Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages

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WikiProject Manual of Style
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Applicability of WP:DABMENTION[edit]

A discussion of the applicability of WP:DABMENTION where synonymy is claimed may be of interest. See Talk:Plute and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 December 29#Plute. olderwiser 16:24, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

disambiguating to a page not discussing the DAB topic[edit]

On 29 December 2017, at 05:04, I removed the redirect WAPO (FM) from the disambiguation page at WAPO. On 14 January 2018 at 18:30, Mlaffs (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) undid my edit, saying "WAPO is an FCC-licensed radio station owned by American Family Association; redirect is to American Family Radio, the programming provided by that organization".

According to this MOS, disambiguation pages should only link to redirects when "used to link to a specific section of an article if the title of that section is more or less synonymous with the disambiguated topic", when "the redirect target article contains the disambiguated term", when "the primary topic is a redirect", or when "linking to another disambiguation page." I don't see any of those use cases applying at WAPO. — fourthords | =Λ= | 14:22, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

P.S. On 17 January 2018 at 18:27, I posted this same message to Mlaffs' talk page, but they've both not responded, and continued editing. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Disambiguation is a navigation tool for leading readers to the articles where a topic if described. If the WAPO is well-known enough to appear in the disambiguation page, it probably has enough WP:DUE WEIGHT to be at least mentioned at their owner's article.
While redirects from a DAB page need a whole section to link to, there's no need to use a redirect to guide readers to the target article. Assuming the AFR mentioned WAPO, we could place the link to that article with this style (per MOS:DABMENTION):
If we expect that WAPO might have its own article created in the future, we could even make it a redlink per MOS:DABRED. Diego (talk) 14:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Note that American Family Association only briefly mentions radio stations and links to American Family Radio which doesnt actually mention WAPO. MilborneOne (talk) 14:45, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Ideal resolutions would be either
  1. Addition of a mention of WAPO on the target article of WAPO (FM) or
  2. Deletion of the redirect WAPO (FM) since the target article gives no info about it.
In the current state, yeah, it's a problematic disambiguation question, but I'd still leave the link as long as the redirect remains undeleted. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:05, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, fourthords — saw the note, but got distracted and forgot to respond. Best solution would be to add a chart of the AFA-owned stations to the AFR article, similar to what's been done on the articles of a lot of other religious broadcasters where all of their stations rebroadcast the same programming source. Takes a bit of effort, which I'm prepared to do but hadn't yet had the time to. Can probably take care of it over the weekend, though, which would resolve the concern (and many other similar redirects that are likely out there). Mlaffs (talk) 01:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Seeking clarification on DABNAME[edit]

The disambiguation page Berber includes entries for several people whose surname is/was Berber. Please see the disagreement between me and Xezbeth over the course of the edits [1], [2], [3], and [4], where I removed these names pursuant to my understanding of MOS:DABNAME, and Xezbeth restored these entries. Also, see the remarks I left at Talk:Berber#Surnames at the same time as Xezbeth's second reversion. As I reasoned, "To be clear, I'm not reading the sentence at MOS:DABNAME that begins "For short lists of name holders" as though this were preceded by 'Now, ignore the previous sentence and, instead ...'. I'm understanding that these sublists are of names that conform to the first sentence."

Now I've figured I should come here and check whether my understanding is consistent with the intent. Whether it is or isn't, I recommend that someone edit the guideline to clarify the relationship between the first sentence in the paragraph ("Persons who have the ambiguous term ...") and the following sentences. Do we understand the premise behind the sentences after the first one to be "If you don't feel like complying with the first sentence" or "If, after complying with the first sentence, you still have more than one Elvis ..."? The latter would apply to cases like Assad, where a user coming upon a reference to "the Assad government" might come here looking for Assad without the reference having specified whether it's Bashar el-Assad or Hafez el-Assad. Largoplazo (talk) 11:48, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I think your understanding of this sentence:
"Persons who have the ambiguous term as surname or given name should be listed in the body of the disambiguation page only if they are frequently referred to simply by the single name (e.g., Elvis, Shakespeare)."
may misunderstand the "in the body" section. If we reach this part:
"For short lists of name holders, new sections of Persons with the surname Xxxx or Persons with the given name Xxxx can be added below the main disambiguation list."
that indicates the this list of name holders who don't fit the first sentence can be listed, not in the body (in the part that "may refer to"), but in a separate section "People with the surname" below the body (below even any "Other uses" section of things actually ambiguous). -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:26, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
If your statement of the intended guidance is correct (and I have no complaint if it is), then the guideline needs rewording, because it's contradictory as currently written. The body of any article consists of all its sections, the untitled lead section and any subsequent titled sections. A section doesn't stand outside the body, it's part of it (well, except perhaps for sections that contain end matter, like See also, References, and External links). Largoplazo (talk) 13:57, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I took a crack at it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:16, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Looking good, thanks! Largoplazo (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
It all appears to be sorted out, but just a note about why things are the way they are, and apologies for stating the obvious: even people who aren't, like Shakespeare, referred to solely by their surname in sufficiently generic contexts do get referred to by their surname in various less generic contexts. Surname indexes do serve a disambiguation purpose. The only difference is when there exists a dedicated article about the surname: in that case, the people will be listed there and the corresponding dab page will only include the Elvises and the Shakespeares. If such an article doesn't exist, then all the people are listed on the dab page. – Uanfala (talk) 15:32, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Links[edit]

Pr this edit an editor removes a link pr WP:MOSDAB.

Alas, the way I read it, when the Operation was a joint operation between Mossad and Shurat HaDin, we link both, not just one. Comments? Huldra (talk) 23:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

If both articles are equally relevant, then there's no reason to arbitrarily unlink one of them. There probably are niceties in measuring relevance though: I suspect that for most people the most important criterion is the amount of relevant content in each of the articles. If, as in this case, there's little such content, I would opine that it make sense to use considerations of topic structure (e.g. the operation being a joint one) that are independent of the current state of the articles. Anyway, the question has been discussed before, there's at least this discussion from 2016. – Uanfala (talk) 01:22, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
But both articles are not equally relevant here. Notably, on of them (Mossad) doesn't even mention the DAB topic. Attack Ramon (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Attack Ramon That is only because I haven't had the time to add it, yet! And you are not even allowed to edit in the topic! (not until you have 500 edits), so please undo your edits, or risk being reported..Huldra (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
How about you first add relevant stuff, then send people to it? Attack Ramon (talk)
Done. Now, User:Attack Ramon, you better revert, or my next edit will be reporting you, Huldra (talk) 23:15, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Report me? to whom? for what? Attack Ramon (talk) 23:18, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Attack Ramon, For editing article relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict, even though you have less than 500 edits. WP:AE is the place, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
But I have not edited such articles. I edited a disambiguation page. Attack Ramon (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Lol, Good luck in arguing that removing a link to Mossad in Operation Harpoon is not related to the Arab–Israeli conflict! Last warning: revert, or you will be reported Huldra (talk) 23:28, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
I find this bizarre, and your attitude combative, but since I don't wish to get into a pissing contest with you, ok. Let's deface the encyclopedia to make you happy. Attack Ramon (talk) 23:33, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Yep, the removal of the link was and is correct. I've re-removed the second blue link. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:17, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
The initial edit to remove the link to Mossad on this entry was correct, since we should always add content to articles first and then create appropriate links on disambiguation pages, not the other way around. I'm confused by Huldra's actions here though. It seems like you quickly added the information to Mossad simply to justify having the link on the disambiguation page. Can you explain why you especially want this link? It's a rare and special case to include two blue links for an entry when two pages happen to have more or less equal information on a topic, but here you seem to be trying to create such a special case rather than bolstering the information on a single page. Why is that? -- Fyrael (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I misread who was saying what at the start of this and now understand that Huldra thought two links were appropriate simply because it was a joint venture. Hopefully everyone is clear now about why two links is not ideal. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I would think that the entire conundrum could be easily resolved by creating an article on the relevant sense of "Operation Harpoon". bd2412 T 03:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Articles ("a", "the", etc) before individual entry descriptions[edit]

I feel like I'm going crazy but I vividly remember that the MOS for disambiguation pages said not to use articles like "a" and "the" before the description phrases, even just a couple year ago. Yet the article history for the MOS does not to suggest this even going back many years. Does this strike a bell with anybody? Do you know what I'm talking about or where I might have gotten this idea? Puzzled, Jason Quinn (talk) 12:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you thinking of the rule at MOS:DABPEOPLE which says "Do not include a, an or the before the description of the person's occupation or role."? PamD 17:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Possibly. I don't really know. I'm usually not so clueless that I would miss that that is only intended to apply to people. Usually. Your guess is as good as any at the moment. Thanks. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reason for that instruction? I'm in the opposite position, not remembering MOS:DABPEOPLE. To me, the example entry "John Adams (composer) (born 1947), American composer, came to prominence with Shaker Loops in 1978" seems somewhat inferior to "John Adams (composer) (born 1947), an American composer who came to prominence with Shaker Loops in 1978". Dekimasuよ! 19:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
This change references Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages/Archive 29#Lists containing people names - RFC. Which, granted, doesn't give much in the way of reasons. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

How to emphasize an entry[edit]

I'm looking at Basil (name) and would like to emphasize Basil of Caesarea as the most likely candidate for someone referred to in print simply as "Basil" However, I'm not sure how to do this. MOS:DAB forbids bolding entries for emphasis. I see some related discussions on this page's archives about Linking to the main article and Bolding links, but nothing seems quite relevant to my question. Daask (talk) 18:34, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Basil (name) isn't a disambiguation page; it's an anthroponymy article. The only emphasis on the disambiguation page Basil (disambiguation) is for the primary topic (which happens not to be a person). But that Basil, if commonly referred to in reliable sources as just "Basil", could be added (without emphasis) to the disambiguation page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:13, 17 May 2018 (UTC)