User talk:Elrith/Archive02

Previous talk at User talk:Elrith/Archive01

Now that I've cooled off a bit...

...I'm hoping there's some way we can resolve the issue at Talk:Teemu Selänne over diacritics in names without more WP:ATTACKs. I've provided a couple of examples (very bottom of the section) of what Masterhatch and I are getting at, as I believe they're representative of the current naming policies, even setting aside the admittedly contentious proposed guidelines that were linked at the start of the argument.

I've had my fun shouting at people I've never met, and now I'm ready for it to just end. Let's see if we can work this out. Doogie2K (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you have cooled down a bit, because I have to say that I highly resent your remarks and tone at Talk:Teemu Selänne. I haven't had much fun with this whole debate, and the fact that you have the nerve to accuse me of not having good faith when your own comments have been offensive, attacking and totally non-constructive simply makes me unable to take you seriously. When you grow up a little, maybe I can talk Wikipedia with you. Your conduct on that talk page is at such a level that it's better for both of us if we just don't communicate. Elrith 17:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that's a bit of a rude answer. But I really am ticked off. To be constructive, what I don't understand is how the ä in Selänne can hurt anyone. It's puzzled me from the very beginning of this debate and I still don't understand it. This is the post by Masterhatch that started this whole debate. I quote: "Those non english accents are driving me nuts." I can't understand this attitude at all, and given that this is how we got started, I have a fairly short fuse about being accused of pushing my personal POV. As near as I can understand any of this, Masterhatch is personally offended by the letter ä. I don't get it. Elrith 17:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

See, now, this is why I flew off the handle in the first place: patronizing attitudes like yours that try to imply that we English-speakers are too stupid to spell foreign names correctly. You're not the only one with a short fuse when accused of pushing PoV, especially when you're just trying to follow policy. I can perfectly see why non-English characters would drive Masterhatch nuts in names that are commonly spelled without them in the English-speaking world. Not only is it a WP:NAME violation, but it's also a pain to try to work with it when you only have a standard North American keyboard, which I have to say, most of the English-speaking world has. Technical limitations are beyond nearly everyone's control, and indeed, WP policy (maybe even WP:NAME) says that articles should be written with the masses in mind, not a certain group of editors. Clearly, the masses in most English-speaking countries are more apt to recognize "Selanne" and not "Selänne", given its prevalence in every form of hockey media in existence; I cite hockey media specifically because that's all we've got to represent the English language, in this case. And yes, you can clearly see they're the same name, but if you were to poll 1,000 random people in Anaheim or Denver or Winnipeg, how many of them even know that the ä is there? That's the kind of thing you have to consider when deciding whether to use the non-English characters: are they commonly used/heard of in the English-speaking world? Hell, even Quebec Nordiques lost its diacritic, and I would argue the French names with diacritics are just as prevalent – in Canada, anyway – as without, at least for common names like Montreal and Quebec. Doogie2K (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your idea that I think English speakers are too stupid to spell is entirely your idea. I've never, over this entire debate, said anything of the sort. This kind of thing is exactly what inflames debates and leads to everyone losing their temper.

As for the rest of your argument, Selänne is just as easily recognizable to an English speaker than Selanne. You can't seriously be telling me that when you see the Teemu Selänne page, you can't tell who it's about, but could if it was called Teemu Selanne. So I think this argument is ridiculous. Similarly, the idea that Wikipedia articles have to conform to the level of knowledge of 1,000 random North Americans is totally ludicrous. I'll bet you none of them have ever heard of a Markov algorithm, so under your line of reasoning, that article needs to be deleted. I'm perfectly aware that most North American hockey publications don't know or care that his name is spelled Selänne instead of Selanne. Finnish publications always spell Simon Gagné's name Gagne, and omit the diacritics from Czech names. That's laziness and ignorance as well. I'd never make an argument on Finnish Wikipedia that the diacritics need to be removed because Finnish hockey publications omit them.

However, I'm going back on my Wikibreak; this debate still isn't going anywhere, and your antagonistic attitude leads me to believe this particular discussion isn't going anywhere, either. I've posted something of a closing statement on Talk:Teemu Selänne; if you want to remove diacritics and Finnish/Scandinavian letters from Wikipedia, you want to change Wikipedia, and that is best handled through the Wikipedia channels for creating a policy, instead of edit wars and random votes on moving single articles. I hope you and "your side", like Masterhatch says, take this issue there and try to form a Wikipedia-wide consensus. If Wikipedia as a whole comes around to not using Finnish letters, then I'll accept Teemu Selanne. Until then, I'll keep using them and reverting changes that remove them as often as I can be bothered.

To end on a positive note: thank you for making an effort to resolve this dispute by talking here. I hope we can talk about this and reach some kind of conclusion over a Wikipedia-wide policy that would end this debate. I hope you drop me a note if someone starts a policy proposal over this, and we can discuss it there. Elrith 16:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to laugh at your blatant stretching of my logic into a straw man about the Markov algorithm. Anyway, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I've already apologized for getting pissy. Others started this edit war long ago by moving pages without discussion, adding these special characters. Without proper consensus, I believe the pages should be put back where they were, and usually, that's without special characters, and usually, that's where they should stay, because of how the average English speaker knows the name. As I said, the names are still recognizable, but it's obviously not representative of how the average English speaker would use them, which, I believe, is how we have to work. If you feel it's lazy or shortsighted, that's fine, but I don't see how that can really be changed. It's not like we're completely disregarding the native spelling and pronunciation -- I like the idea of adding IPA pronunciation guides to non-English names -- we're simply listing by the best-known form of the name in English. Again, see Quebec Nordiques and Marian Gaborik, which were both settled by consensus (though the Nords one was kinda thin).

Enjoy your Wikibreak, and I hope we can find a way to settle this as a community at a later date. Doogie2K (talk) 06:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Laugh all you want; your original argument is still ridiculous. You can't possibly mean that Wikipedia needs to be dumbed down to the level of knowledge of a hypothetical "average" reader. And your account of how this edit war started is simply untrue. I've given you a reference to when this was first brought up. I still have to say that I very strongly feel that your attitude is completely unconstructive and I object to your tone on Talk:Teemu Selänne and here, especially your rudeness and exaggerations of things I've said, most blatantly your claim that I think "English speakers are too stupid to spell", and your total refusal to assume either good faith or even basic intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. But as I said, I'm off on a Wikibreak, and I hope I won't be returning to this any time soon. Elrith 11:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, so much for the Wikibreak. Please comment on my policy proposal, to which I've linked below! Elrith 14:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Finnish letters and proper names

For anyone's information who comes to this page on the topic of Finnish letters and proper names, I've created a policy proposal dealing with Finnish proper names at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish). Elrith 14:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Eurovision Song Contest

Hi. What is your problem with dashes? EuroSong ^talk 10:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In this particular case, I thought they were very clumsy and broke up the text. On that page, I felt each sentence with dashes read far better without them. If you feel differently, you can restore them; I'm not in any way opposed to them. Elrith 11:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. I do feel differently: many of the replacements you made with commas, for example, I feel are over-use of commas – and do not distinguish between the correct use of commas, and parenthetical asides. Are you interested in Eurovision yourself, or did you just stumble across the article in your Wikisurfing? :) EuroSong ^talk 11:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead and replace them! My main objection was that a lot of the sentences are a little clunky and overlong; I suppose I didn't do too good a job of fixing that, but I didn't really think the dashes helped. I suppose most of the sentences I changed should really get a slight rewrite.

I have actually been watching the Eurovision song contest for as long as I can remember, and I was reading up on Ruslana, who I've loved ever since she won the contest. So I ended up on the other Eurovision song contest pages, and tried to do my bit for them. I suppose from your nick that you're a fan too? =) Elrith 11:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I shall :) And yes, of course! I'm a huge fan of the Contest: been going to see it live for the past 11 years; founder of eurosong.net; re-writer and majority contributor to the Eurovision Wikipedia article. My nickname here does rather give that away, hehe. I see you say you're "currently residing in Finland", and speak Finnish and English to a near-native level; but you don't say exactly where you are from, and what your native language is. May I ask?

With regards to the sentences – if you have re-write suggestions then please be my guest: if they're good ones then they shall stay. I think that the sentences with dashes are good as they are, but two heads are better than one; you can always contribute :) EuroSong ^talk 11:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure you can ask; I was born in Switzerland to Finnish parents, raised in Finland and schooled in English in Finland, Denmark and Switzerland. So I don't entirely know what to write down as my nationality. =) My native language is technically Finnish, but my entire education is in English, which means there are some gaps in my Finnish. So I don't really speak either at a native level; the dilemma of being bilingual, I suppose...

Amazingly enough, the Eurovision Song Contest is in Finland next year, so I may be going to see it live too! I have to say none of us would have believed we'd ever see Finland win. I bow to your superior Eurovision props, though. =) I looked at Finland in the Eurovision Song Contest and realized that there's an awful lot of red in the list; I think that since I'm done with Wikipedia ice hockey for a while, I'll make that my next personal Wikiproject (I like creating pages!). I already started with Nina Åström; at the very least I'll try to write a stub translation from Finnish Wikipedia for everyone who's covered there. Since you're a greater expert than me, I'd really appreciate it if you check out my contributions to see I don't mess anything up. Elrith 12:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming conventions (Finnish)

Your proposed guideline/policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish), while excellent, has not generated any more discussion yet than yet another argument between me and User:Masterhatch. Should it be brought to the attention of more Wikipedia users? Perhaps a straw poll? JIP | Talk 11:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I'm sorry, I somehow didn't notice your message here earlier. I've been off Wikipedia for a good while, and having seen the reception my policy proposal got, I'm not much interested in advancing it. I don't see any hope for this debate after certain people made it into an issue of "linguistic prestige", which I simply can't understand. If you want to run with it, I wish you luck! Elrith 03:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Grammar issue

I noticed that you listed yourself as a grammar nazi. I actually have a grammar issue that I thought you might be willing to help with. It is regarding whether or not dances (like waltz, tango, swing, ballet, etc.) should be capitalized. There is currently a discussion about it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dance and Talk:Lindy Hop. We would certainly appreciate your input. Thanks! —Cswrye 14:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello again

Long time no talk. I like your anti-SC userbox and also I did not know you liked Sailor Moon! Anyways, there is this new guy in the diacritics debate, actually reasonable. There is a talk page with a compromise, linked on my talk page. It does not make much sense to me but it keeps diacritics on the pages (for the most part I think at least). Personally I think these people should be contributing better things with their time than removing diacritics from articles.. Just like we do not go around searching for pages without diacritics to fix. We create the pages with diacritics, etc. Well anyways here's to 2007 being less diacritic drama filled. Hazelorb 03:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Long time, yeah. =) I don't really sign in regularly any more, so this is how long it takes me to answer... I looked at the proposal and I don't agree at all. I don't understand why a Finnish hockey player's name would be spelled one way if he plays in Europe and another if he plays in the NHL. It wouldn't make any sense to me that the Olympic MVP counts as an "NHL player" as opposed to a Finnish player. I've pretty much given up on this whole diacritic thing because I can't really be bothered any more. I hope there's less drama but I can't really see any workable compromises either. I tried to formulate a guideline (there's a link on this page, I think) but that went nowhere.

Sorry about the Flyers this season, by the way. =( Elrith 19:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Pink Hat AfD

Woohoo! You fixed it! Thanks a bunch. Did you do the other steps as well? I also still want to know what I did wrong, so if you have the time to give me a short rundown that'd be great. But regardless, you helped me big time. Thanks again! --Edwin Herdman 05:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I didn't do anything... =) If you had trouble getting the AfD stuff to show up right, that was probably just because of the lag between saving your edits and them showing up. But I really didn't do anything other than vote! Elrith 05:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, somehow I got confused about that. It was Commander Keane. Well then, er, thanks for voting! :) --Edwin Herdman 05:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Hey, no problem. Glad you got everything sorted out! Elrith 06:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

red hair

Nice bit of tidy-up, there :) Thanks for that - Alison ☺ 19:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you! It's really nice to get positive feedback... =) I try to fight garbage on Wikipedia. Elrith 22:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Continuation War

Thanks for help in the Continuation War! Anyway, as Finnish offensive cannot be separated to official campaigns, it is better to keep the original substructure if we want to add any information about the war itself instead of circling around the issue. --Whiskey 09:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, if you think so. I think the offensive does divide fairly neatly into those four campaigns even if they aren't "official" operations, but I'm just happy to help. Thanks for removing the other Seitajärvi picture; that really was a very silly argument. Elrith 13:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

2000 NHL Entry Draft

Yes, I realize I reverted the league names, too. I attempted to fix it but 90% of the articles I went to at that point were lagging, if they were loading at all. While I was waiting for the changes I may (putting the league names back to how you had them), I realized there was no clear consensus on whether diacritics should be on articles like that or not. Player pages yes, team pages no, but other articles have never been mentioned. So I was trying to go back and change it back, but couldn't. If you'd like to participate, there's a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive78#Diacritics on non-team and non-player pages about it right now. Bsroiaadn^Talk 09:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Stephen King's inspiration

Hello. Back in May you participated in an AfD discussion on Stephen King's inspiration. I have called this AfD for review as I believe it was deleted against consensus in the discussion. If you have a few moments, would you please read the review and weigh in with your current opinion? Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_July_22#Stephen_King.27s_inspiration Many thanks. All the best LACameraman 15:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

2nd XMonad AfD

Hi: you previously contributed to/edited the 1st AfD discussion about XMonad. XMonad has again been nominated for deletion; as you previously edited, I thought you would like to know. (I have also contacted all the other non-anon editors.) If you no longer care, please feel free to ignore this. Thanks. --Gwern (contribs) 02:03 24 December 2007 (GMT)