Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Early life of Cleopatra/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11 May 2023 [1].

Early life of Cleopatra[edit]

Nominator(s): Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC), User:PericlesofAthens[reply]

Once again, Pericles and I have joined hands and united to present another FAC for your consideration. Cleopatra is well-known for her later life, and probably most known for her death, but her early life is seldom discussed. Pericles has done a wonderful job starting and researching this article, and I am honored to have been granted permission to continue his work. After some effort and discussion with Periclles and Iry-Hor, I believe this article is ready for FA. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Not doing a full source review yet, but noted in passing that the article would benefit from some editing for citation consistency. At the moment we have some cites using {{citation}} and others {{cite book}}, some books which include publication locations and others which don't... rationalization needed here. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria This has been fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Support by Iry-Hor[edit]

First of all I should declare some sort of conflict of interest: I discussed the article prior to its nomination (although in an extremely limited fashion!) and Unlimitedlead is currently reviewing at FAC an article I nominated. That said I think I can repeat what I stated in the discussion: the article is very well written and impressively well referenced. I found a few minor things to update:

  • Duplinks: in section "Reign of Ptolemy XII and Roman interventionism" to Seleucid Empire (twice), in section "Return to Egypt from exile": to Talent (measurement), to Gaul (appearing at "Gallic"); in section "Accession to the throne" to Thebes and to Ancient Egyptian Religion (this one first shows up in section "Birth and tutelage").Iry-Hor (talk) 06:58, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iry-Hor: All fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly I am really happy to Support. I don't see what to add. The article is really nice, there is no point splitting hair it deserves FA. Good job ! Iry-Hor (talk) 08:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iry-Hor Thank you for your support and feedback! Unlimitedlead (talk) 11:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kusma[edit]

Reserving a spot here, review to follow. —Kusma (talk) 08:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead: "The early life of Cleopatra ... began with her birth" sounds a bit obvious, and the rest of the first sentence is a bit too convoluted. Try to first quickly define the scope of the article, then use further sentences to give background. I would also suggest not to mention Cleopatra V before you first link to Cleopatra.
Done.
I think you are still saying too much in one sentence. The parenthesis about when she ruled is just a distraction at the point where it is, and her parents are so complicated that you might want to move them to the next sentence. Her mother isn't strictly "unknown" if I understand the body correctly; it is more that there is scholarly disagreement about the identification of her mother, who was likely Cleopatra V or Cleopatra VI, or both if these are the same. —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. I have made some more edits; please see if it is to your liking. Unlimitedlead (talk) 15:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Better, but I would still like to see a very early link to Cleopatra. (Imagine this is a main page FA and you want to get from this article to her biography. She is the third Cleopatra that is linked, and the seventh link overall right now; not ideal) —Kusma (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cleopatra's father was a client ruler of the Roman Republic" can this really be stated so directly/is this true before 60 BC? He is not listed at List of Roman client rulers.
Fletcher p. 5 and several other sources describe the Egyptian state as a client kingdom of Rome; if it is not true before 60 BC, it certainly was at the time of Cleopatra's eary life, which is the topic of the aricle. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK if that's what the sources say; it just seems a bit inconsistent with his own and some other articles. —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only SEAOFBLUE issues I see are in cases of titles, such as Ptolemaic pharaoh Ptolemy XII Auletes. I believe that rewording sentences to avoid the SEAOFBLUE would make them extremely confusing to read. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
primarily-[[Hellenistic period|Hellenistic Greek]] [[Education in ancient Greece|education]] is still there, not a title, and a rather annoying SEAOFBLUE example.
Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 15:53, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Birth and tutelage: do you really need all the citations in "cousin or sister-wife Cleopatra V Tryphaena [11][12][13][nb 2][nb 3]"? They look a bit intimidating.
Sadly, yes. The topic of Cleopatra's mother is a much heated debate within academic circles. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you have just pasted the footnote into the text without adapting it to its context within the article. You now have "Auletes" something like five times before you go and explain what it means. You mention the expulsion of Cleopatra V as a historical fact after talking about its implications for the question of identity or not of Cleopatra V and VI. Can you try to sort this better and clarify what is agreed upon as historical facts and what is a matter of scholarly disagreement? —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sincere apologies. This whole genealogical tangle is really messing with my brain! Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Little is known of Cleopatra's early life". According to prozesize, enough for a 2480 word article ;)
We try ;) Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "her Roman colleagues would have preferred to speak with her in her native Koine Greek." who is meant by "colleagues" and why would they have preferred to speak Greek?
The sources only states that the "colleagues" are "Romans with whom she came into contact [with]..." The same source only states, "...Romans with whom she came into contact [with] would insist on speaking Greek. Greek had been used officially by the Romans since the early third century B.C., and in Cleopatra's day Cicero complained that there were still people who demanded interpreters... Latin would have been useful to her not so much to speak to Romans but to read material in that language..." Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:59, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with your explanation of the Greek (I would expect educated Romans at the time to speak Greek well, but was surprised they preferred it to Latin), but "colleagues" sounds a bit like "people with the same job", which obviously doesn't apply. —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "contemporaries". Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:13, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We are told about intermarriage twice, separated by a sentence about Egyptian priests.
Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Better, but I am now curious what the Greek poleis in Egypt were. Are there any known examples? —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed there are. In fact, there was a footnote in the article pertaining to this very matter, but was deleted at the suggestion of another reviewer. Would you like to me place it back? Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:16, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like that suggestion and think that footnote should be restored. It addressed this very concern about marriage law in Ptolemaic Egypt and how different colonial Greek poleis in Egypt had different laws, especially different laws from native Egyptian cities. The reviewer below simply didn't understand that context for whatever reason. Perhaps they were speed reading through the article and failed to notice? Pericles of AthensTalk 22:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't strongly care whether there is a footnote or not, but if Alexandria is one of the poleis, saying "Although there were laws against intermarriage in the Greek city-states (poleis) of Egypt" right after telling us there was a law against intermarriage in Alexandria seems a bit repetitive. —Kusma (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shall I just move that sentence into the footnote as well? Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think (but I can be wrong, and often am) that combining the two sentences about intermarriage would be the way to go. My suggestion is "Greeks, Jews, and Egyptians in these cities were legally segregated and lived in different parts of the city. In Alexandria and other Greek city-states (poleis) of Egypt, intermarriage was forbidden, although it was permitted in other parts of Egypt.", but you can perhaps combine/simplify this further depending on whether Naukratis and Ptolemais Hermiou are also considered Greek poleis, and whether there are any other ones. (I don't know the answer to these questions, and the article doesn't tell me). —Kusma (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the (speculated!) Egyptian half-cousin relevant for her early life? "At the beginning of her reign Cleopatra sought the support and loyalty of the Egyptian priesthood" makes it sounds like this was something that didn't start until later.
Moved to the Accession to the throne section.
  • Reign of Ptolemy XII and Roman interventionism: introduce Antiochus IV?
Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All unlinked.
  • Exile of Ptolemy XII and Cleopatra: first sentence is too long and confusing. "the Roman Republic annexed Cyprus and drove Ptolemy of Cyprus, where he committed suicide" something seems to be missing here.
Fixed.
  • "Whether by force or voluntary action, Ptolemy XII left Egypt in exile to Rhodes and his Roman host, Cato the Younger, who castigated him for losing his kingdom while seated on a latrine and undergoing laxative treatment." there are too many things in this sentence, and they are not connected properly. And it isn't clear whether the person on the latrine was Cato, and whether he was in Rhodes while castigating.
That sentences was perfectly grammatically correct and clear, but nonetheless I have adjusted it according to your suggestion. Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Both mental images (of Cato on the latrine or of Ptolemy on the latrine) were a bit unexpected. —Kusma (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to stop here for the moment. I think the article isn't quite ready and needs some copyediting and MOS:OL link removal. Happy to look at the rest once this kind of issues has been looked at in the whole article. —Kusma (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kusma Thanks for all your comments thus far; they have all been addressed. I completely understand your concerns regarding overlinking and prose, and I shall take a thorough look at them when I am free tomorrow. I understand (based on what others have told me) that the article is rather well-researched and well-written, so I am hopeful that these minor issues will not be a setback to the nominations' progress. Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 02:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma I have reread the entire article several times and done my best to fix any possible unclear language. I will say though, that @PericlesofAthens is a skilled writer and rarely produces any work that is not his best. Please let me know what you think about the article's state now; hopefully the review can resume. Thanks, Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will review the rest of the article, but it may take some time. —Kusma (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments:

  • "wrote Greek medical works" why link to History of medicine? I have also looked at the sources to check what we know, and it is far less definitive than what is written here. Fletcher says "Arab historians claimed that Cleopatra too 'wrote books on medicine'" and while Roller p. 45 names her "a medical author", this should be seen in the context of p. 49 "Cleopatra's education would also be reflected in her own publications, although the tradition of her as an author is obscure and full of problems" and "Connecting these fragments to Cleopatra VII is, admittedly, difficult" on p. 50. Why are you so certain she wrote these works in her youth? The corresponding section Cleopatra#Written_works in the main article seems much better.
I have tried to correct this. The article now reads, "During her youth Cleopatra presumably studied at the Musaeum (including the Library of Alexandria), and possibly wrote Greek medical works which may have been inspired by the physicians at her father's royal court.[28][27] Later Arab historians claimed that Cleopatra wrote medical texts,[27] but the long-held belief that Cleopatra was an author is, as Roller puts it, "is obscure and full of problems... [and] Connecting these fragments to Cleopatra VII is, admittedly, difficult".[29] Several works from antiquity, which now only exist as fragments, were labeled as Cleopatra's although Roller argues that "by late antiquity Cleopatra VII was by far the most famous person of that name and there would be a tendency to assume that the fragments were hers.[30]". Any thoughts? Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I think it is a bit long given that we don't reliably know that this is connected to her youth. I removed the extra "is". —Kusma (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Romans— especially desperate financiers of Ptolemy XII such as Rabirius Postumus—were determined to restore Ptolemy XII" as it was against Roman law, perhaps phrasing it as "the Romans were determined" isn't optimal.
It was indeed against Roman law, but the plan was carried out anyways. How would you have me rephrase it? I was thinking about replacing "the" with "some". That way, it would be clear that now all Romans backed this plot. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The Romans" sounds like it was the official government position, not that of one (powerful) faction. —Kusma (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which instance in the article are you referring to? Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gabinius was tried and acquitted in Rome for abusing his authority." He was tried for abusing his authority, but was acquitted?
"Gabinius was tried and acquitted in Rome for abusing his authority. His second trial for accepting bribes led to a seven-year exile..." means that he was tried twice: the first trial resulted in him being acquitted, and the second trial led to exile. I think the sentences makes this clear: "tried and acquitted for abusing his authority... second trial for accepting bribes."Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The link is rather unhelpful: it just says "term applied to a variety of administrative officials". Additionally, people here at FA do not like foreign language titles, for some reason. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ptolemy XII, who died of natural causes, designated " why do we need the cause of death here? His death isn't really under discussion until the next section.
Removed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Cleopatra probably married her brother, Ptolemy XIII, but the marriage is uncertain". Again, not a fan of the "married" link. I didn't understand what is "uncertain" about this until I read the main article Cleopatra. It would be nice to hear how old he was at the time.
Removed that link. And both done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do we have almost a paragraph discussing sibling marriage when we don't know that this applied to Cleopatra? I also don't see the point of including the image of Ptolemy II and Arsenoe II a few sections up. I have removed the image at your request. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe "sibling marriages were nevertheless considered a normal arrangement for Ptolemaic rulers by the time of Cleopatra's reign" offers some rational behind why Cleopatra's incestuous marriage could have been plausible; if it had not happened, it certainly would have been ordinary for it to occur.

I have finished my first read through. The article looks quite well-researched and comprehensive, but after looking at the main Cleopatra article, I am still a bit underwhelmed by this one. There is a bit more background here (mostly on the historical context and on what other people did), but not so much extra information on the early life of Cleopatra herself. At the same time, the main Cleopatra article is better written and more pleasant to read (and some of my comments here, for example "the Romans" or "marriage is uncertain" seem have been addressed there). Looking at both together, one can still see that this article is based on an old version of the main article. Not supporting or opposing at this point; I'll ponder this for a while and let other reviewers have a go. —Kusma (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Kusma: That is quite alright! Thank you for your review thus far. Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Buidhe[edit]

The footnotes look excessive to me. I would look into removing or integrating into the text. Examples:

  • Fn 1 includes information about the death date, but this article is about her early life so detailed information about the death date is not relevant to the article subject. Axe it.
  • The text says that Cleopatra's mother was Cleopatra V Tryphaena but the note suggests that it could have been Cleopatra VI Tryphaena. Seems to me that some of the note's content should be integrated into the text
  • Fn 4 is about Cleopatra's father and does not actually offer additional information about the article subject. It does not belong in this article.
  • Fn 5 is unnecessary because you already say she spoke a different language. Relevant to other articles about ancient Egypt but not this one.
  • Fn 6: why is the legal status of Alexandria and citizenship of its residents relevant to this article? Axe it.

etc. (t · c) buidhe 07:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe All done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 11:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion above led to me keeping note six (now note two). Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:09, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild[edit]

I settled down to review this, but it seems a bit under prepared. The prose is often, IMO, clunky. Would the nominators mind if I were to copy edit a section or two by way of illustration - if they wish to stand by their original prose they can always revert - and we can then discuss? Gog the Mild (talk) 15:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, dear. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "well-versed" mean. Could speak them? Fluently? Could read and write them? Fluently?
  • "He and a daughter, ostensibly Cleopatra and not Arsinoe IV". For the lead this needs either further explaining (eg who is Arsinoe IV?) or removing.
  • "but it is uncertain if they married before engaging in open hostilities". It is uncertain if they married, or it is uncertain if they married before the war started? Do you mean 'She may have married her brother, Ptolemy XIII, but this is uncertain. By 47 BC they were engaging in open warfare.'
  • "were exiled from Egypt during a revolt." When?
  • Copy edit to lead.
  • Bernice, or Berenice IV?
  • "extending his provincial command to Egypt". What did this mean in practice for Egypt and Cleopatra?
  • "until he was killed by the Parthians in the 53 BC"> SO when Crasus was killed, wharever effects you list in answer to the question above ceased? And didn't carry over to the next Roman governor?
  • "Postumus was placed under protective custody". By whom?
  • "when his life was threatened". By whom?
  • "were allowed to harass people in the streets of Alexandria." This is a bit unclear. It could mean anything from racist name calling to robbing and raping at sword point.
  • "all of Ptolemy XII's debt". Just checking - a debt, singular?
  • "for draining Egypt of its resources". Was he? (Draining Egypt of its resources.) Or just collecting the monarch's legally due debt[s]? I ask because you seem to be (I am unclear) stating that he was (draining Egypt of its resources), in Wikipedia's voice.
  • Copy edit to two paragraphs selected at random.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gog for your comments. May I take a look at them after Thursday? This upcoming world history exam is going to be the death of me... Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I am, regretfully, leaning oppose at the moment. A lot of the prose is not, well, taut enough. It doesn't say what you want it to say, or says it in a round about manner. Have a look through my edits and queries above on the five paragraphs I've looked at in detail and I think you'll see what I mean. It seems too deep rooted to me to get sorted during a FAC, so seems best to withdraw, tighten everything up at leisure and then bring it back. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: @Gog the Mild @PericlesofAthens Regrettably that has been proposed by more than one reader. If it is alright with you, Pericles, I would like to withdraw this nomination and re-nominate it at some undisclosed date in the future. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead That's a shame, but understandable. I am not free to address any of this anytime soon either, certainly not this week. I'll try to tackle it afterwards if I can. Cheers and thanks for all your efforts in trying to nominate this for FA status. Pericles of AthensTalk 20:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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