaves ALOT out and does the page and town a disservice. I know I have to think as a Wikipedian and editor, but this page is still about the town of Stephens City, so it is "their page" too (in a sense}, so we kinda gotta keep most of the history as we can. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 03:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Bottom section of the History section and I was even able to fit in the picture. :) I like keeping my pictures. I might go out sometime tomorrow and get some update photos with the blooms. I would like to have updated photos (so they don't look stale, even though the town doesn't change) every couple years. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 04:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

That's cool...as long as the pictures fit and aren't cluttered or in inappropriate places, there's no problem. Just remember there IS such a thing as too many pictures, so just be smart :)! Nothing wrong with keeping pictures up to date, just make sure you don't add too many of the same thing from the same angle. More recent or not, if little or nothing has changed, we don't need 10 views of it, ya know? And just because you don't use them in the article, doesn't mean they aren't being used. I have TONS of pictures that have no current place other than the gallery on the Commons, so I made a personal gallery here. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

They would be the same view, just with the Spring blooms and such. I would just remove the current picture and replace it with the new one. No need to two pictures of the same thing like you said. :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 04:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Again, if New York City's history can be summarized in several paragraphs without subheadings, there is no reason a younger, significantly smaller, and far lesser-known town can't also be. As I keep saying, the key is thinking like a Wikipedia editor and not a Stephens City resident. As a Stephens City resident, all the town's history seems important. As a Wikipedia editor, only main events stick out based on Wikipedia standards of notability and keeping focus on the main subject of the article. The only part of being a resident that plays into editing is having access to additional sources (particularly printed works not online) and being able to get photographs of the area to enhance the article. But in no way is this "their page". This is a Wikipedia article about Stephens City and in the end must conform to established objective Wikipedia standards for content and organization, not subjective preferences of local editors (see WP:NOT and WP:MOS). The vast majority of the history section touches on events outside of the town and focuses on details about certain people; interesting yes, but more trivia and tangential information than encyclopedic. If people really want to find the greater details, there are websites for that available through citations or an external links section. Wikipedia articles are to give a general idea about what made the town the way it is and what it's like now, not be a comprehensive guide to everything about the town. All Good Articles have relatively small history sections, even for much larger and well-known cities that are comparable in age to Stephens City. The age of the town is largely irrelevant to how large its history section should be. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't mean the article belongs to the people of Stephens City, but that page is about Stephens City, so those people mentioned on the article in the history it is "their page" cause they make up the history. It is "their town". Not anyone living mind you, just the people who make up the history. I am kind of a "historic people make and own a town" kinda person. So that is where that came from.

If we can get all this information into about 6 to 12 paragraphs, then I would be OK with it, but I don't want to see a big hole in the history because we cut too much. I don't want people to go "what happened here" and not have the information to tell them. That, I would feel as a Wikipedian, as we had failed at the section. But if we can keep it all in there and squeeze into at most 12 paragraphs, then we have done good. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 04:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Just a little note. The second NWS source about the tornado is for the claim of the two injuries, so I had to add it back. Second note on the source for "bicenquinquagenary": the reason that is there is so people didn't think I made the word up. :) Just being dotting my "I"s :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

That's fine; just make sure the citations are as close to the fact they cite as possible. Placing them at the end of the paragraph makes it difficult to verify them. Also, adding the "quote" parameter allows you to place a quote from the source (I did it for the source I added), which also makes it easier to verify a source. The source for "bicenquinquagenary" still isn't needed; using the wikilink to Anniversary it is mentioned in the article, showing it isn't made up. The more important fact to cite is the date of the 250th for Stephens City. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

<-----(edit conflict)That's the thing, though. Most people, unless they are already familiar with the history, won't go "what happened here." Believe me when I say I have all the sympathy in the world as a historian, resident, and Wikipedia editor. It can be quite a challenge to decide what to include and what not to. In the end I have to honestly ask myself and answer the question, "will a reader's understanding of my city be that much worse if this isn't included or this is?" Remember, the vast majority of readers will likely have never heard of the town at all or know very little about it. Maybe they passed through it on I-81, maybe they knew someone from there, or maybe they followed a Wikilink to the article. The key is deciding what is most important for this article and what information is better suited for a town history website. Again, if people want more, there are ways to help them find the more intricate details on external sites. No need to completely duplicate info here. Wikipedia is not a repository or a mirror site, not is it an encyclopedia of everything. Yes, the people of the town make its history, but the editors decide which parts of history best explain why the town is the way it is and here we have established guidelines on notability and encyclopedic, neutral content. You want this to be a GA, so unless it has some serious editing in content, it'll never get there because it has to meet certain standards. Too much detail is just as bad as not enough; it's just the opposite extreme. The best articles--history included--summarize the key points and have only the most necessary finer details. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I know we are a "dot on the map" :) Trust me, when we would pass through on the way to my grandparents from Norfolk, I never knew it was here. Now, to me, it is the center of the universe. I guess I can't get that "resident of the town" out of my head and think like a Wikipedian....yeah, I live here...well, on the outskirts, so I am not technically a true Stephens Citian, but I do live in Stephens City. But like I said, if we can squeeze all that information (edited down as it will be) into 6 to 12 (or how ever many) paragraphs, then I think we will have done good work. It will be ALOT of work to do, but I think it can be done. Personally, I would like to keep it as it was, but I know that isn't possible....again, just a resident's opinion. For now, I am leaving the history into the hands of Parkwells since he has taken it up. I left him a message, he appears to be offline for the night, so he will probably answer tomorrow. We can work on other sections until then. What do you want to work on? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Trust me, I am in the same boat with my hometown. I consider it waaaay more important than it really is (and we should really...why else live there if we don't like it?) and editing Wikipedia has really helped me put it all into perspective. And I didn't actually live in the city limits either until last year!

Again, the best histories can summarize the most important points and include finer details as needed to enhance rather than clutter a history in an article like this. It's a fine art really and having people not connected to help edit or at least look over something like that is a big help in obtaining that balanced perspective. I'm headed for bed and then will have limited availability the next 8 days as I will be visiting family out west, but will try to help as needed when I can. Look at the recommendations I left on the talk page for the article for other sections and of course become as familiar as possible with WP:USCITY. Nothing I haven't repeated a million times :). --JonRidinger (talk) 05:43, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

OKie Dokie...looking at the Attractions and Festivals sections and thinking about what to do there right now. Have fun out west. Hope you don't get caught up in the rain :) Take Care...NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Second break

Also, when using the citation templates, if you don't use a parameter (like "first" and "last" for instance) just delete it rather than leaving it there empty. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I thought they were required. I will go through and find ones I didn't do that on and delete them...if you haven't already. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Went through and corrected them. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Awesome...yeah I think "title" is the only required parameter (like the template won't work without it) if I remember right. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have made some changes. Whew...what alot of work. With Hagerstown, Maryland (a good written article) and Minneapolis (a featured article) in mind, I moved the sections around. I was going to add an "Economy" section, but I had no information to back it up, so I cut it shortly after writing it. I created a "Culture" section and moved "Festivals" and "Attractions" there, as well as made a "Parks" section for the two parks in the town limits. I cut the "Newtown-Stephensburg Historic District" section, moved the picture of the plaque to the Newtown-Stephensburg Historic District page and put a quick blurb in the intro (which already exsisted). Still keeping in tune with Minneapolis, I found a great piece of information on churches and religion (and that is BIG in Virginia, especially this part), so I used it (with double sources to the actual study and the link the actual information comes from) and created a "Religion" section. Great information. With the extra room, I added three more pictures (took two out) and it looks better.

Now, really, all that needs done is the "History" section. I am still working with the Newtown History Center on getting sources for the History section and Parkwells is working (I hope) on editing. So, by the time you get back from out-west, this thing might be ready for Good Article re-submission....I hope. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 09:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Too many separate articles

Hi, I understand you love Stephens City, but since it is a town of less than 1200, separate articles about its elementary, middle and high schools, really can't be supported unless unusual history took place there. (I looked at your sandbox and saw you were working on an article about the schools in general, and then one for each school.) That is overkill and you will have a difficult time finding sources. It might be good for you to look at some articles on other small towns to see how the material is treated. Did not have a chance to work on history but will get back to it. Since you're interested in the town, you might try looking further at academic sources - what was the history of Germans in the Shenandoah Valley? How long did they speak German and use it in church? When did the demographics change and how? what are elements of changed culture? at least those are questions I'd have. (Also have some German ancestry.)

Yeah this is what I've been saying too. The article for the school division could be expanded to include a brief history and Sherando High School needs some work too. A separate article focusing only on the schools in Stephens City is unnecessary and will end up getting deleted as duplicating info. Any articles on elementary schools will probably get deleted as few, even ones with some sources, survive deletion debate as only a select number of elementary schools meet notability. Remember, just because something has sources doesn't mean it's notable. In the Stephens City article itself, the "education" section should be a paragraph or two and focus on what public schools directly serve Stephens City and any private schools in the town limits (if it's not in the town limits, it should be mentioned in the article about whatever jurisdiction it's actually in) and any notable accomplishments or designations. It's good you're looking at good and featured articles, but remember that not all of them are exact copies of each other; many sections that are appropriate for articles about larger cities won't be appropriate for an article about this town because of it's small size and very low notability. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I kinda just bat things around, it probably will never get done, but I like to take a look at things, see how they look and then come back to them and bat them around some more. My general idea was to have a page on the schools (a seperate page) with backed up histories, sources and the like. Since Sherando High School had a page, I thought about having pages for the other schools, but then I thought while trying to get to sleep, I could probably have a couple paragraphs of history on the Schools in Stephens City, Virginia page that I am thinking about. Again, it is just something I am batting around, something I can do in the sandbox without any consequence like having it on mainspace. For now, the schools and education section are seen here on the main Stephens City page in a couple paragraphs. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 19:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, because the school division article has so little, there would be no justification for an article about just the schools in Stephens City. Stick any appropriate history at Frederick County Public Schools (Virginia) if anywhere. That entire article is basically just a list, so having subsections for each school or for all the elementary schools or all the middle schools isn't out of the question in my opinion. And there should definitely be a link to that article in the education section, probably a "see also" at the top. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I haven't touched it since I moved it there. So, I probably won't do anything with it. I just like to toy around with ideas, see them "on paper" and usually (normally always) delete them as unnecessary. I think the Stephens City, Virginia#Education section works, I guess I was kinda trying to find a way to link to the pictures I have of all three schools. Oh well, that is what a sandbox is for though. :)

But that brings up a good idea. We could little "blurbs" about the schools, with pictures, and links to more complete articles on each school. If, when you get back from "out west", would like to work on that. Most of the information is on the Frederick County Public Schools website and could be knocked into prose...then I could drive around the next pretty day and snap some shots of the schools exteriors and put them up on Commons and link them. That is, if you like to work on a project. If you have something else you are working on, I totally understand. Just throwing an idea out there. :) - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Suggest change in photo

A new photo that shows more of the stores and/or houses on Main Street would give more a sense of the town than the current one that shows so much road.--Parkwells (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me see what I have. I took alot of photos a couple years ago, might have taken something that will work. I will go through and upload a couple. Look for some new photos under the Stephens City, Virginia category on Commons. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 19:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Census data

One way to have some questions answered is to look for census data on the town. Rootsweb.com has a lot of material on small town history, as does the American Local HIstory Network - both are primarily organized by county, and you can go down from there. Did the German immigrants and their descendants own slaves? If not, why not? What were the numbers of free people and slaves in 1800? 1860? Was this an area of independent farms and subsistence agriculture? Sounded like it. Or, what was the export crop? All such data should be sourced.--Parkwells (talk) 12:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

You can also look at census data for the county and surrounding towns and point out anything that is significantly different (without making unsourced conjectures as to why) like if the town has a higher amount of females or educated people or something like that. Again, though, the best thing to focus on is getting the large amount of into under control and sorting out what is appropriate and what isn't, then we can go through and add the finer details. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the 2000 Census Data has ALOT of ancestry information on this page. I could include it in a subsection of the Demographics section, if you all like. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 19:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

You are a true wikipedian !!! Kay Lee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kay Kiljae Lee (talk • contribs) 03:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Template:un-retired controversy

I am writing for the retired user who overruling your objections recreated the deleted un-retired template. Got an email from him that says you are threatening to take him to ANI if he recreates it again should it be deleted. Take this as solemn warning that if you attempt to do so, he will go over your head and file charges against YOU with the Arbitration Committee. And should that not work, there is external resources to appeal to for relief, such as the Wikimedia Foundation or consultation with a legal counsel to see what to do about you. Your campaign against the re-creator of the un-retired template is criminal harassment, plain and simple. It won't be tolerated. You continue, we go to arbitration at once. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 06:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Then let us settle this in arbitration. JourneyManTraveler is retired anyway, he doesn't plan to come back anymore. He's had it with the way Wikipedia operates and the way it abuses editors. He's expressed an interest in other wikis and may switch to others that are better run, like Citizendium. Larry Sanger did a great thing in creating an online resource that colleges actually trust and allow students to cite directly in all assignments. I will launch a request for arbitration in 24 to 48 hours. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 06:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I am sick of your harassment of myself for defending a man no longer a part of this project. I am removing YOUR templates on MY page. It's my page, I do with it as I please. You keep this up, I will take you before arbitration and let a proceeding decide this dispute. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 06:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

At least you did me a service. I do respect that, even many times in history enemies have at least some respect for one another's courage of their convictions, like in fiction Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Moriarty. Thank you for the link. I didn't want a fight, but you are attacking an innocent man who made something that I agree with him was a useful tool. I'll work on the arbitration paperwork in 24 to 48 hours. Thank you for the assistance though. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 06:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm getting to work on it when I can, but definitely in 24 to 48 hours. I am ill right now with a chronic pain problem and at times it's so bad I am amazed I can crawl out of bed some mornings. So you'll have to excuse me, unless you have no regard for people with disabilities. I would prefer settling up informally between us, as my internal belief system would prefer. But since you are being a hardliner not willing to deal, fine, arbitration committee it is. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 07:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, you want comparisons? I have both degenerative disc disease in my spinal column, in my thoracic spine and now a neurologist tells me I have Syringomyelia, a neurological problem that can possibly obliterate my spinal cord. Here's the link to the disease. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringomyelia

Because of both things, I have to take Tramadol and use a TENS device to keep my insane levels of pain in check, and sometimes neither really does any good.

I have lost all my grandparents, I have NONE left alive. My last grandparent died in the mid-summer of 2003 of Pancreatic Cancer, my mother also died in late January this year of blood acidosis caused by her slipping into diabetic shock because she couldn't eat when she was sick with a stomach virus. She'd been Type II diabetes for almost 20 years, but when I and my uncle rushed her to the local ER, come to find out she was now a Type I diabetic and now she has to take injections of TWO different versions of insulin. She was held at the hospital here for 9 days, released on Sunday afternoon of Day 9. During that time she was in rough straits, kidney function slid to almost nothing. NOTHING!! She almost DIED!! And because of it, she missed my birthday, which was on the fourth day she was in the hospital. Even now it still eats at her she missed it. I have tried to tell her that I wasn't bothered by that, that her life was what mattered to me and her living was the best present I could get. I am not one for much in the way of money and material possessions. Such things don't matter much to me. I want to be successful yes, but I don't want to be like some people who get wealthy and then that's all that matters.

I have said all I am willing to say about the above. Some things are so painful for me to think of, I don't have the stomach to write it. You want to still make this a matter for arbitration, I'll still go for it. But if you want to deal and settle peaceably outside of formal procedures, I'm willing to listen. I'll let you 24 to 72 hours to think. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 07:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

As a side note, I am an undergraduate student in human development, with a particular concentration in developmental psychology. I have studied your condition as part of an assignment I had to write for a psychology class from last term, and I may have to for my current psychology class for this current term, which is almost over in another month or so. So, I have an idea of what you are talking about. Besides that, my aforementioned uncle is a psychologist himself, semi-retired. But he still keeps a current NYS practice license and renews his registration with the state as required to retain the right to practice his tradecraft. I can ask him about your condition if I need some answers. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 07:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The way I figure, we can settle up on at least civil terms would be to each of us calm down, go to bed. In the morning settle by withdrawing the charges each filed on the other and I can remove your templates from my page. Then we return to the discussion on the un-retired template and let nature take its course. I know we won't be friends, but we can try to respect each other. When I learned I had Syringomyelia, I realized just how short life can be. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 07:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I know that many cases, psychologists aren't people I'd hang around with much. My uncle is a different kind of man, he isn't a blowhard like most. But I understand your position. I am enrolling in a program for people to get vocational rehabilitation. Now I find I have to get an exam by a neuro shrink. Two two-hour sessions await me. Not fun. Well, see you in the morning. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 07:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies)#Broadcasting stations

You have recently participated in discussion at an AFD for a broadcast station. I have recently posted the above topic on the talk page of the notability guideline for organizations and companies, to see if there is interest in adding language related to the notability of radio and TV broadcast stations to that guideline. Your input would be most welcome. Thanks. Edison (talk) 01:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are my edits disruptive?

I made these updates because there were too many links. Also, I wanted to add some history to some of the callsigns you reverted. I don't understand why you would revert them. Thanks. --PeopleNeedMe (talk) 05:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I was about to say that too. The reverts you made: [1], [2], [3] and [4] was definitely not vandalism. Be careful now... Minimac (talk) 05:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Neutralhomer. You have new messages at Minimac's talk page.
Message added 05:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Minimac (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Talk page

I don't care much for your warnings OR your threats. Your actions on the other hand are unacceptable, such as removing my POV comment where I had the freedom of speech right to make a closing statement before leaving the project. I will not tolerate however you cluttering up my talk page with your pretended threats. You write me again or reinstate the warnings, see you in arbitration. Leave me the hell alone. I wasn't looking for a fight, but damn it you're pushing my patience. 68.236.155.129 (talk) 23:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)