User talk:RevelationDirect/Archive 2017

2017

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Speedy deletion nomination of Trinitas Hospital

Hello RevelationDirect,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Trinitas Hospital for deletion, because it seems to be copied from another source, probably infringing copyright.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to rewrite it in your own words, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions.

Mduvekot (talk) 03:01, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@Mduvekot: I originally just created a redirect page; your substantive concerns are with edits made by User talk:12.26.42.2 so I copied your notice there. I did make a response in the AFD, specifically that I favored going back to that original redirect if the nomination succeeds. Thanks for the notice! RevelationDirect (talk) 03:29, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that RevelationDirect. It's a bug feature in the new page review tool that it notifies the original creator (of the redirect), not the editor who turned a redirect into an article. Thanks for passing on the notification. Mduvekot (talk) 03:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Film categories

Categories by nation are non-diffusing, as noted at the top of Category:American films and Category:British films. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that! RevelationDirect (talk) 15:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Splitting out musical groups by number cats

I have nominated several specific categories today and yesterday (see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 October 4#Category:Musical sextets for example) which you may wish to comment on, based on the previous discussion. Mangoe (talk) 14:58, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Premature categories

Please don't recreate Category:2018 television seasons or Category:2018 American television seasons again. The criteria for inclusion is "seasons that have aired at least one episode in 2018" (emphasis added). Since it's not 2018, it's impossible to populate the categories, yet people do because they don't bother checking the inclusion criteria. As a result we get a heap of articles added to a category that they shouldn't be added to, sometimes 8 or 9 months early. This and previous incarnations of the category have been consistently deleted. In fact Category:2018 American television seasons was deleted only two days ago. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Thank you for the feedback, I'm sure people create crazy categories years into the future using WP:CRYSTALBALL, especially when fans are first time editors.I also know you do a lot of great work with cleanup. Let's discuss this a little further:

• Process: The categories were deleted using WP:C1, which is for categories that have been empty at least a week. Since the head category had a dozen articles a few hours ago, I've asked the administrator to restore the categories here. This is more than just a pedantic issue: categories deleted with C1 can be recreated by any editor at any time without discussion as soon articles appear which explains why these categories keep getting recreated over and over.
• Substance: 2018 is two months away, so seasons scheduled to air in January, of which there are a number especially of reality shows, would like be in post-production, if not in the can ready to go. From a practical standpoint, it's certainly possible that an individual season would be canceled (say the reality star kills somebody) or the show will be delayed, although probably not as far out as 2019 so future maintenance with exceptions are possible. But that seems to be less of a maintenance issue than moving every articles from Category:Upcoming television series to Category:2018 television series. (And, if the season were cancelled, as noted above, "upcoming" would be just as wrong as "2018".) I've re-read the WP:TVUP style guide and I don't see a clear category application. These categories to easily pass the standard under the WP:CRYSTAL policy which prohibits content only "if preparation for the event is not already in progress". Most importantly, I think this category will help readers find articles they are interested in the same categories they find other articles in.

You edit TV articles more than me. Did I overlook a different policy/guideline/consensus? How come you don't find these categories useful for navigation? I'm happy to change direction to improve the encyclopedia. RevelationDirect (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, the criteria for inclusion is that episodes have aired in that year, in this case 2018. Since it's still 2017, it's impossible to populate the category until at least 1 January 2018, so it's pointless that the category/ies exist until then. As I said, they have been deleted several times, and this happens each year.

categories deleted with C1 can be recreated by any editor at any time without discussion as soon articles appear - Except that no articles exist that can be added to those categories until 1 January 2018 for the reason I've already stated. For example, Dancing on Ice (series 10), Ex on the Beach (series 8), RuPaul's Drag Race: All Stars (season 3), Singer 2018, The Bachelor (season 22), The Voice Kids (Russia, season 5) and X Factor (Denmark season 11) haven't aired a single episode in 2018 so they don't fit the inclusion criteria for the categories. It's not at all relevant whether programs might be in post-production, the fact remains that they haven't aired a single episode in 2018 so they shouldn't be in the category. What has happened in the past, right up until today, is that editors add the articles to the category and they see it's blue so they think all is OK. When the category is red, at least everyone knows that the article shouldn't be in that category.

But that seems to be less of a maintenance issue than moving every articles from Category:Upcoming television series - Articles still have to be moved from that category, even if the 2018 categories exist.

We did have a discussion about these categories some time ago. The discussion is archived here. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:52, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I took a look at the WikiProject TV discussion you provided from 2014 and I also found a discussion that looks very similar to this one when @BrownHairedGirl: recreated the same category I did. I'm pretty comfortable with my reading of WP:CRYSTAL for the need to be able to navigate to these articles and that matches how well populated Category:2018 is. But, honestly, I'm not so much concerned about "winning" with this particular category as I am making sure we get away from the repetitive cycle where non-empty categories are deleted as empty, later editors find an article that (arguably) fits in the category, recreate the category since it will no longer be empty, and then get the notice above. This doesn't foster collaboration (and it has to be frustrating for you too!)

How do these options sound?:

• Revise the Header: I don't place much importance in headers because they are non-binding and don't show up in HotCat. But, the formal inclusion criteria is important to you and I want to balance your viewpoint. If I recreated the categories and changed the inclusion criteria to "This category is for television seasons that have aired or are scheduled to air at least one episode in 2018" would that alleviate your concern?
• Make Redirects: If we make the next couple years redirects to Category:Upcoming television seasons, users could find them more easily, and you could put a note on the actual redirect asking editors to wait until January to make it a separate category.
• Something Else?: I'm open to other ideas!

If none of those work, let's have @Cyphoidbomb: restore the categories and you can submit a formal WP:CFD nomination. That will give us a more formal consensus going forward. Thanks! RevelationDirect (talk) 16:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: Did any of my proposed compromises above sound worthwhile to you or do we just respectfully disagree on this topic? RevelationDirect (talk) 00:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

This category is for television seasons that have aired or are scheduled to air at least one episode in 2018 - This is how the categories are being treated by some editors now with editors adding articles to the categories 10 months prior to any episodes airing. The wording just begs for WP:CRYSTAL additions.

users could find them more easily, - I don't see the point. If the season is upcoming then it can be added to Category:Upcoming television seasons. These categories are for seasons that are airing episodes already. They shouldn't be redirected to a category with a completely different pupose.

If none of those work, let's have @Cyphoidbomb: restore the categories and you can submit a formal WP:CFD nomination. - Recreating an empty category that can't possibly be populated for two months serves absolutely no useful purpose. The entire point of having WP:CSD#C1 is to avoid the need to go through a formal deletion discussion just to delete an empty category. Practically, restoring the categories makes no sense. By the time the categories were restored and a CfD was started, the categories would only be 2 days from being deleted anyway, and a CfD shouldn't be started for a category that has a valid speedy deletion tag on it. The inclusion criteria are clear. You should never have added the articles to them in the first place because they didn't meet the inclusion criteria. One of the categories that you created had only just been deleted because it was empty. If you had observed and complied with the inclusion criteria then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

	Happy Holidays
	Wishing you a happy holiday season! Times flies and 2018 is around the corner. Thank you for your contributions. ~ K.e.coffman (talk) 00:31, 22 December 2017 (UTC)