User talk:Hillgentleman

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Hi Hillgentleman. I stumbled across the above template, which you created about one year ago. Is it used for anything? No pages link to it at this time. I'm wondering if it should be deleted? Regards, Accurizer (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Names of the Cantonese Language

Hi,

You're welcome to add the Cantonese pronunciation to the article, as Cantonese. However, this is English wikipedia, and our standard is to use English nomenclature in the headings. Jyut Jyu is not used as English in any English-language source that I can find, whereas Yue is quite common as English, second only to Cantonese itself. kwami (talk) 15:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where you live, but in the three continents that I have been, "Yue" as an English term is almost unheard of. I would say you could add "Yuet Yue", or Jyut Jyu as a transliteration of the common Chinese name; but, seriously, if "Yue" is an English name, it is not notable enough to be wikipedia-ed. Hillgentleman (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Kwamikagami. English language sources like Margaret Mian Yan, Introduction to Chinese Dialectology (pp.192-219, Yue); Jerry Norman, Chinese (pp.214-221, Yue), S. Robert Ramsey, The Languages of China, pp.98-107, (Yue (Cantonese)) and Hilary Chappell, Sinitic Grammar: Synchronic and Diachronic Perspectives in her introductory chapter History of Chinese Dialects, p.16 (Yue) and in part IV named Yue Grammar (pp.189-283), all use Yue. This usage makes Yue very notable to be wikipedia-ed, because usage in these highly regarded works is verifiable, which can't be said of personal experiences made in a number of continents (how impressive that number on first sight may seem), Guss2 (talk) 08:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The use of "Yue" is purely academic, just like almost nobody would say homo sapien sapien instead of human. You are welcome to list Yue like you list the aformentioned scientific nomenclature in human, with full English explantion of what that actually means. And however impressive the list of literature you have, you cannot claim to understand the language better than native speakers to make a good judgement on that matter. I know wikipedia has its standards and a culture which gives more say to those amateurs who are more equiped in searching the literature than the real experts. So, what can I say, 夏蟲不可語冰。 Regards, Hillgentleman (talk) 13:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe let me put it this way: How do you hear people pronounce the term "Yue"? Or how would you say it? Regards :-) , Hillgentleman (talk) 13:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Academically" is a good way of putting it, though italics aren't used the way they are for binomials. It may be principally a written form. Pronunciation would presumably be an individual approximation of the Mandarin, but we aren't making any claim about how it's pronounced.

The OED has [ˈjyə]. It gives examples like "the man spoke in northern Min dialect as opposed to his own expatriate Yue dialect," from Craig Thomas (1982) Jade Tiger, which is a spy novel. But I agree the term is probably largely restricted to academic writing. kwami (talk) 16:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. I was asking how you would pronounce it, or how you have heard people said it; and you needed to check the OED. That says it all. Hillgentleman (talk) 16:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And your point is? How would you pronounce "Pinghua"? Or "Boudica", for that matter. If most people would have to look them up, does that mean that we should delete them from their articles? kwami (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I just wanted to know how you pronounce it; it doesn't matter if you get the "right" pronunciation or something else. I just wanted to know if you actually actively use it as a "common English name" as you claimed. Clearly you don't. Regards. Hillgentleman (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S. If you mean "平話", I do know its pronunciations in Cantonese and in Mandarin. The Mandarin romatisation system is quite straightforward. You just need to learn it. 知之為知之，不知為不知，是知也。Hillgentleman (talk) 17:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I use it about as often as Min, Wu, or Pinghua. Pronunciation is easy if one knows Mandarin, and I tend to use a slightly anglicized Mandarin pronunciation. I assumed your question was about the English pronunciation, as this is English wikipedia. Chinese pronunciations are utterly irrelevant. However, there are lots of language names that I use frequently but wouldn't have much certainty about how to pronounce in English. "Xhosa", for example, is quite easy if you know Xhosa, but for the English I'd have to check the dictionary. How do you pronounce Xhosa? Should we delete that spelling from the article if you don't happen to know the default English pronunciation offhand? kwami (talk) 17:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey man, that's a red herring. I have never made any claim on "Xhosa". However, you made a claim that "Yue is quite common in English" on thin evidence; in particular you cannot recall using it in real life, after having debated the issue with other wikipedians for months! :-)

Again, however adept are you in searching the literature, you need to go beyond such 紙上談兵 for they are no substitute for real knowledge.  :-) Regards, Hillgentleman (talk) 19:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll assume good faith, and take it that your misrepresentation of almost everything I've said are due to a failure of understanding on your part. Yue is a normal name for the language in English, therefore it belongs in the article. Jyut Jyu is not an English name for the language, so such claims need to be removed from the article. I'll be happy to reconsider if you ever come up with any evidence. kwami (talk) 21:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Kwami , I have nothing personally against you; I have simply found your position deeply ironic and I wanted to understand you. Now you are repeating what you have said before instead of giving a wholesome reply. I shall not waste our time and call it a day. Regards, :-) Hillgentleman (talk) 03:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realize you meant the question literally, because my personal pronunciation is utterly irrelevant. But if that's of interest to you, then I pronounce "Yue" in English the same way I do in Mandarin, except I drop the tone. But that's not really an English pronunciation, because English has neither [y] nor final [ε]. As for your reverts, "Yüeh" is the primary spelling in the OED; the entry was written while Wade-Giles still had primacy. Since you lectured me on a need to learn pinyin, I also find irony here, that you would object to an English spelling as not being English because you apparently didn't realize it simply follows standard Chinese transcription. Also, academia does not italicize language names the way biologists italicize cladistic binomials, so your H. sapiens analogy is spurious. If Yuè is being used as an unassimilated Chinese word, then yes, it would be italicized. However, the whole point is that Yue is an English word, and in that case is not italicized. kwami (talk) 07:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

All in all, this discussion indicates clearly that "Yue" is not a common English term, as you claimed in the beginning. You yourself hardly use it in real life. Nor do your acquaintances or mine. Really, have a good day. Regards, :-) Hillgentleman (talk) 07:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Your latest comments ("data-mining" etc.) suggest you think I'm trying to pull a fast one. But my sources are merely what I can reach without moving my chair; I haven't gone out of my way to dig things up. Although I doubt I've ever heard "Yue" used in spoken English, except by people who know Mandarin, that doesn't mean it's not a common English word. English consists of both a spoken and a written language, and in the academic literature I'm familiar with, "Yue" is probably at least as common as "Cantonese", and very likely more common. It is quite similar to the situation with Wu vs. Shanghainese (only the latter is used much in spoken English, but the former is common in texts), Min vs. Fujianese or Taiwanese, etc. There are a lot of technical and literary words which I only know from writing, but that doesn't mean they aren't English. kwami (talk) 07:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: usercontributions.py

First of all thank you for the wonderful bot Hillgentleman.

I have a question.

Is there anyway with your bot or with any python bot to extract all of the editor's individual, full EDITS, not just all of the edit summary and time stamp?

For example, if I were to write:

"hello world" on the page, and type:

"this is a minor edit" in the edit summary,

....would I be able to see both the "hello world" AND "this is a minor edit" with a bot?

Thanks.

Rumpsenate (talk) 04:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

East Asian Calligraphy

Hillgentleman, I'm currently engaged in a discussion with user Asoer on whether East Asian Calligraphy is "calligraphy" or not. You've contributed to discussions on East Asian Calligraphy before, so I wonder if you could have a look in. [1]

Bathrobe (talk) 05:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hillgentleman, if I'm not mistaken, you practice or have practiced calligraphy. Did you have a teacher, and if so who was your teacher? What kind of materials (books, videos, essays etc.) have you read concerning calligraphy? Are there any that discuss whether 書法 is an art? Thanks. Asoer (talk) 21:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

As usual, I studied at the local community centres. Most of my teachers were amateurs but one was a professional. One was an art designer and the others are school teachers. As usual, we used 字帖 to 臨模. Please define what is art. Hillgentleman (talk) 04:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Novels December 2009 Newsletter

The December 2009 issue of the Novels WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Alan16 (talk) 15:54, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

East Asian calligraphy

Hello, I expanded noticeably this article. I also create a section "Chinese_calligraphy#Influences", where you knowledge is welcome to write down shortly the specifics of Japanese calligraphy. Yug (talk) 11:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

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• It's so natural for one to look at something he doesn't understand and immediately come to the conclusion that it is useless. Hillgentleman (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

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