User talk:Kala Bethere

Transcendental Classification

Meditation Name	Type	Includes	Price
Transcendental meditation (TM)	Basic mantra	Basic instruction over 4 days and followup	1500 USD + materials for religious puja
Sahaj Samadhi	Basic mantra plus advanced technique	Basic instruction, TM advanced technique and followup	350 USD, if discounted, 175, sliding scale + materials for religious puja
Primordial Sound Meditation (Chopra)	Basic mantra	Basic instructions over 3 days	375 USD
I AM Meditation (Amma)	Basic mantra	Basic instruction, free repeats, free recharge of mantra	"Free as a service to society"
Shambhala I Meditation	Breath and attentional training	Weekend course or free teaching at centers. Includes food.	125 USD for weekend course, Free if taught at center or instructor's home
Vipassana (Goenka)	Focussed meditation, Open Presence meditation, various skills	10 day course with meals and lodging	Free or donation
Scientists Week-long Course	Focussed meditation, Open Presence meditation, various skills	7 day course for scientists in retreat setting.	$375 includes lodging and meals.
NSR Meditation (Natural Stress Relief)	Using a mantra to transcend thinking and experience pure consciousness	Self-instruction from manual: two lessons a day for three days	$47 USD for manual and 4 prepaid email consultations

MVAH

I think you may have placed a comment in different section than you intended,[1] which is easy to do. Perhaps it belongs better at the end of "MEDRS example", where we discuss a review? I have a response, but I first wanted to check with you about which thread it should go in. Will Beback talk 21:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right Will. Sorry about that. I'm still getting used to editing.--Kala Bethere (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Private Workspace for Compiling Study list

This section is for user Kala Bethere to work on a table of acceptable papers. Please do not edit, but feel free to leave suggestions in the section below.

Study or Paper name	Independent?	Reasons/Other
Osment, Noel (June 9, 1984). "Power of TM". The San Diego Union: p. A-21.		Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
McCabe, Carol (August 18, 1989). "It might not fly at the '92 Olympics, but yogic competitors had a field day". Journal-Bulletin Providence Journal (Providence, R.I.)		Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
Pearson, Craig (2008). The Complete Book of Yogic Flying. Maharishi University of Management Press. p. 546.	NOT Independent	Author prominent TM org affiliate, self-published
"What is Yogic Flying?". permanentpeace.org. Retrieved December 30, 2009.	NOT Independent	TM Movement website
"A Lift for lives of stress". Times Herald. August 15, 1986.		Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
Associated Press (July 9, 1986). "And awaaaaaaaay we go".		Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
Dawson, Victoria (July 10, 1986). "At the Hop: The Flying Yogis' Olympiad". Washington Post.	r	Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
Maharishi's Programme to Create World Peace. Age of Enlightenment Press. 1987. p. 1. ISBN 0891860525, 978-0891860525.	NOT Independent	Self-published b, Author affiliated with TM Org
"Yogis Say They're a Hop, Skip and Jump From Flying". Los Angeles Times. July 10 1986.	row 8, cell 2	Low quality source, Lacks Notability for Fringe claims, undue weight to minority views
Travis, Frederick T.; David W. Orme-Johnson (1990). "EEG Coherence and Power During Yogic Flying". International Journal of Neuroscience 54 (1): 1. doi:10.3109/00207459008986616. ISSN 0020-7454. Retrieved 2009-12-31.	NOT Independent	MUM affiliated profs.
Orme-Johnson, D. W., et al.,"Longitudinal effects of the TM-Sidhi program on EEG phase coherence", in Chalmers, R.A., et al., eds., Scientific Research on Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program: Collected Papers, vol. 3, Maharishi Vedic University Press (1989) pp. 1678–1686	NOT Independent	MUM/MIU affiliation
Wallace, R.Keith; Paul J. Mills, David W. Orme-Johnson, Michael C. Dillbeck, Eliha Jacobe (1983-01). "Modification of the paired H reflex through the transcendental meditation and TM-Sidhi program". Experimental Neurology 79 (1): 77-86. doi:10.1016/0014-4886(83)90379-5. Retrieved 2009-12-31.	NOT Independent	Former MIU President, MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Werner, OR; RK Wallace, B Charles, G Janssen, T Stryker, RA Chalmers (1986-01-01). "Long-term endocrinologic changes in subjects practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program". Psychosomatic Medicine 48 (1): 59-66. Retrieved 2009-12-31.	NOT Independent	Former MIU President, MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Orme-Johnson, David W.; Christopher T. Haynes (1981). "EEG - Phase Coherence, Pure Consciousness, Creativity, and TM—Sidhi Experiences". International Journal of Neuroscience 13 (4): 211. doi:10.3109/00207458108985804. ISSN 0020-7454. Retrieved 2009-12-31.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Hatchard, G. D., Deans, A. J., Cavanaugh, K. L., & Orme-Johnson, D. W. (1996) The Maharishi Effect: A model for social improvement. Time series analysis of a phase transition to reduced crime in Merseyside metropolitan area. Psychology, Crime and Law, 2(3), 165–174.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM/MSAE profs and affiliates
Global Good News Service, Global Country of World Peace (January 9, 2008). "Maharishi inspires the creation of perpetual memorials of invincibility". Press release.	NOT Independent	Self-published, Org Press release
19 January 2005 Press Conference Highlights". Global Good News. January 19, 2005. Retrieved January 6, 2010.	NOT Independent	Self-published, Org Press release
Orme-Johnson, David; Oates, Robert (Fall 2008). "A Field-Theoretic View of Consciousness: Reply to Critics". Journal of Scientific Exploration 22 (3): 139-66.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Alexander, Charles; Orme-Johnson, David (1986). "Reducing Conflict and Enhancing the Quality of Life in Israel Using the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program: Explanation of a Social Research Project". Cultic Studies Journal 3 (1): 142-146.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Deutsche Nachrichten Agentur (2008/01/24). "Howard Settle: "Yogic Flyers, Create Invincible America today"". Press release. Retrieved Decenber 31, 2009.	NOT Independent	Self-published, Org Press release
Orme-Johnson, David; Alexander, Charles N.; Davies, John L. (1990). "The Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field". Journal of Conflict Resolution 34 (4): 756-768.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Orme-Johnson, David; Alexander, Charles N.; Davies, John L. (1990). "International Peace Project in the Middle East". Journal of Conflict Resolution 32 (4): 776-812.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Hagelin, John S.; Maxwell V. Rainforth, Kenneth L. C. Cavanaugh, Charles N. Alexander, Susan F. Shatkin, John L. Davies, Anne O. Hughes, Emanuel Ross, David W. Orme-Johnson (1999-06-01). "Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, D.C.: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June--July 1993". Social Indicators Research 47 (2): 153-201. doi:10.1023/A:1006978911496. Retrieved 2009-12-29.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Rainforth, Maxwell. "A Rebuttal to "Voodoo Science". Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy, Maharishi University of Management. Retrieved January 2, 2010.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates
Natural Law Party of the United Kingdom (April 25, 1996). "British study shows Transcendental Meditation is a proven and cost-effective way to reduce crime". Press release.	NOT Independent	Org-based press release
"Maharishi Effect Published Articles", Maharishi University of Management website	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and affiliates; self-published
Dillbeck, M. C., Cavanaugh, K. L., Glenn, T., Orme-Johnson, D. W., & Mittlefehldt, V. (1987). Consciousness as a field: The Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program and changes in social indicators. Journal of Mind and Behavior, 8(1), 67–104.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Assimakis, P. D.; Dillbeck, M. C. (1995). "Time series analysis of improved quality of life in Canada: Social change, collective consciousness, and the TM-Sidhi program.". Psychological Reports 76: 1171–1193.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
"Meditators Fly for Peace" Press Release (July 25, 2007)	NOT Independent	Org-based press release, self-published
Seven Invincible Countries" Global Good News	NOT Independent	Org-based press release, self-published
"Invincible America Assembly Nears Goal of 2500 Participants" Press Release (February 2008)	NOT Independent	Org-based press release, self-published
PLEASE LEAVE OTHER BLANK CELLS IN PLACE. Thanks :-)

Private Workspace for Compiling Study list (discussion/suggestions)

If you'd like to share ideas on the above table, please add those comments here:

Here's how you proceed

To answer your question on how to proceed, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Littleolive_oil_reported_by_User:Fladrif_.28Result:_.29 Fladrif (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Fladrif, that's very helpful to know. A keeper. :-) --Kala Bethere (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

K., thanks for compiling that list of sources. It makes the matter easier to follow and the decisions easier to settle. I agree that there are systemic problems with the articles in this topic. It looks like a further step in dispute resolution may be necessary, such as an WP:RFC/U. It best to go into these processes with clean hands. Thanks also for being patient and civil with other editors. Will Beback talk 14:01, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I'm afraid with orgs like the TM Org, it appears all of the TM-related entries are plagued by TM true believers who simply collude to create a faux-consensus, effectively blocking any edits but their own. Edit war or a collusion of quiet consensus, whatever you'd like to call it, I cannot see it being likely "outsiders" improve these articles with such interference from entrenched edit warriors.--Kala Bethere (talk) 19:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please forgive me, but what and who are "TM true believers"? Are they a class of Wiki editors? --BwB (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, I was hoping you could tell me that. How long have you been here BwB?--Kala Bethere (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kala, the best way to deal with edit warriors is to avoid becoming one yourself. While the results may not be apparent as quickly, taking the high road is most effective in the long term. Will Beback talk 20:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The high road"? --BwB (talk) 21:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well I certainly agree with that. I'd rather apply simple common sense in seeing the entries align (in this/these cases) with the applicable rules for independent sourcing. It may also be helpful to consider the ramifications and place of pseudoscience in entry creation. If an article relies strongly on pseudoscience and Vedism (Neo-vedism?), should that not be marked in the categories listed at the page bottom?

A valuable exercise may to be to slowly compile all the WP:FRINGE non-compliant entries, esp. in regards to scientific and pseudoscientific entries, and then see if you can compile a list of the the editors who put them there and see if they are still part of the active editing process on TM-related entries. If it's the same people over and over again, that could be perceived as a deliberate form of editing abuse, no?

What do you do when that happens? Is there a simple way to find original authors of Reference sources?

The upside of all of this even though the non-independent sources would have to go, even an independent review would list many, if not most of the classic TM scientific studies. Thus collaboration could help create a "best of TM research", highlighting their finest attempts, counterbalanced with independent commentaries.--Kala Bethere (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your suggestion of compiling lists of sources is good. There are so many sources, but most of them have common factors. Listings make those common factors easier to see. It's relatively easy to see who added (or deleted) material in an article. If you look at the article's editing history there's a link near the top for " Revision history search". It's pretty self-explanatory. If you're just looking for who added something then the "interpolated" setting will run much faster, but it doesn't work for deletions or additions and deletions.

You're correct that independent secondary sources will tend to include the best, or most important research, which is why we should base the articles on those.

I see you don't have email activated. I can send you some other materials via mail if you send me an email first. Will Beback talk 21:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's activated finally. Please send what you'd like to share.

Thanks In Advance.--Kala Bethere (talk) 01:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I saw you wrote "So far the search engine of WP alludes my understanding". My explanation above was probably incomplete. Is there any special problem you're having? Will Beback talk 01:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pseudoscience Definitions

(Emphases, mine)

"Pseudoscience generally proposes changes in basic scientific laws or reality in order to allow some phenomenon which the supporters want to believe occurs, but lack the strong scientific evidence that would justify such major changes. Pseudoscience usually relies mainly on weak evidence, such as anecdotal evidence or weak statistical evidence at just above the level of detection, though it may have a few papers with positive results..." [2]

Pseudoscience entries, by definition are not real science, so therefore must be described according to WP guidelines:

"Pseudoscience and related fringe theories

Further information: WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE Pseudoscientific theories are claimed to be science, however, they lack scientific status by use of an inappropriate methodology or lack of objective evidence. Conversely, scientific consensus is by its very nature the majority viewpoint of scientists towards a topic. Thus, when talking about pseudoscientific topics, we should not describe these two opposing viewpoints as being equal to each other. While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description of the main views. Any mention should be proportionate, representing the scientific view as the majority view and the pseudoscientific view as the minority view, including explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all part of describing differing views fairly."--Kala Bethere (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

COIN

The matter, as Will said, has been discussed on at least five different threads at the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard. And, I'm as shocked as you that nothing whatsoever has been done to enforce the COI rules on the TM-related article. You'll see, if you peruse these, including the links to the prior discussions, that three editors have acknowledged being employees of various TM-Movement Entities. This one will provide you with most background, as well as links to earlier COIN discussions.[3]. This one is the most recent. [4] Then there is the issue of Meatpuppets/Sockpuppets, anonymous or otherwise, which is another problem altogether. [5]Fladrif (talk) 17:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section is for user Kala Bethere to work on a table of acceptable papers. Please do not edit, but feel free to leave suggestions in the section below.

List of Current Refs which Violate WP:FRINGE for TM

Discuss below please

A list of current scientific papers which violate the WP:FRINGE in the entry Transcendental Meditation.

Some guidelines in removal and editing from WP: FRINGE (emphases, mine)

"Proponents of fringe theories have in the past used Wikipedia as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventors or promoters of that theory, then various "What Wikipedia is not" rules come into play. Wikipedia is neither a publisher of original thought nor a soapbox for self-promotion and advertising."

Independent sources
"While fringe theory proponents are excellent sources for describing what they believe, the best sources to use when determining the notability and prominence of fringe theories are independent sources. In particular, the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of the independent sources. If independent sources only comment on the major points of a fringe theory, an article that devotes the majority of its space to minor points that independent sources do not cover in detail may be unbalanced. "

"Peer review is an important feature of reliable sources that discuss scientific, historical or other academic ideas, but it is not the same as acceptance."

Ideas that are of borderline or minimal notability may be mentioned in Wikipedia, but should not be given undue weight. Wikipedia is not a forum for presenting new ideas, for countering any systemic bias in institutions such as academia, or for otherwise promoting ideas which have failed to merit attention elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs. Fringe theories may be excluded from articles about scientific topics when the scientific community has ignored the ideas.

"Note that fringe journals exist, some of which claim peer review. Only a very few of these actually have any meaningful peer review outside of promoters of the fringe theories, and should generally be considered unreliable.

Papers are listed by relative appearance in the entry. May not include all non-compliant citations. "Other" non-compliant magazine articles, etc. to be listed separately.

Study or Paper name	Independent?	Reasons/Other
Morris, Bevan (1992). "Maharishi’s Vedic Science and Technology: The Only Means to Create World Peace". Journal of Modern Science and Vedic Science 5 (1–2): 200.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM president, profs and/or affiliates
Travis, Frederick; Chawkin, Ken (Sept-Oct, 2003). New Life magazine.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Travis F, Haaga DA, Hagelin JS, Tanner M, Nidich S, Gaylord-King C et al. Effects of Transcendental Meditation practice on brain functioning and stress reactivity in college students. International Journal of Psychophysiology 2009 71(2):170-176	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Travis, Frederick; Chawkin, Ken (Sept-Oct, 2003). "Meditation Can Change The World". New Life magazine.	NOT Independent
Schneider, R.H. et al., "A randomized controlled trial of stress reduction for hypertension in older African Americans", Hypertension 26: 820–827, 1995	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Wallace, R.K. et al. "The effects of the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program on the aging process", International Journal of Neuroscience 16: 53–58, 1982	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Orme-Johnson, D.W. and Herron, R.E., "An innovative approach to reducing medical care utilization and expenditures", The American Journal of Managed Care 3: 135–144, 1997	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Alexander, C.N. et al., "Treating and preventing alcohol, nicotine, and drug abuse through Transcendental Meditation: A review and statistical meta-analysis", Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 11: 13–87, 1994	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Wallace RK. Physiological effects of Transcendental Meditation. Science 1970;167:1751–1754	NOT Independent
Wallace RK, Benson H, Wilson AF. A wakeful hypometabolic physiologic state. American Journal of Physiology 1971;221:795-799	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Wallace RK. The Physiology of Meditation. Scientific American 1972;226:84-90.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Dillbeck, M.C., and D.W. Orme-Johnson: 1987, "Physiological differences between Transcendental Meditation and rest", American Psychologist 42, pp. 879-881	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Travis, F.T. & Wallace, R.K. (1999). EEG and Autonomic Patterns during Eyes-Closed Rest and Transcendental Meditation Practice: The Basis for a Neural Model of TM practice. Consciousness and Cognition, 8, 302-318	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
A Randomized Controlled Trial of Stress Reduction for Hypertension in Older African Americans, Robert H. Schneider et al., Hypertension, 1995, 26: 820-827	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Stroke. 2000 Mar;31(3):568-73.		Author names missing, needs verification
David W. Orme-Johnson, Vernon A. Barnes, Alex M. Hankey, and Roger A. Chalmers, "Reply to critics of research on Transcendental Meditation in the prevention and control of hypertension," Journal of Hypertension 2005, 23:1107–1110	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Schneider RH et al.. "Long-Term Effects of Stress Reduction on Mortality in Persons >55 Years of Age With Systemic Hypertension" (PDF). Retrieved 2006-09-12.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Schneider RH et al.. "A randomized controlled trial of stress reduction in African Americans treated for hypertension for over one year". Retrieved 2006-09-12.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Effects of a Randomized Controlled Trial of Transcendental Meditation on Components of the Metabolic Syndrome in Subjects With Coronary Heart Disease, Archives of Internal Medicine, Maura Paul-Labrador et al.,, Vol. 166 No. 11, June 12, 2006	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Orme-Johnson DW, Schneider RH, Son YD, Nidich S, Cho ZH (2006). "Neuroimaging of meditation's effect on brain reactivity to pain.". Neuroreport 17 (12): 1359–63. doi:10.1097/01.wnr.0000233094.67289.a8. PMID 16951585. PMC PMC2170475.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
VOLUME 21 NUMBER 3 \| AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HYPERTENSION, pp. 310-316	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates; financial ties
Anderson, p. 313	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates: financial ties
Integrative Cancer Therapies (Vol. 8, No. 3: September 2009)		Author names missing, needs verification
Nidich, S.I. and Nidich, R.J. Increased academic achievement at Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment: A replication study. Education 109: 302–304, 1989.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Intelligence (September/October 2001), Vol. 29/5, pp. 419-440		Author names missing, needs verification
Eppley K, Abrams A, Shear J. Differential effects of relaxation techniques on trait anxiety: a meta-analysis. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 1989, 45: 957-74	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
SI Nidich, MV Rainforth, DAF Haaga, J Hagelin, JW Salerno, F Travis, M Tanner, C Gaylord-King, S Grosswald, and RH Schneider. A randomized controlled trial on effects of the Transcendental Meditation program on blood pressure, psychological distress, and coping in young adults. American Journal of Hypertension. 2009, Vol 22(12):1326-1331. doi:10.1038/ajh.2009.184.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Mason LI, Alexander CN, Travis FT, Marsh G, Orme-Johnson DW, Gackenbach J, Mason DC, Rainforth M, Walton KG. "Electrophysiological correlates of higher states of consciousness during sleep in long-term practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation program." Sleep. 1997 Feb;20(2):102-10.	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Travis, F. T., Tecce, J., Arenander, A., & Wallace, R. K. (2002), Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. Biological Psychology, 61, 293-319	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Travis, F., Arenander, A., & DuBois, D. (2004). Psychological and physiological characteristics of a proposed object-referral/self-referral continuum of self-awareness. Consciousness and Cognition, 13, 401-420	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates
Wallace 1993, pp. 64-66	NOT Independent	MIU/MUM profs and/or affiliates

Non-Compliant Refs for TM entry

Comments

Kala your constant comments about COI constitute harassment, are uncivil, and violate WP:NPA. If you have something to say take it the COI Notice Board. Thanks (olive (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

And this statement [6] is a personal attack on multiple editors, is uncivil, and again you are harassing editors.(olive (talk) 23:10, 24 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Hi Olive. They're just links to past WP activities and were not intended as attacks, but information to help admins working to clean up these entries and the issues involved. Cheers.--Kala Bethere (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Outing

Comments like this violate WP:OUTING and may lead to your being blocked, please be more cautious in the future. Dreadstar ☥ 01:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since it was already admitted here on WP, I didn't see a problem. It's not my fault the user has mentioned it!--Kala Bethere (talk) 13:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is a problem. Even if an editor had previously posted the information on Wikipedia and then removed, deleted, or had it oversighted, you ~~cannot~~ should not refer to that previous posting of personal information. We've had several cases on this, and even if the person's personal information is in the edit history, it ~~cannot~~ should not be linked to or referred to. Dreadstar ☥ 19:13, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that is incorrect. "Per WP:Outing, outing has not occurred if an editor has previously voluntarily self-identified his or her country, language, nationality, or other personal information. Subsequent posting of that information by other users does not constitute outing. If a user has redacted that information, their wishes should be respected." Wikipedia:ARBMAC2#Final_decision It's polite to respect those wishes, but mentioning self-disclosed information is not outing and is not grounds for blocking. Will Beback talk 23:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification, you are correct; however I think it it is more than merely polite to respect those wishes - even if it doesn't lead to being blocked. I've changed my posting above to reflect that. I still think it's a problem and don't think editors should be engaging in such behavior, especially when editors have been harassed in real life because they mistakenly posted personal information when they first started editing Wikipedia and didn't realize the potential dangers involved. There are other avenues to address potential WP:COI than repeating redacted personal information. Dreadstar ☥ 23:51, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's say I extensively edit an article on Amalgamated Widgets. I disclose that I work in their publicity department, but after doing so I am accused of having a COI, so I redact that disclosure. Does the COI problem disappear with that deletion? No. If someone wants to avoid charges of COI then they should modify their behavior, not hide the source of their conflict. Since Olive has chosen to continue to work on articles in a topic where she has a previously disclosed a conflict of interest, that information continues to be relevant to evaluating her editing. Will Beback talk 00:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will. I suggest you stop making comment that discredit an editor. I did not hide my edits. I asked if I could have them Oversighted because I was experiencing off Wikipedia harassment, and you know that. Your comments here and on the COIN which attempt to make me look dishonest are troubling, and actually I thought better of you. Tossing around information that an editor has asked to have Oversighted to protect herself and her family and advising another editor this its fine to use that information is not right in anyway.(olive (talk) 00:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

This could all be solved if editors connected to the TM movement avoided editing articles where they have a conflict of interest, as is strongly suggested by [WP:COI]]. Failing that, they should at least make disclosures of their connections. Hiding that involvement is the wrong direction to take. Having your edits oversighted is exactly hiding your edits. I am sorry to hear that you say that you've received harassing phone calls, but I haven't heard that they were directly connected to Wikipedia. How do you know they were due to your previous self-disclosure here? Will Beback talk 00:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since you view my personal information with such an obvious lack of respect, and since you insist on implying less than honest behaviour I really have no desire to say anything else to you. And as in the past I am and always have been a neutral editor.(olive (talk) 01:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

I don't know anything about you that you haven't disclosed here, and no personal information has been discussed here. An incident of harassment is not an entitlement to ignore WP:COI. Will Beback talk 01:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't ask for entitlement, I asked for respect. And not wanting to reveal personal information to those editors who harass is an integral aspect of the policy WP:COI. You were asking me to explain the off- Wikipedia harassment. I told you I will not discuss anything further given the accusations you have made today. Given the environment I've dealt with in the last week, I feel no compunction to say anything to anybody. Per WP:COI: "Wikipedians must be careful not to reveal the identity of other editors. Wikipedia's policy against harassment takes precedence over this guideline on conflict of interest.(olive (talk) 04:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

If you stop editing TM-related articles then there's no reason your COI would come up again. If you continue to do so then it's inevitable that it will keep coming up. If you don't want to talk about the harassment then don't mention it again. Will Beback talk 05:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The next move is always in my hands. What COI? So let's see. Stop editing TM articles or I will continue to be harassed with COI accusations that are also attempts to induce me to reveal my personal information under the guise of, its important to find the “source” of a COI? A telling post.(olive (talk) 05:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

The COI exists whether you reveal it or not. You voluntarily disclosed, which is the right thing to do, but now you don't want people to know about that COI any more. So yes, the answer is to avoid COI editing. You have not been editing neutrally, and having a hidden COI on articles you actively edit is incompatible with Wikipedia guidelines. Will Beback talk 05:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't even begin to tell me what is the right thing to do, considering what I have seen in the last week, don't tell me what I do and don't want people to know, and do not tell me I am not a neutral editor. You are ignorant of my circumstances.(olive (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

I don't know what you've seen in the past week. Could you explain? As for being neutral, you keep calling yourself a neutral editor so it's a fair comment to dispute that claim. Your circumstances don't really matter, your editing does. A number of editors have given you guidance over the years, but you've rebuffed all attempts at helping and have treated dispute resolution efforts as harassment. I'm sorry that it's turned out this way, and I hope you stick around to edit articles unrelated to TM. Will Beback talk 06:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Well it maybe polite to avoid mentioning who a person works for. In this instance the issue of COI is of greater concern. As Deadstar admits that no WP:OUTING has occured maybe he should also strike out these accusations.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While clearly Little Olive Oil deserves her respect and privacy, something's going down here and has been for a long time. It's well known on the street by people who follow these entries. And something needs to be done to prevent it from happening in the future. I'm a newbie here, so I have no clue as to the way WP Admin handles such things. Maybe it's time to get Jimbo on the bat phone? But something does need to be done rather than just arguing about it. The solution is in the hands of the Admin, not endless talk page comments.--Kala Bethere (talk) 12:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We only use the bat-phone in emergencies. The Admin is working on this. ;) Will Beback talk 13:53, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My position clearly stated multiple times is to look at the edits not the editor. In addition my position in editing per WP:COI is not "contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups. Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia."

In this discussion I have serious concerns about the comments leveled at me and they include:

A complete discounting of a personal concern that my real life information be respected with reframing, and the comment, that "An incident of harassment is not an entitlement to ignore WP:COI."
The perception stated as fact that, in asking that my personal real life information be removed my intent was to "hide" my COI, and the assumption again stated as fact I don't want my real life information known anymore...
The reframing of this discussion which began as an attempts to get me to reveal a COI, but now suddenly, "my circumstances" are no longer imortant, but now my edits are...
The implication that I will be harassed until I stop editing TM related articles
The implication that decisions have already been made concerning my editing, "I'm sorry it has turned out this way", and "I hope you'll stick around".
Giving more support to the position that I was implicated in wrongdoing on the COIN when in fact I have never been shown to have a COI.

This kind of behviour on the part of another editor is alarming, but in an admin. especially so, and it is critical that such behavioiurs be examined closley in whatever forum that is suitable. Bullying and harassment in attempts to force an editor to admit to some Wikipedia wrong doing is unconscionable.(olive (talk) 16:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Pot, Kettle, Black

Kala . You are, and have been making personal attacks, violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV [7] [8]. This needs to stop. Thanks.(olive (talk) 22:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Olive, if accusing people of deception or spreading untruths is a personal attack, then you've engaged in similar behavior recently.[9] I suggest that both of you avoid making personal comments of any kind. If accusations of inappropriate behavior are necessary, then there better venues for that, such as WP:RFC/U or WP:RFAR. Will Beback talk 22:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Take your false accusations and attacks elsewhere Littleolive Oil. Are you saying you haven't been one of the people who've been adding WP Non-compliant references to the TM entries? These aren't personal attacks, they're simple facts! I've even seen you make horrible accusations previously to other editors for removing (and thus trying to improve) the TM-related entries, when they were in fact, correct for what they were doing.

Also, since you do not want me to post on your own Talk Page, I think it would be common sense that this would be reciprocal, at least until an apology is forthcoming from you.--Kala Bethere (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Littleolive Oil, you might find WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT helpful. If I can help explain any points that might be unclear, you can feel free to post questions here. We all have our blind sides and maybe talking to someone could be helpful.--Kala Bethere (talk) 23:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration notice

You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Transcendental Meditation movement and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

Thanks, -- — Kbob • Talk • 02:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Dougweller (talk) 11:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sockpuppet investigation started by Kbob closed when found to be unquestionably Unrelated.

Please note: You have been named in a formalized SPI case [10]-- — Kbob • Talk • 06:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have been accused of sockpuppetry here: [11]Please make yourself familiar with the guidelines for defending yourself here: [12] Thanks,-- — Kbob • Talk • 02:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi KBob. I'm not a sockpuppet. I just post as Kala Bethere, not as any other user. All posts in my username are from me and me alone. I feel I am able to say what I need to without resorting to such childish behaviors. Cheers.--Kala Bethere (talk) 16:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kala, you are free to respond on the ArbCom page in any way that you see fit however please abide by the style guidelines and create your own section as indicated by this text which appears in bold at the top of the ArbCom Evidence page after you click on Edit This Page. Thanks.

Advice for editing Wikipedia:Requests for Arbitration ---Comment only in your own section please. If you wish to respond to a statement or remark by another editor, add to the bottom of your own section the code; Response to Example : Your response here.

-- — Kbob • Talk • 17:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to tell you the same thing. I've gone ahead and moved your edit to a new section all your own. Dougweller (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dougweller.--Kala Bethere (talk) 18:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User Kbob's accusations were found to be unfounded and the alleged "socks" unrelated in any way by two Checkusers. "* I agree that the users are unquestionably Unrelated.Brandon (talk) 03:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This case has been marked as closed. It will shortly be archived automatically.

"... was the conclusion of the final Checkuser.--Kala Bethere (talk) 12:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement/Evidence

Hello Kala. Your evidence on the above page stands at over 1300 words. The limit is 1000. Please refactor it within the next 24 hours or a clerk will do it for you. Regards, Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 17:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:Kala Bethere/tm-evidence

Hello Kala. As you were still over the word limit by 200 words, I've refactored your evidence down and put the bit I've taken out to User:Kala Bethere/tm-evidence. I've linked to it from your evidence. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 22:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how to count all these words. Your Help isn't very helpful! How about including how to do that in your requests Ryan? I trimmed it again, but still have no idea how many words are there.--Kala Bethere (talk) 01:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cut and paste your text into a Word document. There a "word count" function in MS Word, so you can see the number of words. --BwB (talk) 15:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:WTA

You might not have have ever seen WP:WTA. (There are more guideliens on Wikipedia than anyone can keep track of.) Anyway, the word "claim" should only be used in regard to mining. Neutral words like "said", "wrote", or "asserted" are better. Will Beback talk 20:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Will, that's very helpful to know.--Kala Bethere (talk) 21:53, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Vandalism"

The term "vandalism" has a narrow meaning on Wikipedia, and using it loosely reflect more poorly on you than on the purported "vandals". Per WP:VANDAL, vandalism only occurs when there's no good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia even if the result falls far short. In the case of those MVAH studies, I'm sure whoever added them thought they were doing a good thing. I suggest you rephrase your posting. Will Beback talk 18:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Will. It was my understanding vandalism refers to a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia.

So when there was a discussion, among the current editors of the TM-related entries, and it was made clear that the very large number of the types of TM org created references were unsuitable as non-indepdendent and primary sources both in regards to WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS, I thought it was understood that once these bad sources were removed, they shouldn't just be put back again as if they hadn't heard the advice we had received or the consensus we had. We even had a physician-editor come and give the same advice. At what point after removal and replacement does it become vandalism? This has clearly been discussed several times in just the brief time I've been here, noticeboards have given the same advice and experts in the medical field, but nonetheless, the TM Org sources keep being "replaced", often by people with an admitted connection to a TM organization.

I'd like to assume good faith as much as anyone Will, but I'd be being dishonest with what I've seen transpire on these TM-related entries.

I should know, I removed many of them - and now they're back again! Would tendentious editing be a better phrase? I'd like to be fair to what's really going here, but I also cannot ignore willful replacement of these references, many written by or with key TM-org personnel. Given the in-depth discussion I fail to see how this could not be anything but a "deliberate attempt". How many times does it have to be discussed, explained and advice given before such deliberate replacement constitutes 'a deliberate attempt to compromise integrity'?--Kala Bethere (talk) 19:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even after you've seen evidence to the contrary, it's still best to assume good faith. That doesn't mean you shouldn't work to make sure those "good faith" contributions actually comply with Wikipedia standards. It's just that labeling them "vandalism" serves no purpose and using that inaccurate description makes uninvolved editors roll their eyes. Will Beback talk 19:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point. While the actions described above would constitute a type of vandalism, they would not constitute what is generally termed on the WP vandalism.

These seem to be more issues of Bias and Disruptive/Tendentious Editing. WP:DISRUPT and WP:ICANTHEARYOU seem to describe what I've witnessed. I appreciate you taking the time to help clarify my understanding, thanks.--Kala Bethere (talk) 21:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rainbow body

Rainbow body may include burning the body.转载光明大圆满行者的死亡方式虹化與火光三味 Nature following and the Tao (talk) 15:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, this is not the case in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. There are roughly 3 ways it occurs in Dzogchen, and the style of Rainbow Body in the Inner Tantras is actually not an actual "Rainbow Body", more of a misnomer. You are referring to a completely different process.--Kala Bethere (talk) 16:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cambridge book

Hi, Kala. Your misrepresentation of this book suggests that you haven't seen the actual source. You can view the pages by finding the book in Amazon and using the "Search Inside this Book" feature, as you probably know. And you can use screen capture to make images of the pages to use for future reference. TimidGuy (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Timidguy. I have a current copy of the entire work, thanks.--Kala Bethere (talk) 11:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:TALK

Hi, Kala. Will has edited your heading which named me and accused me of tendentious editing. Note that WP:TALK disallows naming other editors in a heading. "Never address other users in a heading." Thank you. TimidGuy (talk) 11:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental Meditation movement

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:

All editors who are party to this case are instructed to read the principles, to review their own past conduct in the light of them, and if necessary to modify their future conduct to ensure full compliance with them.
Editors are reminded that when editing in controversial subject areas it is all the more important to comply with Wikipedia policies. In addition, editors who find it difficult to edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and to adhere to other Wikipedia policies are counselled that they may sometimes need or wish to step away temporarily from that article or subject area, and to find other related but less controversial topics in which to edit.
Any uninvolved administrator may, in his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor editing Transcendental meditation or other articles concerning Transcendental meditation and related biographies of living people, broadly defined, if, after a warning, that editor repeatedly or seriously violates the behavioural standards or editorial processes of Wikipedia in connection with these articles.
Uninvolved administrators are invited to monitor the articles in the area of conflict to enforce compliance by editors with, in particular, the principles outlined in this case. Enforcing administrators are instructed to focus on fresh and clear-cut matters arising after the closure of this case rather than on revisiting historical allegations.
From time to time, the conduct of editors within the topic may be re-appraised by any member of the Arbitration Committee and, by motion of the Arbitration Committee, further remedies may be summarily applied to specific editors who have failed to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner.
User:Fladrif is (i) strongly admonished for incivility, personal attacks, and assumptions of bad faith; and (ii) subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After three blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month.
Should any user subject to a restriction or topic ban in this case violate that restriction or ban, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year, with the topic ban clock restarting at the end of the block.

For and on behalf of the Arbitration Committee Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss this

Discussion at Arb Talk

Courtesy notice: There is a discussion at the Arbitration Committee talk page concerning evidence pages created by participants in the TM ArbCom. The outcome of the discussion may impact your user page content (sandboxes) from that case. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute resolution survey

Dispute Resolution – Survey Invite

Hello Kala Bethere. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Wikipedia, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released.

Please click HERE to participate.
Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts.

You are receiving this invitation because you have had some activity in dispute resolution over the past year. For more information, please see the associated research page. Steven Zhang ^{DR goes to Wikimania!} 01:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification motion

A case (Transcendental Meditation movement) in which you were involved has been modified by motion which changed the wording of the discretionary sanctions section to clarify that the scope applies to pages, not just articles. For the arbitration committee --S Philbrick (Talk) 20:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion of Agni dhatu samadhi

The article Agni dhatu samadhi has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Not notable, does not cite any rs

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. dudhhr_Contribs 20:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]