Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Segrave Trophy/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2017 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Segrave Trophy

Featured list candidates/Segrave Trophy/archive1

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I genuinely loved doing this list. A fascinating early history and some amazing individuals throughout. I gave it the TRM treatment, so MOS compliance should be there, lots of good refs, and some images for good measure. Thanks in advance to any of you interested enough to comment, much appreciated. I know I have a handful of other FLCs but they have at least three supports each, so "it's all okay"! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from BeatlesLedTV (talk) 16:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments from BeatlesLedTV

I centered the years for you.
Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unsort the citation column.
It's not sortable. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the Second World War → World War II
I'll leave it as the traditional British version. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Center every "no award" rowspan
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You think you should have references for years that didn't have awards? I feel it'd enhance the notability.
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ref(s) → Ref. unless you plan on having more than one ref per year.
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't like the amount of red links. However, I know that red links can be good in some cases so make sure they satisfy WP:REDLINK or I'd remove them.
I think they're fine. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the first sentence of the second paragraph in the lead needs a reference.
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I got right now. Great job! Can't wait for more. BeatlesLedTV (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BeatlesLedTV thanks, all done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Awesome, looks good to me. Happy to sign support. Great job! BeatlesLedTV (talk) 16:01, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rodw

An interesting list on a topic I know nothing about (so I have learned from it). A few minor queries:

~~Is there any way to rephrase "commissioned soon after his death after breaking the" for after..after?~~
Yes, done. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but the sentence " Segrave's wife had the trophy commissioned following his death after breaking the water speed record on Lake Windermere." could now be read as meaning his wife (her name would be nice) broke the record.— Rod ^talk 21:44, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reworded based on additional BBC source. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see the citations are quotes and therefore are correctly "word for word" but would wikilinks eg to places or plane types be useful to the reader?
That's probably a good idea, I need to refamiliarise myself with the MOS on quotes before I commit though... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~If you sort the Recipient column, all of the "No award" years come between Adrian Newey and Richard Noble which seems a bit strange~~
Fixed now hopefully. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~Ref 17 Segrave Trophy for Neville Duke from Flightglobal gives a CS1 error "|format= requires |url= "~~
Missing URL added. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The citation includes (pictured) for a couple where a pic of the plane is used but not in the Nigel Mansell ones where a car is shown - it might be better to include a portrait of him (eg File:Nigel Mansell - Mexican Grand Prix 01.JPG).
I agree. The point I was trying to get across was that this was Mansell in his Indy car, rather than his F1 car. Have added a pictured comment, is it enough? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So what are the cars in 1992 & 1993?— Rod ^talk 21:44, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, added that info. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have to dive out now but will look in more detail later.— Rod ^talk 19:57, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Rodw, I've addressed most of your initial concerns, I will need to re-read the MOS on links within quotes (I take your point wholeheartedly), and I'd like your opinion on the Mansell update. Plus, any further comments gratefully received. Cheers, The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rodw I've made as many pertinent links as possible, drawing on other FLs which do similar (Nobel Prizes). Anything else? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:19, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, works for me and I can now Support this list as meeting the criteria.— Rod ^talk 15:13, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from magiciandude

Very nice work on the list TRM! I've checked high and low on the prose, the deadlinks checker, and categories this article is pretty much flawless. I do have one question regarding this sentence: "A subsidiary award, the Segrave Medal, may also be given." The sentence is not clear on what the medal is given for. Is it an assistance award or an award to the designer of the vehicles? Erick (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Magiciandude:, brilliant. I've done a quick search on this and it's already revealed that I'm missing some information and winners, so I'll do a thorough trawl, update the prose relating to the substance of the medal, add entries where relevant, and then get back to you. Much appreciated. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Magiciandude:, I've expanded a little on this, and found a missing entry, added it to the key, added icons to the relevant years etc. I think that's about it, what do you think? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:19, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: Yep, that makes the recognition of the medal a lot more sense now. I now proudly support this list for FL. Great job! If you have time, would you mind commenting on my FLC for List of best-selling Latin albums in the United States? Erick (talk) 14:25, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from MWright96 (talk) 08:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

;

Comments from MWright96

"when she was cited for flight from London to Cape Town" - for her flight
Wikilink the following: Wolfgang Ullrich, Tom Kristensen and Loïc Duval.
With regards to the picture of Jackie Stewart, there is a cropped version which shows only him: [2]
"(pictured in the Williams F1 in Canada in 1998)." - that picture of Mansell's Williams F1 car is from 1988 not 1998.
"First Briton to win the Tourist Trophy," - the tourist trophy should be linked to the RAC Tourist Trophy sports car race and not the Isle of Man TT since McNish never competed in a professional motor cycle race during his career.

That's all the issues I found during my read-through. Good work so far! MWright96 (talk) 07:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MWright96 all done, thanks for your comments, and great spot on the cropped image. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:48, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support — Nothing else from me so I am more than happy to lend my support. MWright96 (talk) 08:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - can't see any issues..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ from JennyOz

Info box -

There's a great photo of the trophy at this page (2nd pic). Can we?
We can and went and already did... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Uses different template for website than you used for Laureus set. Either are OK?
Yep. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

"The Segrave Trophy is awarded to the British national..." - is confusing as 2 Aussies and 2 Kiwis in list, needs a note somewhere? RAC's main trophy page ie ref 1, doesn't mention 'British'. I see in article history it had British citizen then subject then national. Ref 3, ie trophy history, says Lady Segrave's wish was to "...celebrate and encourage British nationals".
Certainly a number of RS state that it's British nationals, and in the early days, those Aussies and Kiwis were at least British "subjects" so that's why they were eligible. I'll dig around for some more notes. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"...in the short-lived World Rally Championship Ladies Cup.[4] The award has been presented ..." - perhaps use 'Segrave Trophy' instead of 'The award' as the last award mentioned was the Ladies Cup.
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Peter du Cane - red link per Peter Du Cane?
Yes, linked. Will look at creating stub in due course. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

STUBTASTIC. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:01, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good job - now needs caps on du needed in prose JennyOz (talk) 16:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Peter du Cane recevied..." - received
Whoops, fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Mark Wilkinson received the medal in 2001 for his assistance to trophy winner Tim..." - swap "for his assistance" to 'as co-pilot'? ref here
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ellinson - spello, should be Ellison. (Is okay at 2001 in table)
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"... trophy winner Tim Ellinson and Lady Moss,..." - needs Oxford comma after Elli(n)son?
Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

starting on table now... JennyOz (talk) 06:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz ok, coolio, thanks. Just the "British national" thing to resolve from that list I think? Look forward to your table comments. Cheers, as always, for your generous support of my efforts with your diligent reviews. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jenny, I found what I was looking for with relation to the Aus/British national piece: have a look at Charles Kingsford Smith where he's introduced as an Australian but the infobox calls him a British subject. I have plenty of sources to back up the requirement for being a British national to receive the Segrave Trophy but my understanding of the complexities of citizenship laws from the 1930s around the United Kingdom and its glorious Empire is limited. Do you have a suggestion for the way ahead? I could always ditch the nationality column but I actually thought it interesting that the early winners weren't actually from this green and pleasant land.... The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No fear! Don't even think about removing the Nationality column:) Yep, I understand re "subjects" until 1940s (both Aust and NZ). I'd actually looked at Smithy's article to check if there was mention of the Trophy. There could be more but I don't remember ever seeing another Aust bio with "British subject" in its infobox for nationality/citizenship. I see an IP added it on 3 Aug 2011. (Maybe later I'll ask at our noticeboard re Kingsford Smith but not important for here.)

What I couldn't understand was Bruce McLaren receiving Segrave in 1969. But now I see, after reading fuller citation here which includes "...and thus upholding British prestige before the world." and per Can-Am link, it's the team that's British even though drivers rightly recognised as New Zealanders.

My suggestion would be a simple note below table something along the lines of: "At the time of winning, the Australians Kingsford Smith and Hinkler, and New Zealander Batten, were also considered British subjects. New Zealander McLaren's award was after NZ's Citizenship Act of 1948 but he was recognised as his McLaren Team was British-based."? JennyOz (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Talking of Bruce McLaren, his ref (30 stuff.co.nz) says that McLaren's fellow Kiwis, his chief mechanic Cary Taylor and Denny Hulme, were both given the Segrave medal alongside Bruce's trophy 1969. See text above and below the photo of... the medal. RAC have missed adding it to their site.

Will get back to table hopefully tomorrow, JennyOz (talk) 16:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz hi Jenny, thanks again, I think I've addressed your latest comments (including getting the right link for Du Cane!!), delighted to hear more from you. Cheers, The Rambling Man (talk) 08:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again, all above is great thanks. Not sure you're going to be 'delighted' now though:) It's taken a bit longer than i anticipated to finish looking at the table as i kept coming up against conflicts of info - not your doing but errors in refs and, as we saw for 1969 medals, the RAC site itself has info missing. I just hope you can understand my notes.

Table

1930 Smith - ref 7 aust dict biography doesn't mention trophy, need to use a separate one here this should do. (You know where to grab the already formatted WP cite from Trove pages? Click on the circle i (information) icon at top left of left hand pane then scroll to bottom.)
1936 Batten - ref 16 has same url as Eyston (ref 15), should be /1136708
1949 and 1950 - this confirms not awarded (just in case wondering if RAC has right.)
1968 Wallis - his obit ref 30 incorrectly says 1969 (is correct for 1985). use the rac past winners here?
1978 Cunningham - his ref also mentions year of presentation instead of award
1990 - red link cap L on ladies
2013 Surtees - should be 2012. The motorsportmag ref is March 2013 but seems that was written a week after the actual presentation (not year on actual award). RAC has Surtees at 2012 and here and here have 2012 too.
2014 McNish - should be 2013. The motorsportmag ref is June 14 but talks of 2013 his last year, and his article supports the 3 wins in 2013. And this.
2014 re Medal - should be 2013. The ref 8 media release is dated April 2014 so, like in most previous years, it is announced/presented in first half of year for the previous year's trophy? There's [3] this and this shows McNish with the trophy and his non-Brits with their medals. That one is dated April 2014 so presentation for 2013. (I don't know if these are RS or not.)

RAC past winners is therefore incorrect by missing 2013s altogether?

I think not awarded 2014. McGuinness 2015 is correct (announced March 2016). Not awarded 2016.

Some poss photos I came across while checking dates. Use or ignore, no problem.

1938 - at gardner 1, 2, 3, 4

1946 - geoffrey de havilland 1, 2

1948 - john derry 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Could possibly add a sentence to prose on design and designer Gilbert Bayes? Bits per here and here and here and here.

Refs

Refs 4 and 10 (RAC Past Winners) - are same url.
Ref 26 and 29 David Trenayne - (same book), spello Tremayne and authorlink
Ref 34 Taylor Simon - authorlink Simon Taylor (journalist)

That's it I reckon. JennyOz (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz, thanks again! I have no problem at all with you providing these comments, there's little point in us claiming that this list could be featured standard if it's simply not, so thanks for you diligence and patience. I have a few things to attend to but will hopefully address these before I go to bed (we've just had a dumpload of snow and, as you expect from the Brits, we can't handle it, so making arrangements for work, kids etc!) The Rambling Man (talk) 19:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz I think I've done the majority there. The images I'd be delighted to upload but what licensing arrangement would they have, is there a PD-AUS kind of thing? If you could help me with that I'd be happy to try to upload them suitably. I guess one thing you'd question would be formatting of Trove refs, since I started using those you recommended, so they're not actually internally consistent any longer. I'll go back and resolve those now, just in case. Seems a shame that Trove won't get a link there... Cheers again. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's now done, all Trove links use the recommended cite format, minus a few MOS issues they haven't worked out yet. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I've uploaded three images based on your suggestions with (hopefully) appropriate PD-AUS licensing. Thanks so much for the suggestions. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ha! Was just about to suggest that licence. I have no experience with images but saw some similar time period, taken from Trove, over in commons using that. Fantastic. Finally checked the citations column today. Here are my last comments...

1903 Smithy's citation - move full stop inside the quote marks
1934 Waller - Speeds all converted, how about km distance at "For his 4,000-mile flight..."
1937 Clouston - "For his flight with[Betty Kirby-Green in..." swap bracket for a space

That's me done! JennyOz (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz final tweaks made, thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 09:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful work. Another polished trophy for the cabinet! Hope you're coping with the snow. It's a lovely summer over here, perfect for ~~playing cric...~~ (whoops, sorry I forgot), perfect for barbecues. Very happy to sign support. JennyOz (talk) 10:34, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008, PresN, this now has six unqualified supports, no outstanding issues, could one of you do the honours if you're happy with sourcing (although Jenny usually goes through them all anyway). The Rambling Man (talk) 15:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: Will get here shortly; I've been MIA for a few weeks so I'm going to try to do a bug sweep of source reviews today, starting from the bottom of the FLC list. --Pres N 15:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, source review passed, promoting. --Pres N 16:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.