Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-05-08 Republic of Ireland

12 months

IMHO, whatever comes of this Mediation (at it's conclusion)? we should agree to not revisit this topic again, for another 12 months (if not droping the topic permanently). GoodDay (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. But - and here's my worry - it could take 12 months to figure this out. Not least because the "problem" is that "Ireland" really does have two totally legitimate meanings. And "Republic of Ireland" is already an accepted compromise to that problem. Not just here. But in the real-world as well. Hence what we are tasking mediation with is essentially solving a real world problem. This is a big ask. Anyway, I'll shut up now :) Guliolopez (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You've every right to give an opinon. All opinons on this topic are equally wanted & appreciated. GoodDay (talk) 19:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The interesting thing, to me, is that people on both sides of the fence and those on it appear sick of the debate....I agree with GoodDay. I frankly don't have much of a horse in the race and I'm /already/ sick of it :) Narson (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

This is your first time discussing this issue! How could you be sick of it?

Anyway I will agree to the results of this as long as the points made are taken seriously and not ignored as they are being so now.WikipÉire ^♣ 00:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hence the emphasis on already. It is a bloody stupid thing to be wasting time on. Narson (talk) 08:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Multiple Suggestions

I haven't put myself down as an involved party, because i don't visit the site regularly enough, but I do have a small suggestion as to where to start. Because multiple suggestions have been persistently put forward, perhaps the first task should be to list all suggestions(e.g. naming Ireland(state) vs. just Ireland, the need for a disambiguation page etc.), with as many combinations of solutions as is reasonably possible. Next make clear which solutions are clearly unworkable(e.g. in my view, changing ROI to Ireland, with no disambiguation, and as the primary page over Ireland(island)), and store this information for reference in future debates, instead of just telling people its been discussed before, show them a specific place where the mediation cabal decided the solution was unworkable. From there you will be back to the current situation where you are deciding between 2 alternatives, but you can concentrate on it, and have a solid basis for choosing only those 2 options. Unless of course a new and brilliant solution is suggested, but I think that's highly unlikely. Forgive me if this has already been done, I tuned out for some time. Ian Goggin (talk) 22:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Among the more recent discussion on this renaming topic, which have included discussions on what you propose, have been the following discussions; here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here, amongst others. Check them out for yourself and you will see what a waste of time this is. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ian, I'm sure your suggestion was made in good faith, but the point of mediation is surely that it has to be a step which the parties want to take. The key point here is that so far, nobody except Wikipéire (talk · contribs) wants mediation, and at least three of the listed parties have specifically said that they don't. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

User:GoodDay has agreed to mediation and there are still a lot of editors still to say something.WikipÉire ^♣ 00:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Concur; let's allow all the editors to weigh in. What's the panic? GoodDay (talk) 00:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The panic is the prospect of yet more time being wasted in pursuit of Wikipéire's fixation that his viewpoint represents The Truth. There are far better things for everyone to do with their time than rehash this for the ten thousandth time. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with BHG. The "harm" of yet another 100,000 words on this topic in a talkpage (to follow the 100,000 already logged in talk, usertalk, RfC, RM and elsewhere) is that it will be energies expended that could otherwise be used improving the project! This exercise will distract the energies of constructive editors from other positive pursuits. This probably doesn't bother Wikipéire - as he seems quite happy to spend 50% of his time flaming through a bunch of holy-wars on talkpages - but I'd personally rather do something constructive. Than rehash this again. I've already spoken to the user in question about (maybe) just leaving this point lie for a while, and doing something constructive (like adding something to an article or writing a new one). But, he has ignored my sugestion - in the same way that he has ignored other established users requests to stop trolling, sock-puppeting, engaging in 3RR wars, ignoring manuals of style, etc. And now, to add insult to injury, I find myself "invited" into an "arbitration" with a user who has previously ignored requests to compromise. It's the kind of (selective) wiki-lawyering BS that makes me think I should just spend more of my time on the GA project, and leave this wiki to the trolls. Guliolopez (talk) 10:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there is the possibility, I suppose, that mediation could lead to a final result. The cynic in me, however, fears that we will then have people wanting to change it back should it go in favour of Ireland and that the people who so strongly want it to be Ireland that we got to this point won't let it rest if it comes out in favour of RoI, having looked back over all the wasted time spent already on this subject. Narson (talk) 11:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure we will ever get a final resolution that suites everyone - their will be "winners" and "losers". "Republic of Ireland" is a simple, concise disambiguation {which has widespread common usage} - whilst disambiguations such as Ireland (republic), Ireland (state), Ireland (country) (to name a few possible) are clumsy and awkward particularily considering sub-articles {"Education of Ireland (state)", "Politics of Ireland (state)", etc, etc, etc} and the many and countless categories and templates that would be equally awkward and clumsy if changed.

If their is such a disgust and hate of Republic of Ireland then its only a matter of time before Ireland (state) becomes a target of a move - because as far as some hard-liners and pov-pushers are concerned their is only one, true Ireland. Djegan (talk) 11:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I see now (more then ever), that there's no inclinations towards compromise mediation & that there's not gonna be a consensus for changing Republic of Ireland. It's simply not gonna happen. GoodDay (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any suggestion of how a compromise could be possible. The only options I have seen are to rename to Ireland (state)/Ireland (country) OR keep it at Republic of Ireland; I can't see any third option. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Compromise? oops, I meant to say mediation. GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick point

Just a quickie. I've been mentioned as an involved party, but I don't believe I am. I haven't been involved with any of the discussions about moving this page. I do have an opinion on the matter, but I haven't shared it in any of the debates mentioned. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You were included because of you particpation in the discussion about the name on the uk talk page. If you feel that isn't applicable to the case, feel free to remove your name.WikipÉire ^♣ 22:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I don't think it is. I may have made some dabbing changes (example), but they're stylistic, navigational and backed up by certain conventions; they would've been the case no matter what the title of the article. Anyway, as you've said, I feel that contribution is not applicable, and I'm going to strike my name accordingly. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)