Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stjepan Vukčić Kosača/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 9 November 2022 [1].

Stjepan Vukčić Kosača[edit]

Nominator(s): ౪ Santa ౪^99° 07:14, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... one of the most prominent Bosnian magnates, who was Grand Duke of Bosnia, and who greatly influenced his country's politic, just as much that of its neighbors. He was in diplomatic contact with all the major players of medieval Europe of his time, from South Italy, to Budim, until his and his country's demise was sealed under the military pressure from the Ottoman advancement. His legacy left the permanent mark on his country, which today bears his noble title, "Herzeg", as part of its official name - Bosnia and Herzegovina, while town in what is today Montenegro bears his name Herceg Novi as well.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 07:14, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Suggest scaling up all maps and the book covers
Don't use fixed px size
Suggest adding alt text
Check grammar of captions
File:Atlas_Van_der_Hagen-_IlIyricvm_Sclavoniam-_Bosnam_Dalmatiam_Slavoniam_Croatiam.jpg needs a US tag
File:St._Blaise_-_State_Flag_of_the_Ragusan_Republic.svg: what's the copyright status of the original work and what is the source underlying this version?
File:Stefan_Vukcic_and_the_war_in_Zeta_1441-es.svg needs a legend, and see MOS:COLOUR
Bosnia does not have freedom of panorama so tags will be needed for architectural works there. Ditto Montenegro
File:Bosna_regija.jpg needs a more reliable source for the data presented
File:Ključ,_Gacko.jpg: source link is dead; where was this first published?
File:S.cirkovic_1964_book_cover.png is not appropriately justified for inclusion here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:49, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria, thanks for taking my nomination into consideration. In my first try I made some adjustments as following: map images are scaled up a bit; fixed px are removed; alt txt is added; I checked grammar in captions to the best of my ability; File:Atlas_Van_der_Hagen-_IlIyricvm_Sclavoniam-_Bosnam_Dalmatiam_Slavoniam_Croatiam.jpg is actually illustration of template, but I am not sure how to add this US tag anyway - advice would be appreciated; File:Stefan_Vukcic_and_the_war_in_Zeta_1441-es.svg should be opened and adjusted in some svg software, but at the end, if I find that difficult for whatever reason, then, map can be removed; File:Ključ,_Gacko.jpg: and File:Bosna_regija.jpg now have sources; File:S.cirkovic_1964_book_cover.png is the main source of this article. I left for last issue of panorama - if I understood properly, it concerns two images of Herceg -Novi(?), with one being photo of a town from the sea very far away, and other is photo of the fortress wall. But, regardless, you mentioned that "tags will be needed for architectural works there", and I am not sure what you mean by that, so again, advice would be greatly appreciated. That is for now, and if I missed something or my intervention is inadequate, please leave a comment or advice. Thanks again, and I hope you will be able to offer some further assistance. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You look to be using fixed px still for scaling - instead you can use |upright= to do that. See MOS:UPRIGHT.

If you're not able to adjust the map yourself you can ask at WP:MAPREQ.

For adding tags of any kind, you go to the image description page at Wikimedia Commons and add an appropriate tag from commons:Commons:Copyright_tags. Which tag is appropriate is going to depend on details like where and when the work was first published. Generally speaking you're going to want tagging to represent the copyright status of all works (eg if you have a photo of a building, you need a tag for the building and a tag for the photo) as well as the copyright status of works in their country of origin and the US.

Being a source for this article doesn't necessarily mean that an image of a book cover is appropriately justified. See WP:NFCC for an outline of what needs to be considered. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikki. Please, would you check File:Atlas_Van_der_Hagen-_IlIyricvm_Sclavoniam-_Bosnam_Dalmatiam_Slavoniam_Croatiam.jpg if I am using proper US tag? I applied |upright= parameter where they were needed. I still struggling with Inkscape in attempt to adjust the map of military operations in Zeta myself, but if it turns out to be too complicated for me, then I'll ask the map workshop for help. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:09, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review. Opposing and recommending withdrawal.

I have a soft spot for both first time FAC nominators and Balkan military history, so I hate to be "that editor", but this has clearly not been adequately prepared for FAC. Santasa99, can I draw your attention to the top of the FAC page, where you will find "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination." I assume you didn't do this. The article would also benefit from a visit to both Wikipedia:Peer review and Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests.

Taking a random paragraph - the one starting "At the beginning of 1440 ..." - a non-exhaustive list of issues includes:

"Radislav Pavlović situation". Needs a possessive.
"during a campaigns". Either 'during a campaign' or 'during the campaigns '.
"sultan" should have an upper case S at both mentions.
"new negotiations commenced between the "two main eyes of the Bosnian kingdom", as the Ragusans used to say while trying to mediate truce by engaging with Stjepan." What does the quote mean? Why did the Ragusans used to say it? Did they only say it while simultaneously negotiating truces, as the text implies?
"while trying to mediate truce" → 'while trying to mediate a truce'.
"again" is used three times, including twice in one sentence.
"Already in March 1440". Delete "1440", you have already said what year it is at the start of the paragraph. And what purpose does "Already" serve? I suggest deleting it.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:31, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick reply - I was extremely busy over the weekend so I only managed a few brief visits to the project and only had a few moments to spare on image files.

Anyhow, the article is BIO of a Balkan medieval nobleman, not strictly speaking a "Balkan military history", which has significantly different connotations. It is, further, very important to emphasize that a copy-editing was performed twice by the editor(s) from the guild. It could happen, however, that prose added afterwards requires additional grammar checks and corrections, but hopefully not in any significant amount that would require another copy-editing via request at the guild.

As for mentoring, now that you mention it, I realize that it was an option for me, which I was aware of but had completely forgotten about it at the moment of nomination. As for peer-review, I had some inputs from editor(s) in good standing and with an extensive experience in editing on medieval history articles, especially medieval European nobility, who also use Serbo-Croatian as their first language (Surtiscna), so, in a way, a peer review, at least informal, was taken into account (I even considered asking Surtiscna that we nominate article together, but it felt too intrusive and overly demanding to ask for an engagement of such magnitude).

At this point, I'd prefer to ask for an assistance of volunteer mentor, but without withdrawing this nomination, especially if the only concerns are those related to grammar in prose inserted after copy-editing was performed.

So, let me emphasize that everything written before 20 May 2021 is copy-edited by Twofingered Typist whose last edit was on 8 May 2021. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 23:59, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild, I fixed the listed issues, and if you could make additional suggestions maybe grammatical mistakes and awkward phrasing could be corrected without a new round of copy-editing. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 19:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Santasa99 and apologies if I wasn't clear. My partial review of one short paragraph was by way of illustration. There are, IMO, large parts of the prose which either are not MoS compliant or do not meet the - admittedly high - FA criteria of being "engaging and of a professional standard". To the extent that, IMO, it is not appropriate to resolve them at FAC. Which is why I suggested that you find a FAC-experienced mentor and consider both PR and another run through GoCER. (It is more than 18 months since 2FT went through it.) I am afraid that my oppose stands. While it is for an unrecused coordinator to decide whether you could improve the article with the help of a mentor while it is at FAC, this would be unusual; the normal approach is that editors should take their time and avoid unnecessary pressure. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:22, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if we're looking at another round of copyediting and a mentor (and certainly if we're looking at PR, which must be run separately to a FAC nom) then best we close this, make the improvements away from the pressure of the FAC process and return with a new nom after the usual two-week break. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 18:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.