Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Great North of Scotland Railway/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC) [1].

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Great North of Scotland Railway

Great North of Scotland Railway (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Great North of Scotland Railway/archive1

Nominator(s): Edgepedia (talk) 05:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... I found a copy of Vallance (the main source) in a charity shop and thought this would make an interesting article. Thanks to User:Tim riley for the comments to the peer review; since then I have added a few details from another book. Edgepedia (talk) 05:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Support – I looked in on spec at peer review, and though railway history is not one of my usual stamping grounds I read this substantial article from start to finish with pleasure and interest. It does what Wikipedia at its best does better than any other online resource – it gives a full and beautifully-illustrated overview of its topic. At FAC I try to avoid comment on images, as I am inexpert on Wikipedia's byzantine rules, but the prose seems to me to meet all the FAC criteria. It is full, but not overfull; the referencing is excellent and (importantly at FAC) from a good range of sources in addition to Vallance; it is a pleasure to read; there is no discernible bias. I look forward to seeing the article on the front page. – Tim riley (talk) 17:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Tim. Edgepedia (talk) 12:06, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Cassianto

Establishment and construction

• "Two years later the railway mania bubble had burst..." -- An idiom I would avoid for an encyclopaedic article.
• "The following winter was severe, delaying work..." -- Past tense more preferable.

Opening

• I'm not a huge fan of bulleted lists within prose based articles, but I can see where you are coming from with this as the order reading downwards to give the feel of a train timetable oddly enough. One thing though, should the citations be after punctuation marks? I speak of Buxburn and Inverury
• A link to Passing loop would be helpful here.
• carryed →carried
• "The carriages were being built by Brown, Marshall & Co..." -- remove "being" . Or say something like: "The carriage builders Brown, Marshall & Co in Birmingham, stated that based on their experience they had expected the line to open at least two months late."
• "The station staff should not have allowed the carriages to be waiting at the station." Is this your opinion?

Thanks Cassianto, I've sorted the simple stuff [2], I'll look at rephrasing these sentences when I get home from work this evening. Edgepedia (talk) 11:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The four sentences mentioned rewritten here. Edgepedia (talk) 17:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Waterloo, Keith and Inverness

• "The Aberdeen Railway (AR) had opened from the south to Ferryhill, south of Aberdeen, in April 1850." -- Remove "had".
• "It had been previously arranged that the Aberdeen and Great North would amalgamate, but this had been annulled that year, and the Aberdeen was seeking alliances with railways to the south." -- Ditto. I would swap "had" with "was".
• "In 1854 the AR opened its Guild Street terminus in Aberdeen in 1854 and the GNoSR..." -- Repetion on 1854.
• "...and passengers 1 April 1856." →"...and passengers on 1 April 1856."
• "...although the number of services was later reduced to four." →"...although the number of services were later reduced to four."
• "The link between Nairn and Keith was authorised on 21 July 1856, with the route having steeper gradients than had originally been proposed to reduce cost and the Great North contributing £40,000 towards a bridge over the Spey." -- Why would having steeper gradients reduce costs? Also, could we have an inflation conversion on £40,000. I would advise having this within the notes section and not mingling among the prose.

Fixed my poor grammar [3]. It made sense to remove a comma whilst I was doing that.

I think about how to add 'steeper gradient meant less work' into that last sentence. done

The instructions for {{Inflation}} say that it is not capable of inflating capital expenses. Looking on the template talk page using the UK National Gross Domestic Product per capita (i.e. the UKNGDPPC figures) seem to be one way of doing this, but this is not my expertise. I'll read about the subject a bit more. Edgepedia (talk) 12:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

No worries. The inflation tag is merely a personal preference you understand and not an obligatory action. I will leave this up to you. If you choose to use it, you could cut and paste this which I have done for you - ...£40,000 is equal to £4,721,574 in 2024 adjusted for inflation.

Looking at this, you shouldn't use RPI/CPI figures for the cost of a project. Example three on that page looks at three different ways of accounting for inflation, from the cost of capital goods or the share of the project in the countries GDP. The problem is these estimate the value of a £40000 project in 1856 as from £3 to £78 million. (see [4])

Like I say, I'm not insistent on this. -- Cassianto^Talk 13:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Expansion, 1854–1866

• "Permission to build a line to serve the fishing ports at Peterhead and Fraserburgh had been received in 1846." -- Either we are going to say "Permission to build a line to serve the fishing ports at Peterhead and Fraserburgh had been received by 1846..." Or we are going to drop the "had" and say "Permission to build a line to serve the fishing ports at Peterhead and Fraserburgh was received in 1846..." (Which I favour btw).
• "Aberdeen, Peterhead and & Fraserburgh Railway" -- Do you mean to use the ampersand or "and"? I would envisage the former.
• "that year and the following" -- Simplify by saying "for two years".
• WP:OVERLINK to Fraserburgh.
• "...Aberdeen and Fraserburgh and Peterhead." -- repetition of "and".
• "Three or four services a day ran between Aberdeen and Fraserburgh and Peterhead, the trains dividing at Maud and taking between 2 1⁄2 and 2 3⁄4 hours." -- Once the second "and" has been replaced by a comma, could the "and" be moved further on? -- I copy edited this.
• "The railway was absorbed by the Great North of Scotland Railway on 1 August 1866." -- Not sure "absorbed" is the right word here, suggest "taken over" or "incorporated" or something similar? This goes for the other mentions later on. Is this a technical term?
  • "Absorbed" is a common term in British railway literature. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Thankyou. -- Cassianto^Talk 21:09, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
• "In June 1858 the line was leased to the GNoSR for a rental of £650." -- Per week, per month or annually?
• Copy edit here.
• "Plans to reach fishing ports at Macduff and Banff from Inverurie were proposed when the Great North was first suggested, but failed because of lack of support." -- Public, financial or otherwise?
• Is "The Great North" a well-known abbreviated term for The Great North of Scotland Railway?

Yes, Vallance, Barclay-Harvey and Thomas & Turnock all use it. Edgepedia (talk) 06:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• "Worked by the GNoSR from 4 June 1860..." Are we missing a word from the start of this sentence?
• OVERLINK to "Macduff".
• OVERLINK to "Banff".
• copy edit
• "Most of the line was built with gradients up to 1 in 70..." →"Most of the line was built using gradients up to 1 in 70..."?
• "The railway opened on 30 July 1859, with full services..." -- Full? Is that passenger and goods or one or the other?
• I don't think its good using two separate abbreviated terms for The Great North of Scotland Railway. So far, we are using GNoSR and "The Great North". This needs to be consistent throughout.

Thank you. I'll should be able to work on these lunch time. Edgepedia (talk) 06:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Changes here.

I think what looks like OVERLINKs to Fraserburgh and Macduff are because I'm linking to the town and then the station (this looks like Macduff). I have 'User:Ucucha/duplinks.js' installed, and I went through and deleted some here. I left those in the Rolling Stock section as readers could just jump to read that.

Excellent. As a personal rule, I think that links should not look the same. If you are linking to the station, then the link should carry that articles name. -- Cassianto^Talk 20:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"built using gradients" sounds wrong to me - as if gradients were used in the construction.

Cool. Feel free to change any of my edits if you wish. -- Cassianto^Talk 20:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I will think about your comment from two abbreviations for the Great North of Scotland. Vallance and Barclay-Harvey using Great North, whereas Thomas and Turnock use Great North and GNSR. If I was to choose one, I would choose Great North. Edgepedia (talk) 18:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would be better. -- Cassianto^Talk 20:12, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• "... but progress was slow because of lack of money." →"... but progress was slow because of a lack of money."
• "The line was opened on 1 July 1863 between Dufftown and Abernethy (later called Nethy Bridge). The line between Dufftown and Craigellachie became the main line..." -- Do we need to repeat Dufftown and Abernethy again?
• "The Act also permitted..." -- Curious capitalisation of "act" here. Also, which act do you speak of?
  • It's normal to capitalise "Act" when that refers to an Act of Parliament (this has come up at FAC before). The Act concerned will be the Act of Incorporation for the railway - public railways could not raise funds, purchase land or commence construction without one. See Acts of the Parliaments of the United Kingdom Part 50 (1861) where we find the Strathspey Railway Act (24 & 25 Vict. c.xvi). "No. 7121". The Edinburgh Gazette. 24 May 1861. p. 675. shows 'An Act to authorise the making of a railway in Scotland, to be called "The Strathspey Railway."' --Redrose64 (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Thats fine, but it looks odd having "Act" capitalised when it is on its own in a sentence. -- Cassianto^Talk 08:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
• 17 May 1861.[39]. -- Watch for stray punctuation.
• "there was now a route between Keith and Elgin..." -- Prose. Best to stick to past tense.
• " The 5 1⁄2-mile (8.9 km) line opened on 10 August 1852 with a special train from Elgin to a celebration in Lossiemouth. " -- Celebration of what?
• "The GNoSR refused to hold its trains to connect with trains arriving at Guild Street..." -- Repetion of "trains". Might I suggest swapping the second "trains" with "those"
• "...and approached Aberdeen Steam Navigation Company..." Definate article is so much better.
• "...reduced for through traffic. and through ticketing by rail was not available until 1859, when the GNoSR joined the Railway Clearing House." -- Watch for capitalisation. Is this a sentence, or is simply a stray full stop?
• "This would have built a 22-mile (35 km) long railway between Limpet Mill, to the north of Stonehaven on the SNER, to the GNoSR at Kintore." -- Did it not then?
• Is the capitalisation for "Act" intended? Usually the name of the act is capitalised; do we know its name?
  • See my comment above; but cannot give further detail since I don't know which sentence "Act" occurs in. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
• "Hutcheon Street tunnel became its longest tunnel" -- Is there a way around repeating "tunnel"?
• "The company survived after the railway mania bubble burst..."-- Idiomatic ending.
• "Investors were still hard to find, but by limiting the railway to a line between Ferryhill, in Aberdeen, and Banchory it was possible to open on 7 September 1853 when a special train travelled from Aberdeen to Banchory." -- Something not quite right with this sentence: "Investors were still hard to find, but by limiting the railway to a line between Ferryhill in Aberdeen and Banchory; it was possible that it opened on 7 September 1853 when a special train travelled from Aberdeen to Banchory." ?
• "...its Ferryhill station in Aberdeen" -- Do we need to be reminded of the fact it was located in Aberdeen again?
• " After the extension of the Deeside opened in 1866 and the merger of the Banffshire the following year the Great North of Scotland Railway owned 226 1⁄4 route miles (364 km) of line and operated over a further 61 miles (98 km).[81][27] -- Watch for ref order at the end of this sentence.
• "...and had cost business of equivalent value to a five per cent dividend." -- Look carefully at this: should it be "...and had cost the business an equivalent value to a five per cent dividend" or something similar?
• Not sure saying "had cost dear" is encyclopaedic enough.
• "On 27 November 1882 Inverythan Bridge on the Macduff Branch near Auchterless collapsed under a train as it was crossing. The locomotive was hauling five goods wagons, a brake van, two third class carriages, a first class carriage and brake third class carriage. The locomotive and tender crossed the bridge, but wagons and carriages fell..." -- Repetetive and redundent. Suggest: "On 27 November 1882 Inverythan Bridge on the Macduff Branch near Auchterless collapsed as a locomotive, which was hauling five goods wagons, a brake van, two third class carriages, a first class carriage and brake third class carriage, crossed. The accident killed five people who had been travelling in the first and second carriages and injured fifteen others." Something like that.

Changes here. Edgepedia (talk) 14:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• "By June 1880 the main line was doubled as far as Kintore, and in the next five years" →" By June 1880 the main line was doubled as far as Kintore, and over the next five years"
• "The railway resolved to live down its reputation as a 'terrible railway' that ran 'funerally-paced trains' -- Who described it as such, and double quote marks should be used per MOS:QUOTEMARKS
• "After trialling on the Fraserburgh line, the system was installed on the coast route in May 1889, and by 1 January 1893 it was in operation on all single-line sections."
• Even though they are incorrect in format, I don't think the quotation marks in " 'Commissioners' Service' " add anything?
• "Seasonal through services to Aberdeen began in 1899 with an up service in the morning and for some years there was also an afternoon up service that returned in the evening." →"Seasonal through services to Aberdeen began in 1899 with an up service in the morning and for some years, an afternoon up service that returned in the evening.
• Why do italicise "Aberdeenshire Light Railway"?
• ...and "Echt Light Railway"?

Changes here.

Regard's the Great North's reputation, the sentence in Thomas & Turnock (1993, p. 166) is

'Bristling with fight and notoriously cantankerous, as befitted a fine flower of the North East', the Great North was initially dubbed a 'terrible railway' running 'funerally-paced trains'.

There are a few pages listing sources in the chapter's bibliography, but these statements are not attributed. Edgepedia (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Would it be worth attributing the book? -- Cassianto^Talk 09:21, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking about this. I'm trying to summarise the tone of two pages of the book. Edgepedia (talk) 12:25, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Rewrote sentence here. Edgepedia (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

• GNoSR's Elgin station had been described in the 1890s as a "miserable collection of dilapidated wooden sheds, bordering a large bare platform space completely open to the weather" -- Described by who?
• "Aberdeen joint station was congested, resulting in delayed trains, and the low, open platforms were frequently covered in fish slime." -- Why? This sounds very odd. An elaboration of why it was covered in fish slime would be more helpful. Was it that it was prone to flooding from nearby sea?
• "The railways were in a poor state after the war, costs having increased, with higher wages, the introduction of an eight-hour day and price of coal having risen" →"The railways were in a poor state after the war due to a rise in wages, the introduction of an eight-hour day and a surge in the price of coal."

Changes here. I've removed the quote here and rewritten the sentences. Edgepedia (talk) 12:25, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

• No need to link Germany.
• "Sunday services were re-introduced; from 1928 Aberdeen suburban services ran hourly Sunday afternoon and evenings." A spot some repetition here as we are reminded twice of "Sunday": Suggest, "Sunday services were re-introduced; from 1928 Aberdeen suburban services ran hourly during the afternoon and evenings."
• "The Lossiemouth and Banff branch closed in 1964 and the following year the St Combs branch, Dyce to Peterhead and Fraserburgh, the Speyside section..." Maybe it's me, but this line does not make sense. Are we sure of the punctuation within it?
• Dyce should be linked upon first mention.
• Multiple overlinking of 0-4-2.
• Overlinking of 2-2-0.
• "The financial situation in 1866 had precluded buying any more locomotives..." -- Whose financial situation? This is a new paragraph so some mention should be made to establish whose situation it was. Also, I would swap "had precluded buying any more locomotives" for "had precluded the purchasing of any more locomotives".
• "Although there was only space for four locos..." -- Consistant use of "locomotives" preferred.
• Are R. Stephenson & Co.the same as the earlier mentioned "Stephensons"? If so, this link should be moved to there and the full title given.
• "three months before outbreak of war" → "three months before the outbreak of war".
• Overlink to 4-4-0
• "...and is currently on loan to Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'ness." →"...and is currently on loan to the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'ness."
• "The first carriages were 9-long-ton (9.1 t) four-wheelers, 21 feet 9 inches (6.63 m) long. Painted a dark brown with yellow lining and lettering, they had Newall's chain brake and a seat was provided for the guard on the roof. Two classes of accommodation were provided..." -- Repetition of "provided".
• "Carriages were equipped with the Westinghouse air brake in the 1880s, and this became the standard in 1891." -- The standard what? Delete "the" from before "standard".
• "Corridor carriages with both classes having access to a lavatory, lit with electric lamps using Stone's system and 36-foot (11 m) long on six wheels, appeared in 1896." -- This doesn't read right. Without wishing to sound pedantic, what was lit with electric lamps a d 36-foot long, the toilet or the carriage? Suggest: Corridor carriages for both classes had access to a lavatory and were lit with electric lamps using Stone's system and were 36-foot (11 m) long. The carriages were on six wheels, and appeared in 1896" or something similar.
• "lit by electric lamps and steam heating" -- lit by steam heating?
• Note F needs an ending citation.

That's it, review finished. This was a pleasure to read and deserves the gold star. I look forward to your resolving comments. Reviewing this reminded me of one of my favourite films. -- Cassianto^Talk 22:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for your time.
• Note F is saying there is a conflict between two sources, which I have linked using {{harvtxt}}. I'm thinking that ^[12] linking to these same references is redundant.
• Some things still to finish up, will be back when I'm done. Edgepedia (talk) 06:26, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Changes here, here and here. I think I've covered everything, have I missed anything? Edgepedia (talk) 14:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support – per resolved comments. Thank you for bringing this interesting article up to FA quality. -- Cassianto^Talk 18:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Edgepedia (talk) 10:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods, and those that are should
• File:Gordon_Highlander_steam_locomotive.jpg: ideally we'd want an OTRS message to confirm this permission; same for File:Steam_train_at_Banff_station.jpg
• File:Cruden_Bay_Hotel_Tramway_car.jpg needs author's date of death and a US PD tag
• File:GNoSR_No._45_at_Darlington_in_1925.jpg: on what grounds do we assert that the US copyright is expired? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Nikkimaria, I found one full stop that should have been there.

I'll contact the uploader and see if we can get OTRS messages for those photos; I've removed the Tramway car photo as I've seen this where a W A Camwell that took photographs of tramways from the 1930s was still alive in 1986 (photograph at the bottom). I've left a note on the talk page of the image on commons for a week or so to see if there's a reply. I'll have a look at 1925 photo, yes this wasn't published before 1923! diff Edgepedia (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I've changed the US licence on File:GNoSR_No._45_at_Darlington_in_1925.jpg to {{PD-1996}}. Edgepedia (talk) 11:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Regarding File:Gordon_Highlander_steam_locomotive.jpg and File:Steam_train_at_Banff_station.jpg: Looking at comments on the uploader's talk page I think they did email something, but these emails haven't been matched with the photos. I've left a message there a couple of days ago, and will leave it a couple more days while I think about alternatives. Edgepedia (talk) 10:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I've swapped out these two images, one with a post card I've bought. I'll pursue the licencing issues on commons, but I don't want to hold up this FAC. Can you check again please? Edgepedia (talk) 06:30, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

With thanks to User:Sphilbrick, who found the OTRS message confirming permission, we have the Gordon Highlander back! Edgepedia (talk) 15:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

and I've restored the colour photo of Banff now we have received permission. Edgepedia (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Further comments

• Support Comments - taking a look now. I'll make straightforward copyedits as I go and jot notes below - Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The early expansion was followed by a period of forced economy, but the railway was refurbished in the early 1880s, express services began and by the end of that decade there was a suburban service in Aberdeen. - bit of a flow problem here - are the last two points part of the refurbishment? If so then an mdash would be good between them and the 1880s segment rather than a comma, or reword as "The early expansion was followed by a period of forced economy, but the railway was refurbished in the early 1880s, resulting in express services and by the end of that decade a suburban service in Aberdeen."

Although the items are connected - the refurbishment had to come first - it's a list of what happened in the 1880s. Does this flow better? Edgepedia (talk) 08:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Powers for a longer, but cheaper, route between the two towns were secured on 25 May 1860. - "Plans"?

I'm pretty sure that "powers" is correct. Public railways in the UK needed to secure an Act of Parliament (see my comments of 22:09, 5 September 2013 above) even for extensions to an existing line; such an Act grants the necessary powers. The plans will have been prepared before presenting the bill to Parliament. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

ok - maybe "powers" needs to be linked or explained then.Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:30, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the building of the sixth or seventh railway in a sequence; before I've used permission and authorised. Is powers so different or is there a better word (without repeating myself)? I think linking this far into the article would run into OVERLINK problems, so I've clarified the process in the first section, linking some more words after Central London Railway, see here. Edgepedia (talk) 08:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

extension of the line to Dufftown into Strathspey was (sought and) obtained on 17 May 1861 - can trim bracketed bit as implied by verb "obtained" (as work must have been done to get it) - "achieved" is a verb which might work better.

I don't think so, see my post above. The date concerned is that upon which Royal Assent was given. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The gradients were not severe, but the line required three bridges over the Spey, together with many of the river's tributaries - does this mean 3 bridges over all of them, or 3 over the Spey and more over the tributaries?

Clarification here. Edgepedia (talk) 08:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

complaining that they were not paying. - who were not paying...or does it mean the lines were not profitable?

By not paying I meant the services were not profitable. Change here. Edgepedia (talk) 08:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok - prose is good overall, flowing better in locomotive section. Possibly a few "and" run-on clauses could be tweaked but no real deal-breakers. Just a few queries above and we're over the line. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Changes and comments above. Edgepedia (talk) 08:21, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Source review Just a few things

• Footnote 128 ("History". Inverurie Loco Works F.C. Retrieved 21 June 2013.). Should disclose it is a reprinted news story.

done here

• According to this, source 158 is a wiki. Why is it reliable?

replaced with the Working Timetable from National Rail here

• I don't see any evidence of editorial review in the two sources 214 ("GNOSR No. 34". Stately Trains. Retrieved 27 July 2013.

and "Vintage Railway Carriages, Cinderellas or Saviours: GNOSR No. 34". Stately Trains. Retrieved 27 July 2013.). These seem to be the effort of one person. Do they satisfy WP:RS?

I've simplified the text and replace one of the pages with a page from the railway that runs the trains here.

• I would recommend web archiving some of these small organisation web sites that might be subject to changes.
• The capitalisation of titles in the "Books" section seems inconsistent.
• On the first external link, where are you getting the stated title of that web page from?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Clarified here

I'll look at the web archiving and book titles tonight. Edgepedia (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - I've archived what I think are the webpages that are relied on for historical information. I didn't archive the current information, as I don't think an archive could be a reliable source for what is currently happening with the railway, the heritage railways or rolling stock.

I've also tidied up the book names. Looking at Butt on amazon, it appears that only the first letter of the sub-title is capitalised. I've standardised the formatting of the series titles and volume numbers. Edgepedia (talk) 17:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.