Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 21

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League of Ireland

I know its been discussed to death. But over the years many clubs have been professional, to the point around 2008 nearly every club in the top division was fully professional.

Here is an article discussing the contracts players have - top players making €3,500 per week a few seasons ago (relative to 2015), now making €1000 per week. Its a healthy professional wage. Not just the top players are paid, goes on to say alot of lads were making €500 to €600 per week now only making about €200 per week. All the same these lads are still on professional contracts.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

Another article about contracts here.

http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-40-week-contracts-2015529-Mar2015/

Is it because the lads are only on 40 week professional contracts that it is not considered fully professional? I don't understand why that would matter. They work 40 weeks in a year, and take a few months off. Still making a living from football. Its not that they are doing some other job on the side to supplement their earning. The 40 week thing is just a technicality - as the author discusses.

Now I am not saying that the lads get paid a lot some are but not all. But they get paid. €16,000 per year is decent enough wage for a young 20-something year old (i'm sure the PFAI chairman would disagree, but I remember my first job out of college and asking for about the same figure as that).

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

And there has to be some realisation that the top division was all but professional when a significant number of players were pocketing over €100,000 per annum at the end of the Celtic Tiger era. The article doesn't mention the average wage at the end of the Celtic Tiger era but it could be inferred to be about 3 times the 2015 average of €16,000 which would be €48,000. Which is professional in anyone's money. Why can't the players who played during this era be considered notable?

In my mind the top clubs paying €1000 per week (over €4000 per month) are fully professional. So I don't understand when the likes of Shamrock Rovers, or Dundalk play in the Group Stages (not qualifying stages) of the Europa League against other pro teams that it does not qualify the players as notable. I thought there was a general agreement on this that it would. After all the Europa League is in effect a fully professional league and if fully pro clubs like Dundalk or Rovers play in it then why can't their players have wiki articles.

I have tried to make a positive contribution to the wiki, creating articles for notable players. But I have been thwarted and turned upon by the wiki elite, and to be honest I couldn't really be bothered any more.

All the players in the league of Ireland are members of the PFAI - the "Professional" Footballers Association of Ireland. Does that not say something?

Also a little more reading.

http://www.newstalk.com/Professional-football-doesnt-pay-enough-to-fund-a-mortgage-or-get-married

Like I said, its not a big wage, but the word of note throughout the whole article is professional, professional, professional. This is a PFAI spokesman, so of course he is going to prepare his comments to look for more support for his professional players - so I would not get hung up on the fact that he complains they are not paid enough to get a mortgage. Other articles that I have posted show that a significant number earn a very good wage and would have no problem supporting a mortgage/family etc.

DavidDublin (talk) 02:34, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

€200 per week is not a professional wage, many players have 2nd jobs - hence why we consider it a semi-pro league. The fact their union is called "Professional" has no bearing on it. Giant Snowman 08:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Your first statement invalid, your second has no grounds. The average wage is €400 per week. Ten years ago the average was closer to €1200 per week - why are players who played back then at least not considered notable? Have you any evidence to back up your claim that many players have a second job. The top clubs are still paying €1000 per week and are competing in fully professional league - the Europa League. DavidDublin (talk) 10:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." So there you go your first point is wrong in two ways 1. €200 is not the representative wage, 2. €200 is a professional wage. I think that someone passing judgement and deleting articles should be more knowledgeable to be honest. You have made a very feeble attempt to defend position 3 short phrases to counter the time I spent putting in a fair and complete discussion of where League of Ireland is right now and where it has been in the past. Your reply doesn't seem like you have either read my comments or my sources. The only points you made in your reply were wrong, invalid and nothing to back up your claims. I actually can't believe you have so many incorrect points in just 2 sentences. DavidDublin (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

"Basically, there are two types of players playing the game in organized football associations: amateurs and professionals. FIFA defines professionals as players who have a written contract with a club and are paid more for their footballing activity than the expenses they effectively incur. All other players are considered to be amateurs (some of them are paid for playing, some not)." http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/08/contracts-in-professional-football-player-club/. Yes it is just a blog and he has no sources (I can spend time looking for an official source), but there needs to be some sort of definition of what is and what is not a professional footballer and not something that is just decided at the whim of the wiki elite.

I would be very confident that every player in the Top Level of the League of Ireland has a written contract and are paid above expenses incurred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidDublin (talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Because by your own admission the league is NOT fully-professional (only some teams are). The average monthly salary in Ireland is about three times what some of these footballers earn. A wage of €200 per week isn't even enough to rent the average one-bedroom apartment, let alone other normal living costs like food and bills and transport, ignoring tax. So, again, how is €200 per week a professional wage? Giant Snowman 11:02, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The debate is not whether they are paid a lot, and €400 per week can definitely get you by. Look it wouldn't be easy - but I'm not saying they are paid a lot. Can you show me where I have "admitted" the league is not fully professional? Can you tell me which definition of professional footballer we should go for, the PFAI definition (>€100 per week) the FIFA definition (written contract > expenses incurred) or GiantSnowman's definition? Can you tell me about the many players that have second jobs? There are just a handful of top leagues that are governed by UEFA that are not considered notable for wikipedia. We could get around all these pointless arguments by just accepting every club that has a UEFA coefficient, or any League that qualifies for UEFA competition - Europa League or Champions League. DavidDublin (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

What about Scotland is £600 per week (Ross County avg wage for Premier Division club) enough to cover normal living costs in Scotland if €400 is not enough for Ireland? What about The teams below Scotland in the Scottish 1st who will be paying even less than £600 per week and probably less than €400 per week too - but they are fully professional? Where do you come up with your arbitrary distinction between a pro wage and a semi pro wage? What about the Portuguese 2nd Division, the Polish 2nd and 3rd tier. Has the same rules been applied to these teams. If not then why is it that the league of Ireland has to prove a level of wages beyond what the other leagues have to prove. http://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202015.pdf. The professional level of the top League of Ireland teams at least is almost at the level of MLS teams like Real Salt Lake City, Scottish Premier League teams like Motherwell,Partick Thistle, Ross County, Saint Mirren, J-League teams, CFL teams. And the rest of the division's level of professionalism is very close to the level of Ross County and at least on par with the Scottish Championship. And dare I say streets ahead of the lower divisions in Poland and Portugal. What about Nigeria £130 per week and that is fully pro? http://screamer.deadspin.com/chart-the-average-player-salaries-in-soccer-leagues-ar-1658856283 The average wage in League 2 in England is £800 per week http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/ It hardly dwarfs the League of Ireland salaries. I would say the lower leagues in Spain and Italy pay significantly less than that £800 per week but no question about them being included in the list of fully pro leagues. DavidDublin (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Can we get some consensus that the league was professional in the mid 2000's when the top players were making €100,000+, a lot of players were on €600 per week and I estimate the average wage must have been at least 3 times the current average which is €16,000 making it €45,000 plus. Does anyone have an argument against this meeting the professional criteria as has been enough for other leagues? DavidDublin (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

What reliable sources do you have which confirm, categorically, that the league was fully-professional at one point, and for what years? Giant Snowman 18:39, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion it is fully pro right now as all players are on professional contracts according to the PFAI (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569) and according to FIFA laws on footballing contracts.

Some quotes from above link

"The hope is that the move will enable some of the country’s 200 or so professionals to better make ends meet at a time that the average amount earned by a Premier Division player is just €16,000 per annum"...

"McGuinness readily acknowledges that the average figure of just €400 means many are on far less with some, he suggests, on the €100 minimum figure used to define a professional." ..

Although officially professional, the wages quoted in that source (and the same average is quoted in a number of other sources I posted) are rather low. But that is just today's landscape.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

"So while the tail-end of the Celtic Tiger resulted in more than 20 players earning in excess of €100,000, with one unnamed player taking home €180,000 in his basic salary ...... This year the highest earner in the League of Ireland is on €40,000 per year."

This states that towards the end of the Celtic Tiger top players were earning 4 to 5 times what they are earning now.

The below article also supports the view that wages were at least 3 times higher in the past.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

"We have a lot of lads who were earning €500 or €600 a few seasons ago who are getting a third of that now"

No other league has provided reliable sources confirming categorically that their league is fully professional and for what years it remained fully professional. Many leagues have been accepted after links pointing to the average wages, or links quoting managers/players happy for individual clubs to have maintained a full time status. Some links are sources are 14 years old without any new sources confirming what level of professionalism was maintained. We need common sense and for the guidelines to be applied fairly and equally. If they are applied fairly then I can't even understand why we are arguing that a league where top players were paid €100,000 to €200,000 per year is not professional. And where the average wage was likely at least 3 times the current €16,000 per year for the division as a whole (not just top teams). This is professional.

Can you please add the League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005 to the list of fully professional leagues?

DavidDublin (talk) 21:12, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

We have been here before and reached what I thought was a reasonable consensus

"We do have to draw the line somewhere. In the case that you're talking about where Bohemians will soon play a European match against another professional side, then the players in that match would pass WP:ATHLETE, in the same way that a player with a Scottish or English club who hadn't played a league match would become notable (eg Darren Fletcher made his Man Utd debut in the Champions League). It would be up to whoever was contributing to the article to reference that appearance, then the article would not be in dispute. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2009 "

A reliable source was asked for before and was provided in the way of an article from the BBC stating categorically that the League of Ireland was fully professional. But for the League of Ireland that didn't cut it at the time.

If the guidelines do not allow you to add League of Ireland Premier Division, or even League of Ireland Premier Division 2000-2005, then the very least you can do is add Europa League as a fully professional competition and Champions League as fully professional competition. DavidDublin (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

A few things - 1) please read WP:TLDR; 2) please learn to indent; 3) this source (from 2015) mentions players being classed as "amateur" because they don't earn enough, and those at the higher end of the pay scale are still only paid for 80% of the year (so not fully-pro); 4) something being described as "professional" does not mean it is "fully-professional" by this page's standards; 5) still nothing presented showing it was fully-pro 2000-2005. Giant Snowman 06:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Agree with GS, the walls of text are not helpful. To be honest, I'm not seeing anything indicating that wages are sufficient to ensure that essentially all players involved do not need to seek additional employment and in fact the arguments for including LOI on the list of FPLs seems to actually argue the very opposite from a salary pov. Additionally, the idea of adding the Europa League or Champions league as a fully professional competition is also a non-starter given that demonstrably amateur leagues partake in both competitions. Frankly, there seems to be considerable confusion in the statements above between the notion of professionalism, i.e. that players receive some form of recompense beyond their basic expenses for playing, and full professionalism, where all players receive sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment. Fenix down (talk) 07:25, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/pfai-looks-to-help-airtricity-league-players-supplement-income-1.2174569

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fall-in-wages-shows-tough-irish-reality-31144122.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/wages-are-low-and-contracts-short-but-professional-game-is-on-firmer-footing-1.2127267

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/8084037.stm

So these four sources do not prove from today's wages that all players receive sufficient money to be their sole source of employment. But it shows that at the tail end of the Celtic Tiger all players were. Sorry about the long text before, I'm not all that familiar with the process here, I was trying to explain my points, but I think you guys are right, I think that I wrote too much that my points were lost in the wall of text. DavidDublin (talk) 08:17, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I think there a few points that would be useful to have clarified in relation to this debate. Firstly, is there an objective definition of "professional" that is being used by @GiantSnowman: and others in this case to refer to the leagues? I see @Fenix down: referred to it as the scenario "where a player receives sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment". Is there general consensus on this thread that that is agreed upon? If so, has an objective figure been set at the exact wage which is deemed to be "sufficient"? As a side note for what it's worth, I think it would be helpful to include the Champions League and Europa League competitions proper (from group stage onwards) in the list of fully-professional leagues as a player's appearance in either of Europe's premier continental competitions surely confers notability. --IrishTennis (talk) 18:35, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not just about the money; fully-professional basically means that football is your full-time job. Some semi-pro players in England are paid well above the minimum wage, but they're not fully-professional as they only train twice a week. Number 5 7 19:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Can we get agreement on the definition of professional football. So far we have "where a player receives sufficient money for football to be their sole source of employment" (can we assume above minimum wage) and "train 5 days a week". Although it's not possible to reveal the players confidential contracts. I think that for most leagues average figures are released that will give a good indication.
Can we remove Ireland from the list of non professional clubs. It was removed in July 2009, the reason cited was no consensus. As there is still no consensus particularly for early to mid 2000's can this be removed. And the source quoted provides particularly weak evidence and doesn't distinguish between the First and the Premier.

DavidDublin (talk) 21:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

No, we can't remove it because there are multiple reliable sources stating that clubs in the league are semi-professional. Here is a former Chairman of Cork City (and CEO at two other clubs) explicitly describing the Premier Division as "a semi professional league with semi professional players". This book states that "football in Ireland is played on a semi-professional and a part-time basis". Number 5 7 21:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

There is obviously no clear consensus on this, thats why it had been removed. And if there is no clear consensus that it is a fully pro league then there cant be a clear consensus that it isnt! It is true that the league and clubs have all flirted with professionalism at different times from as early as the 70's when Giles made Rovers fully pro, to a point in the 2009 where all teams in the top division were fully professional. I don't care too much for the book you reference as he also describes other sports in Ireland like rugby as part-time/amateur.DavidDublin (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Plenty of evidence was provided in the discussion in 2009 that the league was not fully-professional at that time (for example this) and it is very clear that the league is not fully-professional at this moment in time – as we have such evidence, there is no basis for removing it from the list. Number 5 7 22:11, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Number57. I'm sorry but I find the phrasing in that article doesnt even make sense, "one of the only full time professionals". He is either one of the full time professionals, or the only full time professional. What does "one of the only" mean? But if you look at the numbers quoted in that source - "Shamrock Rovers' wage bill for the entire 22-man squad is just £12,800-a-week." "He [...] earns £850-a-week during the season". This means that the rest of the squad earn an average of £569 per week - sounds like a professional wage to me. I think the most likely season that we will come to a consensus on is actually the 2009 season. Wages seemed to hit a peak around the 2007 season, but it was a 12 club Premier Division. By 2009 they had dropped the two worst teams and left with a 10 club premier. This saw an increase in the standards. Even the newly promoted club Dundalk were handing out full time contracts and have been fully professional since.. Soon after came the big bust.DavidDublin (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

If you need more evidence that Shamrock were part time in 2009, Michael O'Neill is quoted on their own website as saying "We're a part-time team". Number 5 7 20:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. Hard to argue with that. I wouldn't mind getting £500-a-week to play part time though. I more or less agree that LoI doesn't meet the strictest definition of fully professional. Can I draw some parallels with other sports notability guidelines? Cricket players are notable if "has appeared as a player or umpire in at least one cricket match that is judged by a substantial source to have been played at the highest international or domestic level". Semi pro basketball players (D League) "Have won an award, or led the league in a major statistical category of the Continental Basketball Association or NBA Development League." these guys salaries are on a par with LoI 2015 average so it's a relevant comparison. Also they can get a 10 day contract in the NBA and be notable - and ppl have said the 40 week contract in the LoI was too short! Amateur or college athletes are notable if "Have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major Division I (NCAA) record.". I personally would like to see something similar for top level domestic leagues like LoI. I guess if you have won an award it wont be hard to prove GNG, or were top scorer or player of the season. Are these kind of things the things that would be accepted under GNG? DavidDublin (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

USL & NASL

USL should be removed from the list of fully professional leagues and the players articles marked with AfD. The players are not under contract and are only paid during the season from March to September. A good player earns $2000 per month. Even reports that some make as little as $50 per week. In the interest of applying the guidelines fairly this league should be removed.

For NASL players it is not unheard of for bench players to be paid room and board according to this source. For many players the season only serves as a part time job. One of the former owners of the Carolina Railhawks said players in the NASL were making $1800 to $3200 a month for 8 months. This was 2012-2013. That was the last sort of official statement on salary. DavidDublin (talk) 12:08, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Segunda División B

How about Spanish lower division league, Segunda División B. Is it considered fully professional or not? Segunda División is considered fully professional though. Hitro talk 14:36, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

No, it is not on the list. Giant Snowman 15:02, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not on the list but Wikipedia article about this league says that it is a fully professional league. Can someone check whether this league is fully professional or not? If it is, then it maybe added to the list. Hitro talk 16:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:WIKIPEDIAISNOTARELIABLESOURCE. Giant Snowman 16:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I am here for last 10 years, I know these basic essays. I mean to say that if there are possibilities of this league being a fully professional then we should find out and add it to the list. I am not saying that we should add it to the list just because Wikipedia article says so. I did my research and couldn't find anything in reliable sources that confirms the actual status of this league. Hitro talk 16:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

If you have been here for that long then you will also know that Wikipedia relies on reliable sources to verify content. If a reliable source cannot be found to say this league is fully-pro, then we do not include it. Giant Snowman 17:04, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

That is what I am requesting "Can somebody check on the status of this league?". Not intentionally, but you have misguided this discussion. Hitro talk 17:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not fully-professional. See, e.g., In Spain, once you drop below Segunda 'A' to the regionally structured Segunda 'B', a large proportion of the clubs are part-time or However, Zidane's apprenticeship as a first-team coach runs to just a season and a half at the helm of Castilla, in the third tier of Spanish football, a wasteland of B teams and part-time sloggers. Number 5 7 17:25, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, that clears the confusion. Actually, while patrolling new pages, I came across articles about footballers who are playing in this league but their clubs were part of professional leagues previously, so for tagging the article properly, I wanted to be sure. I forgot to put those articles in my watchlist and I have lost them now. :) Hitro talk 17:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Women

So, Swedens Damallsvenskan and Netherlands Eredivisie are listed fully pro. I doubt that. There is probably more money to earn in Germany than both of those. Here is a 2014 source saying the average Bundesliga club's budget is 900,000€. The linked PDF, although that's from 2007 estimates 150,000€ per club. -Koppapa (talk) 07:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Ecuadorian Serie A

Is the Ecuadorian Serie A professional? According to the Spanish page the league went professional in 2002-03 but this is uncited. It is not listed as either professional or semi-professional on the league list. Inter&anthro (talk) 20:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

here it says that S.D. Quito was giving away free tickets for the clubs away trip to Venezuela some years back. There is also a post from another team L.D.U. Quito marketing their new jerseys here and here. And here is presentation given in 2012 of how L.D.U. Quito plans to expand their marketing strategies and effectiveness among supporters. Nothing on players salaries so far, but this does seem to bear the hallmarks of a fully professional league if they put that much money and effort in advertising. Inter&anthro (talk) 16:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)