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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Jonathunder (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Catalan supremacism

[edit]
Catalan supremacism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Fails WP:NOR. WP:POVFORK of Catalan nationalism, serious WP:NPOV problems. The title of the article itself is hardly used - not WP:COMMONNAME (per a simple google test - 24 hits). Possible WP:COPYVIO issues - as first edit summary states [1] - "Creating article Catalan Supremacism - largely translated from ES Wiki articles" - without stating which articles - which we should note are probably not titled "Catalan supremacism" as there is no interwiki and the use of the plural articles (WP:SYN?). Article has also been tagged as WP:FRINGE by other editors. Icewhiz (talk) 10:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per author's note here - [2] - this was translated from the Spanish wiki [3] (Catalan Race) and [4] (Racism in Spain).Icewhiz (talk) 11:20, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 10:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 10:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Scolaire (talk) 13:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete new article, created because, well, folks in old Hispania are a tad agitated just now. So stuff happens to Wikipedia. Like the creation of this article. Note that instead of highlighting Catalan supremacism, article creator linked supremacism; edit note creating this page reads: "largely translated from ES Wiki articles." One reason not ot do this is that political terms do not translate smoothly. This is demonstarted by the assertion in the first sentence, "Catalan supremacism was an ideology shared by all of the main intellectual figures[which?] of the Catalan Renaissance". The Catalan Renaissance was a classic example of Romantic nationalism - not an example of supremacism.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:57, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. POV fork. Despite the proliferation of refs, I doubt that many of them are reliable sources, or that there is significant coverage of Catalan supremicism (or racism) in those sources that are reliable, ∴ fails WP:V and GNG. The fact that the content seems to be acceptable on es.wiki does not make it acceptable here. Scolaire (talk) 13:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Mote that it does not exist in this name on the es.wiki ([5] is titled the Catalan Race). Some of the content from es.wiki was translated and repackaged to this.Icewhiz (talk) 13:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Note also that there was an attempt to add it to Catalan independence (as "Catalan Independence and Catalan Racial Theories") on 5 October 2017. --Scolaire (talk) 13:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Also in this article - The Catalan supremacism#Influence on 21st century Catalan independence movement seems to be rather pure WP:OR / WP:COATRACK (tying various Catalan politicians to this supposed supremacist movement - possibly a WP:BLP issue) while the rest of the article is mainly translated from the "Catalan Race" (omitting Mexico, minor changes otherwise) es.wiki article.Icewhiz (talk) 13:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Outside political pamphlets, I didn't find any serious source using the concept. I tried also to neutralize a bit the intro (changing "all catalan intellectuals" by "some") and this was systematically undone by the first author of the article, this was also his first article. Another addition about the phenomenon in Castile, (with a serious source) he first deleted and than watered down as he couldn't deny what was printed black on white. Finally the author is confusing some racial theories that indeed existed at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, in many countries of Europe, and that aren't typical nor mainstream in Catalonia. He is presenting them as there is a continuity until today, without any evidence. The quotes are very selective, without counterbalancing them. With the context ignored and without any serious evidence, this article should be deleted.--Flamenc (talk) 14:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as WP:POVFORK — JFG talk 14:37, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep but consider Rename: All of the sources are serious reputable academic sources and reputable media sources. The article seems to be attacked for political reasons related to Catalan nationalism but is not a fork from that article. It is about a very specific stand-alone topic, extensively sourced using academic material and secondary sources and has information which is not currently covered by English language Wikipedia: 19th and 20th century Catalan racial supremacist thought. As an equivalent to Racism in Spain or Falangism, it is not a fork from Catalan nationalism. That the subject matter is distasteful to nationalists of a specific region is not relevant since Wikipedia is not censored on grounds of denialism. This would be an unacceptable amount of information to delete. It would require placing the content elsewhere, and Catalan nationalism is not an appropriate place for it, since it would give undue weight to a very specific historical phenomenon which need not be conflated with a nationalist movement.Sonrisas1 (talk) 16:57, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as WP:POVFORK, lack of primary sources and reliable secondary forces, unsolved issues regarding naming, unsolved issues regarding references, bias, and use of fake images. --Panotxa (talk) 17:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator Nblund talk 17:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Delay deletion - Focus on consensus building Article seems pretty solid in terms of refs and, looking at editing history, it has been subject to a politically motivated lynch mob since creation. Best wait until situation in Catalonia calms down a bit before taking drastic decisions. Mel. 94.207.115.54 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I see no WP:POVFORK. The White supremacism argument provided by Sonrisas1 is quite strong. Is White supremacism a POV-fork of American exceptionalism? No, they are two standalone yet related articles with a degree of overlap. Ariasju (talk) 12:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)— Ariasju (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Strong keep Comment. Although References need reformatting and should be strengthened, are indeed credible and authoritative, and should thus not be dismissed. Ariasju (talk) 01:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Comment on allegations of lack of credible sources: The main secondary sources of this article are the following:

  • Angel Smith [es] (well known hispanist), The Sources Catalan Nationalisms (2014), Palgrave Macmillan. (this is main source on bulk of article) [1] (Main Source
  • Anti-Semitism in Spain. The image of the Jew, Gonzalo Álvarez Chillida, Marcial Pons Estudios. [2]
  • Montserrat Clua y Faine, (a very prestigious professor of the University of Barcelona), her book "Catalans, inmigrants and xarnegos, "race", "culture" and "mixing" in the nationalist discourse (2011), UAM.[3]
  • Hidden stories of Catalan Nationalism, Javier Barraycoa (2011) Barraycoa, Javier (2011). Historias ocultadas del nacionalismo catalán (in Spanish) (1st ed.). Madrid: LibrosLibres. ISBN 978-8492654765.
  • The Catalan Race by Francisco Caja [es] (2009), Encuentro Caja, Francisco (2009). La raza catalana (in Spanish) (1st ed.). Madrid: Encuentro. ISBN 9788490552483. (another major study)
  • Spain against Catalonia. History of a Fraud (2014), by Francisco Lainz [es] Laínz, Jesús (2014). España contra Cataluña: Historia de un fraude (in Spanish) (1st ed.). Madrid: Encuentro. ISBN 9788490552483.
  • Separatism in Catalonia (1907), Francisco Jaume [es], [4]
The culture of Catalanism (1995)and Catalan nationalism in its beginnings (1995),seminal work written in Catalan by well known Catalan academic Joan Lluís Marfany (see his article on Catalan wikipedia).

References

  1. ^ Smith, Angel (2014). The Origins of Catalan Nationalism, 1770-1898, p.200-203. Palgrave Macmillan UK. ISBN 9781137354495. Retrieved 23 October 2017.
  2. ^ Chillida, Gonzalo Alvarez; Benito, Ricardo Izquierdo (2007). El antisemitismo en España. ISBN 9788484274711.
  3. ^ Clua i Fainé, Montserrat (2011). "Catalanes, inmigrantes y charnegos: "raza", "cultura" y "mezcla" en el discurso nacionalista catalán". Revista de Antropología Social (in Spanish). 20. Madrid: Universidad Complutense de Madrid: 55–75. ISSN 1131-558X. Retrieved 12 December 2015.
  4. ^ Jaume, Francisco (1907). "El separatismo en Cataluña: Sociología aplicada".

I could go on, but I have to get back to work. I can only assume, accusations of "fringe theories" or false/absence/non-credible sourcing are made in bad faith in this request for deletion... Media sources include La Vanguardia, El Periódico de Catalunya, Avui, El Mundo etc.Sonrisas1 (talk) 06:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Sourcing in the article is generally poor, and the article text doesn't match the sourcing. The sourcing in particular for the WP:OR section of "Influence on 21st century Catalan independence movement" - does not appear solid - for instance you connect Artur Mas and Oriol Junqueras to supremacism (quite a WP:BLP issue!) - however while the quote itself is reliable, it does not back up this connection.Icewhiz (talk) 07:02, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz I'm not denying the article has issues. I has LOTS OF THEM. I need help. But the solution is not deleting it. Its helping me fix it. Regarding Junqueras and Mas. I don't connect them to supremacism. The article doesn't claim those statements are supremacist. It says that, according to sources that that their statements are accused of being supremacist by x,y,z. That should be fine, no? But that is a discussion for the article not a request for deletion. Aborting its existence one week into creation after such a massive translation effort is unfair on a good faith new wikipedian, who had big plans for translating a bunch of articles.Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This article wouldn't have passed Wikipedia:Articles for creation - which you might want to look into if you intend to create similar articles. I nominated this for deletion because I believe the topic (which doesn't seem to exist for any other national group on Wikipedia in this form - at least per my check) is not salvageable - both on my own impression, and based on the impression of multiple other editors on the article talk page (and article tags). While some topics are quite translatable between different language wikis, if you are translating a highly-political article with POV aligned to the language you are translating from - you will often run into NPOV problems. The Spanish (or French, Arab, Hebrew, or just about any other language wiki) NPOV is different from the English NPOV (which leads to the philosophical question of what neutrality is, but...).Icewhiz (talk) 07:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz Understood, that is a valid point. Then the solution I would really beg all of you is to rename the article, totally change the lead and edit some of the body. We could rename it to Catalan Romantic Racism or something of the thought, since an article on Catalan racial nationalism, or ideally Catalan chauvinism, akin to Han chauvinism. I think, given the huge amount of sources (potentially there is much much, more) it should be modified not deleted. I am not a political edit warrior, I would contribute to a section which provides counter-arguments and criticisms of the concept, and there are many credible ones in the Spanish language which could be included. Improving, modifying the article is a better course of action than deleting its entire content. I really believe this. This article can be neutral - I agree it is not neutral enough yet now, but I thought it would become better with progressive editing and expansion by editors with a range of views. I think I just chose the wrong time to create the article since national sentiment is high on both sides. I am even willing to agree to the most aggressive of editors here (Panotxa) of this article to re-formulate the lead in a way that Catalan chauvinism is expressed as a belief or an argumentation rather than an undisputed reality. I hate the idea of so much work going to waste. Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to mention, in Spanish wikipedia this article is called "Catalan race" which I thought was an odd name for wikipedia article (hence I changed it), but it is a long standing stable article and the subject matter is largely the same: (ethnic supremacism in Catalan nationalist discourse).Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You said above that The Origins of Catalan Nationalism, 1770-1898, pp.200-203 was the "main source on bulk of article". Pages 200-203 are not visible on Google Books, but what is available talks knowledgeably and at length about Catalan identity without so much as hinting at racism, supremacism or anything else-ism. I can't believe that the author would suddenly change his tone for four pages late in the book. If this is your "main source", then I would conclude that all your other sourcing, or at least your interpretation of it, is equally dubious. Is there a single source that connects the writings of Almirall, the writings of Pompeyo Gener, the Civil War, early 20th century immigration, 1960s immigration and the 21st century independence movement? No, of course not. It's simply original research. As I said above, the fact that this is acceptable on Spanish Wikipedia does not make it acceptable on English Wikipedia. Scolaire (talk) 09:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is a lot of confusion in this article as between Catalan identity (you could fill a library about this theme) and the conclusion of supposed superiority, for which there are no real modern sources other than pamphlets. --Flamenc (talk) 11:55, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz, Flamenc: I am asked to "Assume Good Faith" from all editors, but it is very hurtful when Scolaire, who I see edit wars often on issues related to Catalan independence, suggests I am fabricating or making up the contents of Mr Smith's book in the article's references. But Mr. Scolaire, no, I did not lie when translating this article and checking its sources and no I don't fabricate citations. The book is one of the article's main sources not "my main source", (even though I do happen to own it). It says what is written in the body of the article and early Catalan-nationalist racial supremacist discourse is discussed not just in p199-203 (p.202 IS visible and you can see what he is talking about in p 201) but in a number of other pages, throughout the book (p,149-156) for example or p251-252. If you search for key words in the book on its page in google books: like "berber", "semitic", "race", "african" etc. you will have an idea in which pages it is discussed . I don't know how else to convince you. Is this required or normal? Should I write down the entire text of each page here, in this RfD? Or scan it?
Scolaire I don't know where you are getting at with your second question. Your question is "is there one source which connects the racist writings of (for example) Jordi Pujol and other modern nationalist politicians to the racist thought of the founders of Catalan nationalism? YES. EVIDENTLY. All of the sources referenced in the article do. Even those NOT referenced in the article do! That's why no one deletes them. Here is an example after a 5 second google search that does so.http://intereconomia.com/nacional/racismo-los-teoricos-nacionalismo-catalan-20120330-20120401-0000/feed/ Please use google translate more thoroughly and notice the body is referenced to such detail that no one focuses their attacks on the body of the article, only on the lead or on trying to get it deleted. You personally are either assuming bad faith or trying to get other wikipedians to assume bad faith with such statements. I'm sorry but I find this very insulting. It is wrong behavior even if you do not speak Spanish or Catalan there is no excuse... Sonrisas1 (talk) 15:02, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, by all means let's bring that to the reliable sources noticeboard and see how reliable they think it is. Scolaire (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then Scolaire read this an entire study in the review of social anthropology of the University of Barcelona: Catalan, immigrants and charnegos: “race”, “cultura” and “mixture” in Catalan Nationalist Rhetoric. It is an important source in the article, it is the answer to your question. It discusses Racism towards immigrant Spaniards in Nationalist discourse from beginning of 20th century to the 21st century. But the question is, have you bothered to read it before trying to get this article deleted? Please use Google translate when required. https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/RASO/article/viewFile/36262/35111

  • Abstract:

This paper focuses on the manner in which ‘race’ and ‘culture’ are used in nationalist rhetorics, paying special attention to the presence or absence of ideas of biological or cultural ‘mixture’ employed in order to define socio-political identity of offspring of parents who possess different national identities. I will analyze this phenomenon in the ethnographic instance of Catalan nationalism, a kind of ‘civic’ nationalism that defines Catalan identity basically in cultural terms. The paper proposes to contrast this type of nationalist rhetoric with a form of xenophobic attitude that developed in Catalonia in the past century —1960s-1970s— and which served to stigmatize the offspring of ‘mixed’ marriages between Catalans and Spanish immigrants. This instance serves to show that nationalist ideologies tend to adapt their argumentative structure to the prevailing socio-political and conceptual context, shifting from and/or combining culturalist and biologist/essentialist principles of classification. Finally, I want to point out the importance of paying special attention to the contemporary economic crisis in particular, with regard to attitudes and disqualifications of non-European immigrants in Catalonia and their descendants.Sonrisas1 (talk) 16:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC) Sonrisas1 (talk) 16:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Contrasting modern "cultural" nationalism with 60s xenophobia! And where does it discuss Almirall, Gener or Junqueras? This is what I mean about the way you use sources. But this is not the place for this discussion. It should be on the article talk page. We have each argued our side. Let the closer draw his or her own conclusions. Scolaire (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not great with Spanish, but I believe the word "brevemente" means "briefly" - the author is discussing a xenophobia that formed briefly in the 1960s and 70s. That word was in the original, but you left it out of your translation, for some reason. This doesn't support the thrust of the article, it seems to refute it by noting that contemporary Catalan nationalism is a form of civic Nationalism that doesn't really rely on an ethnic identity at all. Nblund talk 16:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have now read the article in Google translate and it categorically does not say what you pretend it says. Scolaire (talk) 16:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, User:Nblund. Look at page 64 of the Barcelona University study, for example. It says: aunque es cierto que en términos generales el discurso nacionalista en Cataluña se ha construido a partir de criterios culturales, no hay que olvidar que hubo un importante debate sobre el “problema de la inmigración” en Cataluña entre 1919 y 1930, que se expresó a través de la pureza racial y los “problemas de la mezcla racial” (Simón Tarrés, 1995)
Translation: "Although it is true that, in general terms, Catalan nationalist discourse has been built on cultural criteria, we must not forget that there was an important debate about the "problem of immigration: in Catalonia between 1919 and 1930, which was expressed by means of racial purity and the problems of "racial admixture"."
She is citing: Josep Vandellós, Catalunya, poble decadent(1935) y La immigració a Cataluña(1935), also mentioned in the article. In any case the argument used by Scolaire is weak. It is like asking for the article White supremacism be deleted lest it shows an individual source which connects all L. Frank Baum with Alfred Rosenberg, Ian Smith, the White Patriot Party, Odinism, Charlottesville, Matthew F. Hale and Donald Trump. On the other hand, on this topic we do have a number of sources/articles which identify a general theme of ethnic supremacism from current politicians harking back to the 19th century: such as this one http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/politica/2015-07-26/oriol-junqueras-los-catalanes-tienen-mas-proximidad-genetica-con-los-franceses-que-con-los-espanoles-1276553647/ I concede this particular one is an article from a conservative TV channel and can be perfectly and legitimately contested with counter-arguments (in fact, it should - including explaining how Catalonia has become an inclusive society in the 1990s and the "us vs. them" in nationalism now based more on language/culture/politics than race). However sources arguing for a continuity do exist (the one above provided for example between the current Catalan vice-president Oriol Junqueras feeling the need to publicly discuss how "Catalans are genetically closer to the French and the Swiss whereas the Spanish are closer to the Portuguese" and that fact that the history of the Catalan nationalist renaissance is rife with racialist thought based on Catalans being more European and thus superior other Spaniards + xenophobic attitudes to immigrants from southern and central Spain and writings in the 30s on the need to maintain catalan ethnic purity. It is not Original Research. Sonrisas1 (talk) 17:06, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Nblund This article, which is a review of Francisco Caja's book also explains how this academic studies in his work the continuity between Almirall, Gener et al. and Jordi Pujol's ideology (hard to argue against that one considering his book about inferior Andalusians who will destroy Catalonia) and the development of modern independence movement through a chauvinistic/supremacist ideology. Please do google translate. Note Jordi Pujol is the father of Catalan nationalism in the democratic era and was President of Catalonia between the early 1980s and 2011. https://gaceta.es/noticias/francisco-caja-convivencia-civica-catalana-congreso-catalanidad-hispanica-raza-catalana-11072016-2022/Sonrisas1 (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would you not consider just writing a biography of Francisco Caja, describing his violent vitriolic anti-Catalan diatribes? You could copy it from this article. --Scolaire (talk) 18:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's the best you can do when you run out of arguments, Scolaire? Make stuff up about a professor of philosophy at the University of Barcelona you hadn't even heard of until this dispute? Unlike you, I do speak Catalan, so lying about a Catalan-university professor to weaken the validity of a source is pretty pointless and makes you look bad. His article in Catalan wikipedia (which is overall pretty biased due to language barriers reducing diversity of views - less than 40% of Catalans can write it properly) doesn't say anything at all about "violent diatribes against Catalonia". I think I have made my point here and you have shown what you are up to on wikipedia. I hope sanity prevails.Sonrisas1 (talk) 19:04, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sonrisas@, Unlike you, I understand and speak Catalan and don't use bad arguments to denigrate somebody who doesn't share my opinion. Never seen any of this language barriers. You still didn't bring any evidence of you supremacy theory (copypasted from a SCC video & propaganda). Arguments and facts allways are welcome.--Flamenc (talk) 07:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That diatribe is all that this article (and the corresponding one on es.wiki) is hanging on. Your misrepresentation of Angel Smith and Montserrat Clua is just padding. Scolaire (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 12:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete at best this is an unjustified content fork.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment race has been used in so many different not quite congruous ways in the last 250 years just in English, that I am not willing to accept some Wikipedia editors translation of Spanish-language material to say that the "race" being discussed here is at all congruous to the use of the term "race" in English. What we need is in English reliable sources that use this term. Normally in English sources are not needed, but when we are writting an article on an idea, the idea needs to be shown to be expressed under the name of the article title in reliable sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As per nominator. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 01:15, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It's a POVFORK and various nationalisms have espoused racialist notions in the past, there is no need to single Catalan nationalism out as the only one with its own page. If the page somehow escapes deletion, the section about "influence on the 21st century movement" (i.e. a WP:SYNTH-y pasting together of whatever quotes someone could find to try to smear a secessionist movement as based on racism) must go. Cheers.--Calthinus (talk) 02:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Fmercury1980 (talk) 14:44, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This article suffers a lot from not grasping the point Bernard Lewis made on his book on racism and slavery in the Middle-east. Race as a concept close to nationality existed in the 19th-century. It was rethought on slightly larger terms in the 20th-century. By the 21st-century most people who study the concept from a biological stand point have rejected the very notion of race, and some of the top physical anthropologist worry about the obsession with asking race on the part of medical institutions. I have in the last month filled out forms that listed possible races as Middle Eastern and Chaldean in one case. Those are two seperate races. In another case they just had Middle Eastern but also had Greek. We need a nuanced discussion of this idea, which can easily be provided in the article on Catalan Nationalism. n present discourse people regularly use ethnicity and race interchangeably. Despite US census statement "Hispanics can be of any race", many Americans will say being Hispanic is a race. Some even say ethnicity is a more specific measure than race. Then in my history of China class our professor told us the 50+ ethnicities of China are best thought of as similar to the various races of the US.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closing admin:
  1. two D! voters: (Flamenc and Panotxa) here are highly active Catalan wiki (99k and 62k) editors with little English wiki activity (271 and 70).
  2. 3 K! voter: one K! voter (Ariasju) is a pure SPA (nothing prior to editing this page), 1 K! voter (Fmercury1980) is a long dormant es-wiki account (close to null activity on es-wiki and en-wiki between 2010 and present - recent October 2017 small scale activity in en-wiki and es-wiki). Article creator (Sonrisas1, who !voted as well) is a new account with edits mainly limited to this article and similar Catalan/Spain.Icewhiz (talk) 15:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge It seems that this article lacks a major organizing field or principle - the connection of all these various different components of "Catalan Supremacism" is either based on very few sources, or pure original research. That being the case, rather than having an article dedicated to a concept with no real validity, it'd be better to take anything of value and put it in Catalan Nationalism, as the vast majority of the material in this article describes aspects of the Catalan Nationalist movement. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Mainly per the nom. It is a WP:POVFORK and I could not ignore the blatant neutrality violations. Most, if not all, the content is based on original research so merging would not be my first recommendation.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:00, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep'/Comment: Caja and Spanish media sources invalidate WP:SYNTH argument, which was only valid one. Don't see much validity in other arguments. 79.148.52.71, 21:09, 29 October 2017‎
  • Delete as original research and a POV fork of "Catalan nationalism." Google books search fails to show that it is a topic of study. Its few finds are use of the term in passing, for example, a cable from a loyalist in the Spanish Civil War says, "I see a tendency toward Catalan supremacism...." The article seems to be an attempt to tie the current secessionist movement in Catalonia to historic fascism. TFD (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commment: TFD Then I would suggest you vote RENAME, since there is plenty of material on Catalan racism and racial supremacy theories in early Catalan nationalism on Google books. See above.Sonrisas1 (talk) 07:36, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • We already have an article on Catalan nationalism and this article is a POV fork. Basically you have taken sources about Catalan nationalism and extracted negative content to create a topic for which there is no body of literature in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 11:04, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • The article is not about Catalan nationalism. It is about the history of racism in a particular geographic region, TFD. What makes British, Leeds University Professor Angel Smith's book or Alvarez Chillida's study on anti-semitism in Spain (to take two of many examples) unreliable? The unreliability/lack of sources argument is extremely strange. Maybe if it is repeated over and over again, editors will become convinced it is true and become blind to the body of reliable literature which is on the article itself... Is there a body of literature on Anti-Catalanism? The article is literally unsourced except for newspaper articles. Would you delete that too? Or is that fine? We cannot say that an academic is not reliable because POV-editors dislike a paragraph, page or chapter of one of his books. When we have an entire body of literature on the topic, we can't smear every one of its authors because we dislike a wikipedia article and want it deleted. Sonrisas1 (talk) 11:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Neither book has a section on "Catalan supremacism." You are taking snippets of information from sources on different topics to synthesize a topic for which no body of literature exists, which is synthesis. And what another Wikipedia article does is irrelevant to this discussion. There are lots of articles that fail notability standards. TFD (talk) 23:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. It's a clear case of WP:POVFORK. Impru20 (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge Heavily pruned content into 'Cat. Nationalism' as a 'criticism' or similar section. There is too much OR here and extrapolation, also I am not persuaded that 'supremacism' is the apt title for this content or is a commonname for the phenomenon. Chauvinism and xenophobia are frequently soul mates of nationalism and the content here appears to legitimately make the case that such criticism has been made about the Catalan variant. I would help pruning, but, I suspect Cat and Sp would be needed. Pincrete (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this travesty.FreeCatalonia (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As it is right now, I think it belongs into WP:POVFORK territory with plenty of undue extrapolation. The title "Catalan Supremacism" is not valid either, for what is meant to be (as you read the entry) something like "Racial discourse in Catalan nationalism". But there are plenty of sources in the entry to use elsewhere, though. Racism in Spain could be a place to start (although, in order to keep balance that entry should be expanded bigly with more content not related to Catalonia). Using Caja (a perfectly valid source to punctually source factual information and to make inline attributions despite what many Catalan nationalists may tell you) as common thread (which is close to be in a section) screams "problems" because he has fringe views about what Catalan nationalism is as a whole. PS: @Sonrisas1: I cannot do anything but recommend El antisemitismo en España: la imagen del judío, 1812-2002 by Álvarez Chillida in order to source about "racist and antisemitic views" in Spain. IIRC he talks about the racial views in fin de siècle Catalan nationalism, but he cannot be used as it is used right now at the beginning of the last section to make black & white statements (it screams of junk WP:SYNTH).--Asqueladd (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Agree:Asqueladd Moving the bulk of the content (or a condensed version of it) to Racism in Spain is a fair option. Note that was my next project anyways: rewriting that article on basis of Spanish version - which includes many other types of internal racism not just Catalan. I also think that article should be renamed History of racism in Spain. I do understand the POV-fork argument, but the fact is that this information has to be somewhere on Wikipedia. In the event that Catalonia became independent, we would need this as a separate article. I'm taking for granted this article will be deleted but I will get in touch with you at some point, since I don't know how to make attributions in sources (i.e. write the actual citations in Spanish within the reference) and focus on Racism in Spain. As a new Wikipedian, it would be good to have someone who can give me advice on such things, if you don't mind. Sonrisas1 (talk) 02:38, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: @Sonrisas1: I am not sure if "moving" the content is the apt word. I hate sounding patronizing but I can offer you my opinion/advice if you ask in my talk page. Regards.--Asqueladd (talk) 09:27, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator. This seems to have been created to prove a point, and not out of a motivation to write a neutral and informative article on the subject. The term also doesn't appear to be used often, if at all. —mountainhead / ? 15:04, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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