Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Christopher Lekapenos

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hog Farm (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Christopher Lekapenos[edit]

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Nominator(s): Unlimitedlead (talk), Iazyges (talk)

Christopher Lekapenos (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I am nominating this article for A-Class review because while it is short, I belive that Wikipedia's biography on Christopher Lekapenos is comprehensive enough, given the limited amount of sources we have extant. This is my first A-class review, so please bear with me; I am ready to make adjustments to the article according to everyone's comments! Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:09, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This looks to me more like your run-of-the-mill GA article to me - and the Bot agrees with me. Nonetheless, we can proceed.

Image review - pass[edit]

  • Two images, both ancient - license okay
  • Remove the hard-coded image sizes

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've taken care of these image issues; I'll take care of the source review sometime tomorrow. Please let me know if the image review is not yet satisfied. Thanks, Unlimitedlead (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rush. It takes ages for an article to pass through A-class these days. I've removed the hard-coded image size for you. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

  • fn 1: No need to link the doi; it is already linked by the doi card
  • fn 1: Do we have an ISSN?
  • fn 1: Remove the ref card - this will suppress a CS1 warning about it being the default
    • Hi, I'm not sure what this means. Can you help me on that? Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 10, 15: location? publisher?
    • I added the publisher for fn 10, but was unable to find a location for it. As for fn 15, I just replaced it with citations from Runciman 1988. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:06, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 10 is iconsistently formatted. Use the cite template like the other references
  • Grierson & Bellinger (1973): Publisher?
  • Kadzan, Runciman: Location?
  • Lilie: Is not used. Suggest removal to the Further Reading section

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @Hawkeye7. I think I've addressed all your comments, save for two that I don't quite understand. Could you please specify what you mean on your first and third comments? I apologize for any inconvenience. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. fn 1 read:

{{Cite journal|last=Gratziou|first=Olga|date=1997|title=Evidence on the Users of the Zonaras Codex at Modena|journal=Δελτίον της Χριστιανικής Αρχαιολογικής Εταιρείας|volume=19|issue=5–6|page=39–62 (48)|issn=2241-2190|doi=10.12681/dchae.1162|doi-access=free|language=el|ref=CITEREFGratziou1997}}

This created a warning message that the ref card was already the default (if you have the appropriate warnings switched on):

{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: ref duplicates default (link)

So I removed the ref card:

{{Cite journal|last=Gratziou|first=Olga|date=1997|title=Evidence on the Users of the Zonaras Codex at Modena|journal=Δελτίον της Χριστιανικής Αρχαιολογικής Εταιρείας|volume=19|issue=5–6|page=39–62 (48)|issn=2241-2190|doi=10.12681/dchae.1162|doi-access=free|language=el}}

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see now. Thanks! Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Brief comment[edit]

Please excuse my ignorance on the topic. So Christopher was co-emperor under Romanos I Lekapenos, right? Is there anyway to make this seniority clearer in the infobox? At the moment, it appears that they were all of the same stature, though maybe that is true? Also, what is the rationale for not including his predecessor(s) and successor(s) in the IB? Aza24 (talk) 09:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24, I have made edits to the infobox according to your comment. Please let me know what you think. As a side note: if anyone thinks that it could benefit from a little collapsing, I can do that too. Unlimitedlead (talk) 12:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think it makes more sense now. I will add that I do wonder if a more specific page number could be used for Gratziou – Aza24 (talk) 03:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just went into the source code. Turns out, there are page numbers already: "...|pp=39–62 (48)|..." Unlimitedlead (talk) 03:57, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24 @Unlimitedlead I have a suggestion, feel free to disagree. Right now I feel the infobox has too many repeated names (I assume that was the reason the succession section was originally omitted). Maybe the succession title could be changed to "Byzantine co-emperor (under Romanos I)", similar to Theodosius (son of Maurice), with the rest of co-emperors listed below. That way the seniority of Romanos is made clear and there is no need to repeat the names; also the lead already explains that Constantine and Stephen continued to be emperors after him. Tintero21 (talk) 20:26, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Tintero21 @Iazyges I have attempted this, but feel free to make some revisions. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

  • "File:Romanos I & Christopher (reverse).jpg" needs a guess what?
Sigh. This always happens to me. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:32, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just copy what Iazyges did, or see the example I gave. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:15, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after Romanos assumed the position of basileopator." This is the English language Wikipedia.
  • "Romanos, in order to give his family precedence over the Macedonian line, raised Christopher to co-emperor". Mention that Romanos had become emperor, and either briefly mention what the Macedonian line was and why one might want precedence over it, or drop that bit.
  • "his brothers overthrew and exiled his father". "his" → 'their'.
  • "the wealthy patrikios Niketas". A reader should not need a translation service.
  • Delete "Furthermore".
  • "in 924, Christopher's younger brothers Stephen and Constantine had also been crowned as co-emperors". Any reason why this couldn't be mentioned in chronological order?
  • "The motive behind this". Behind what? The banishment?
  • Delete "In any event".
  • 'who shed tears "like the Egyptians"'. The MoS states "[t]he source must be named in article text if the quotation is an opinion". Emphasis in original.
The sources I am using do not attribute the quote to anyone in particular. @Iazyges, do you have any idea where the quote is from?
Runciman says something a little different "Romanos wept 'more than the Egyptians'" and cites it. But I can't see who to. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If @Iazyges cannot find a source for that either, then I suppose we'll have to remove it. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's attributed to Theophanes Continuatus; added attribution in text. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:57, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After Christopher's death, he was succeeded by" → 'Christopher was succeeded by'.
  • "forcing him to live in a monastery on Prince's Islands". I assume that he only lived on one of the Islands? And is it known where they were located?
The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium says that Romanos died on the island of Prote. Once of the Prince's Islands, Kınalıada, is described as "(meaning "Henna Island" in Turkish, named after the colour of its earth; Greek: Πρώτη, romanized: Prōtē, "First")" on Wikipedia. This may be the same island, but nothing is conclusive.
See Princes' Islands. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since we don't know definitively which island is being talked about, is the current state of the sentence alright? I'll continue digging, of course, but I don't think I'll find anything. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. And I don't care about the name of the individual island. Try 'forcing him to live in a monastery on one of the Prince's Islands'. (Note the link.) Or similar. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:29, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Sorry. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does "Irene" become "Eirene"?
  • "magistros and rhaiktor". Again, what does this mean?
  • Irene's marriage. It may be worth mentioning that it was highly unusual for an imperial princess to marry outside the Empire - it hadn't happened for 500 years.
  • Norwich writes well of Christopher's abilities. Unlike those of his brothers. Worth mentioning?
I apologize for asking this, but who is Norwich? I don't see that name among the sources.
John Julius Norwich. Author of a slightly non-academic three-volume history of Byzantium. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I don't have access to that source, but maybe @Iazyges can help with that. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I enjoyed that one. Took me back. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: All should be done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:41, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All done or replied to. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:26, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Parthian shot: in the infobox, why are Constantine and Stephen Wiki-linked at second mention? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:51, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Constantine[edit]

Will have a look over the next few days. Constantine ✍ 14:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Disclaimer: as the bulk of the text is in essence the same article I wrote in 2010, there is a slight conflict of interest in reviewing this. I will limit myself to comments and endorsement in prose only, as well as the content and sourcing of the parts that were added after 2010.
  • Why Eastern Roman Empire? WP:COMMONNAME and the rest of the article suggest using 'Byzantine' consistently
  • over the Macedonian line 'over Constantine VII's Macedonian line'
  • 'patrician' for 'patrikios' is problematic; it would be understood by an English-speaker as indicating noble descent and membership of a patrician class, but here it is simply a title in the imperial hierarchy, one could be born a peasant and become a patrikios (and this did indeed happen often). I would suggest to simply rephrase this as 'of Niketas, a wealthy Slav from the Peloponnese who held the high court rank of patrikios' or similar.
    • Please use the template {{transliteration|grc|}} for all Greek terms. Constantine ✍ 08:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • When Romanos succeeded in having his daughter Helena Lekapene married to the young emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos in spring 919 and assumed the role of guardian of the emperor with the title basileopator, Christopher succeeded him in his post as megas hetaireiarches, commander of the palace guard run-on sentences. I would suggest splitting after 'basileopator', and starting with 'In 919, Romanos...'. Also, replace 'young' with the precise age of Constantine VII
  • Add that Romanos also raised his wife to the imperial rank of Augusta after mentioning his own coronation.
  • I have stated my opposition to using Norwich in previous reviews. I won't require removing his assessment, as it sort of fits with the image the sources portray, but would feel better if other sources could be used instead.
    It was added at suggestion of Gog; I have tended to eschew Norwich since you made the recommendation to do so, but I think the summary is useful, and he isn't relied upon other than that. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prince's Islands -> 'Princes' Islands', and specifically Prote, IIRC.
    Done.
  • The reference for Lilie is incorrect: it is not the Prosopography of the Byzantine World, but the Prosopographie der mittelbyzantinischen Zeit, and not Konstantinos, but Christophoros. I suggest using the template:Prosopographie der mittelbyzantinischen Zeit here, and strongly recommend including the source in the article.
    Added; doing.

That's it for now. Constantine ✍ 12:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas @Iazyges I have taken care of the first five comments (except that I was only able to specify that Constantine was a teenager at the time). Unfortunately, I am too occupied to deal with the rest of your points in a timely manner. If Iazyges likewise is too busy, I will do it by sometime next week, but until then, I apologize for not being avaliable here. Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead: Simple age calculations are permissible (we know the year and time of both events, so we can calculate age from there). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: Should all be done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much. I've been swamped recently. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead and Iazyges: Thanks for the swift response. Almost done, just a few minor issues remaining. Constantine ✍ 08:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: should all be done now; although I used lang instead of transliteration because of the shared alphabet and for consistency. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 09:59, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unlimitedlead and Iazyges: the 'lang' template for transliterated Greek terms is simply incorrect. 'Patrikios' is not in the Greek language, it is transliterated from the Greek language. Will move to support now, but please fix this. Constantine ✍ 13:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting Comments by Sturmvogel_66[edit]

  • Already before his father's rise to power, he had been married to Sophia, the daughter of Niketas, a wealthy Slav from the Peloponnese who held the high court rank of patrikios. Awkward
  • over Constantine VII's Macedonian line to which Constantine belonged so's this
  • Otherwise looks fine--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sturmvogel 66: Both have been rephrased. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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