Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League

NFL Team Template Wiki-Code Formatting

Charlesaaronthompson has unilaterally made border changes to every NFL template, undid his changes, and then reimplemented them again, all in a matter of a few days (including reverting my reversion of his fist change at {{Green Bay Packers}}. I find this frustrating in and of itself, but am finding their constant need to keep redesigning color schemes even more frustrating. These edits are overkill and purely decorative in nature. Is it too much to ask that moving forward these types of changes get proposed first before implementing them? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds entirely reasonable to me to discuss changes that affect so many pages. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason why borders for NFL team templates can't be included in the |basestyle=? I put them in because I felt it would improve the appearance of the templates. I only took them out to appease User talk:Gonzo fan2007. I put them back in because it seemed weird to me that the border color for the Baltimore Ravens' primary style (they use  gold  as their tertiary team color) didn't match the border color used and derived from Module:Gridiron color/data. I only want border colors to be used in NFL team templates in order to be WP:CONSISTENT with other sports team templates, such as MLB & NBA team templates. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The NFL team infobox was (recently by me made) consistent with the NFL and NBA player infoboxes but you reverted it and removed the border. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Charlesaaronthompson: This is not a situation where consistent applies, each league is entirely independent of one another with very little crossover except that they're sports. Where do you stop then? Hey man im josh (talk) 23:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: What do you mean when you say "where do you stop then"? All I would like to do is ensure that all the NFL team templates have a border color for the |titlestyle= & the |basestyle=. @Dissident93: Is there a reason why the NFL & NBA player infoboxes need to use the primary team color w/border color for both the header & |basestyle=? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Charlesaaronthompson: What I mean when I ask where it stops, is why not NHL -> MLS -> all soccer articles -> all sports team articles? I know it seems drastic, but in trying to implement some things I thought were standard amonf sports articles to NHL articles I got bit because there was not consensus for it. Treat each league, or at least each sport, independently.

Personally I'm not a fan of the changes to the borders, but I'm not mad at you for trying them. I'd just like discussions to be had about such widely used colour/template changes. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no objective reason but doing it that way shows the alt style throughout the rest of the infobox and the primary style only in the title header, which seems odd to me. I was trying to get both styles alternating similar to the MLB player infobox in the sandbox (example here) but wasn't able to get the border colors showing (by using rowstyle). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh: Are we not having a discussion about a proposed widely used color/template change? Also, it would stop w/NFL, MLB & NBA team templates. I don't want to change NHL team templates or MLS soccer team templates because that's a lot of work. @Dissident93 Now that you've explained what you were trying to do, it makes sense to me. If no one else is opposed, then we should implement the infobox so that primary style & alt style alternates throughout the infobox. @Hey man im josh @Dissident93 So the question I need to ask is this: what's our WP:CONSENSUS? I vote for using |border=2 in both the primary style & alt style of all 32 NFL team templates. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 23:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I can implement the sandbox version if others like it, but ideally the borders should be working. And to stay on track with the original topic, the issue is that borders in a templates body can look messy due to how many sections can exist. I'm sure they can also be made to alternate but I haven't tried to see what it looks like. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Dissident93: Ideally, the cell size should be the same for both the primary style and alt style that use the borders. That's what I would support. Is there a way to use borders in the |basestyle= that doesn't make the template as a whole look messy without compromising the cell sizes? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I have my own opinions on colors, but I also grasp that I don't make those decisions and consensus drives that. Charlesaaronthompson, you have had so many run ins with colors, formatting, etc. that I would hope by now you realize that if you are going to make a major changes to colors across 32 NFL team templates, that you should drop a line here first to get some idea if the WikiProject supports those changes. And second, if you have another run in, don't just revert a revert. Go to the talk page, here or the user page and have a discussion. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 00:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007: Yes, you're right about all of that. So please, help me establish a WP:CONSENSUS? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 04:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh and Dissident93: What should the WP:CONSENSUS be? |border=2 in the |basestyle= or no? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 04:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

A visual comparison would help. I cant tell a border from a basestyle, and I doubt that I am alone. —Bagumba (talk) 05:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Where exactly would this be applied? In navboxes, borders are usually fine until it gets grouped with several other ones and becomes messy. I don't have an issue with them in infoboxes, but I personally don't prefer them being so predominate in the NFL team one as it makes more sense to me to display the primary style there more. My suggestion was to either keep them all primary or alternate them like the MLB player infobox like the sandbox example. They would ideally have border support and be the same size as the title header, but I actually kind of like the (unintended) size differences here as it condenses it a little. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 13:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Charlesaaronthompson my point is to establish consensus before making large-scale color and style changes. I hope you take that to heart moving forward. And it would be great if you went back and undid your revisions to bring everything back to the status quo ante.

My main issue at {{Green Bay Packers}} was that the white border is just fine as it currently is. The dark green border is overkill and looking at some other navboxes, I feel the same way, that the dark borders within the expanded navbox are just overkill and serve no real purpose. {{San Francisco 49ers}} is another example of just color overkill. The previous version, with white borders, is much more appropriate and professional. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

That was also my point, that such wide spread changes aren't good to make without discussion first. @Charlesaaronthompson stating Also, it would stop w/NFL, MLB & NBA team templates. I don't want to change NHL team templates or MLS soccer team templates because that's a lot of work. – That's my point though. You're attempting to make three independent leagues for three unrelated sports consistent.

Also noting that I'm opposed to the border changes. They are, as Gonzo said, purely decorative and I personally find them to make the templates look worse, but obviously my opinion doesn't necessarily reflect others' feelings. If you want an official vote of some kind then create the examples in a new subsection and then the discussion can be linked to from all 32 team templates to allow for proper consensus to be achieved. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Reiterating josh above, Charlesaaronthompson you were bold and made some changes. They were reverted and there is some opposition to your changes. Before that discussion, you should return the templates to their status quo before your changes, and then propose your change. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:41, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007: I actually already did so for all 32 of the teams, except the Packers, which you had already done. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if this is considered off-topic from the other issues, but I just realized that the borders in the NFL team infobox sandbox example were working as intended in light mode but not dark mode (which I use to edit). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007, Hey man im josh, and Dissident93: OK, may I please propose these changes? I mean, Hey man im josh already reverted my changes back to the prior status quo. How much time needs to elapse before I can propose these changes and have them taken into consideration? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 02:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no expectation to wait a significant amount of time after changes are reverted for a lack of consensus. As I said above, put together some examples and propose them in a new subsection, which we can then link to from the different template talk pages. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I recently made a proposal here if you need an example of what this looks like. I want to stress again that there is nothing wrong with being bold, but at this point Charlesaaronthompson, you have had numerous editors express frustration and opposition to your unilateral color and formatting changes on templates that I would hope moving forward you work to gain consensus by first proposing changes like this before making them. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

List of NFL players born outside the United States

Dissident93: I see that you removed the list of active players from the page with the explanation "being WP:BOLD and removing the active player list due to its large and dynamic scope that requires constant maintenance. with the growth of the sport overseas and the IPP, this list will only continue to grow". A few points:

1. If the page is no longer primarily a list, perhaps List should be removed from the title.
2. requires constant maintenance: I actually never understood why it just wasn't a cumulative all-time list, instead of only focusing on active players and churning. That would be less maintenance, and we wouldn't lose knowledge or effort. It doesnt't need to be complete from Day 1 (or ever)—just tag it with {{Dynamic list}}
3. WP:OTHERSTUFF: List of NBA players born outside the United States

—Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I honestly thought we had an all-time list somewhere before, but I suppose I was thinking of this. I just viewed a list of active ones to be too much of a hassle. I used to comb through it every so often and found plenty of outdated info, which to me is worse than having players missing from an all-time list as they shouldn't ever have to be adjusted once included. The NBA one is pretty much what the NFL should look like. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 13:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

There's List of Canadians in the National Football League. But unless it's going to have paragraphs of Canadian-specific prose (currently zero), there's no reason for a country-specific page. —Bagumba (talk) 14:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Ideally that would be merged and become a section at the list of NFL players born outside the United States. I'll probably get around to getting to the page to match the NBA list unless somebody beats me to it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Reserve list listings

Regarding this edit detailing the reserve list for a team in 1983:

• Where can that be easily sourced?
• If a player wasnt on IR all year, should he just be listed on the regular roster? What's so significant about their end season status?

—Bagumba (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

IR back then was season-ending so I don't believe they were unable to come off it? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 13:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds right. But if they actually played some games before landing on IR, it makes it look like they never played that season. And a lot of people (or just me) wouldn't know exactly when IR stopped being permanent.—Bagumba (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point, but I've always viewed the "final" roster being a snapshop of the last gameday-ready roster. That issue would apply to the 2024 rosters too. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

From an editor's perspective, I understand why it usually ends up that way. From a reader's point of view, I want an overview of the season. Whether someone is injured at game 17 is no more significant if he was injured games 4–8. Then there's the issue of sourcing it specifically for the last week, which is just as big of a reason to get rid of reserve lists once the season ends. —Bagumba (talk) 19:16, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the logic but would this mean that all players that played in at least one game that season should be displayed in the final roster? Would the 2024 Raiders one at the end of the season include Davante Adams? I've seen some pages that have one for the offseason, one for Week 1, and one at the end of the season. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:24, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, 1 game means they are on the roster, having played during the season. This is also straightforward to source, unless someone can point out an easy way to verify the reserve list years after the fact. —Bagumba (talk) 20:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#WP:NRIVALRY

For those interested, there is a pending discussion of the above guidline. Cbl62 (talk) 23:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Club vs Team debate

For any editor not aware there has been an ongoing discussion since April at Talk:National_Football_League#Change_the_term_club_back_to_team about whether we should use the term "club" or "team" to refer to the clubs/teams in the league. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I was not aware of that, no, so thanks for bringing this up. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, someone changed, at some point, teams to "clubs" in the article and the discussion is about changing the wording to be "teams". Hey man im josh (talk) 14:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Category:American football families versus Category:National Football League families

I am trying to understand the difference between these categories. Like why is Category:McCaffrey family in Category:American football families while Category:Manning family is in Category:National Football League families. Should these all just be in one of these cats? Category:American football families would seem to be more general and appropriate, in that it would account for families who had people who played college football, in other leagues other than the NFL, etc. Thoughts? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, we shouldn't limit them to leagues. The same logic applies to why we use Category:American football quarterbacks instead of Category:National Football League quarterbacks. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Terrible Towel

Terrible Towel has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

San Diego Chargers infobox

Something wrong with the infobox at San Diego Chargers. It says "1961-2017", instead of the correct "1961-2016". I've tried to fix it, but no luck. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I made the corrections. It appears that @Azure1233: (in Dec 2023) mistakenly changed the dates. He apparently didn't realize (though there was a note there) that NFL team pages go be NFL seasons, rather than calender years. GoodDay (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Andy Pappanastos

OK I will admit I am kind of impatient but I am just asking the question if Draft:Andy Pappanastos is good enough for being an article? Just asking or if I need to add more references. Dänke WhyIsThisSoHard575483838 (talk) 03:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I provided feedback at the draft. —Bagumba (talk) 10:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki-Code Formatting Adjustments using color data from Module:Gridiron color/data

Is there a way to change the wiki-code formatting for Template:Gridiron alt primary style so that the border color in that specific template uses Template:Gridiron tertiary color raw instead of Template:Gridiron primary color raw? I'd change it myself, but I'm not technically proficient enough to implement this change by myself. Would anyone be opposed to changing the wiki-code formatting here? If not, would someone who knows how please help me implement this change? Also, how would I change the wiki-code formatting for the rowcells in Template:Infobox NFL team back to where they were at a normal size? Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 03:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the whole point of using the alt style is to use the secondary color as the filler and the primary color as the border (which makes it an inverse of the primary style). And the NFL team infobox is now using |rowstyle= instead of |headerstyle= to provide alternating styles, which seems to not work in exactly the same way. Personally I don't think we need every header to be the same size as the title header anyway as it just takes up additional space for no reason, but if others disagree then I can take another look at it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dissident93: I mean, the only reason why I'm even proposing a wiki-code formatting change for Template:Gridiron alt primary style is because if you look at the wiki-code formatting for the Baltimore Ravens at Module:Gridiron color/data, the Ravens use  gold  as their tertiary team color (i.e., border color), but then that color can't be used in Template:Gridiron alt primary style. I'm just using the Ravens as an example, but my point is that the same tertiary border color should be used for both Template:Gridiron primary style & Template:Gridiron alt primary style for all teams that have a different tertiary color for the borders. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 04:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Would implementing your proposed change affect other teams and if so, would the module data have to be fixed for to account for it? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 14:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Marshon Lattimore

Could an admin add semiprotection to Marshon Lattimore's page for a few hours? IPs continue to edit the page and will do so until then the trade becomes official by 4pm EST. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Done, but I'm obligated to say that these requests are best made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Increase. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I knew there was a page for it somewhere but couldn't remember where. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I remember it based on the shortcut WP:RPP/I. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

AP awards

This was discussed in the past but I believe there wasn't actually any consensus arrived from it, but the AP awards given out at the NFL Honors are considered the main award by the league and media (and have for years), and thus the articles should have their titles changed to reflect that. For example, Associated Press NFL Most Valuable Player Award should be re-titled to simply NFL Most Valuable Player Award as the only other notable MVP award even given out anymore is the PFWA NFL Most Valuable Player Award, which hasn't deviated from the AP's for the last 20 years anyway. We could include the historic MVP award table from the current NFL Most Valuable Player Award article in a section under the retitled AP page. This would apply to all the AP awards given out at the NFL honors. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings on this. The AP awards have been the 'de facto' awards for a good while now, essentially endorsed by the NFL given that they're the version of the award given out at the NFL Honors. I certainly wouldn't oppose it. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

What's your counterargument for posterity? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly just the ambiguity of the title. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

NFL Most Valuable Player Award is an existing article that summarizes all the different MVP awards. What would you rename this? I'm not sure I would support in an RM. I would be supportive of all the "Associated Press"es in the titles be changed to "AP" tho. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 19:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Would likely have to be for all the titles at Category:Associated Press awards if we're going to shortform it, which I would actually support. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Per my original post, Associated Press NFL Most Valuable Player Award would be moved/merged with NFL Most Valuable Player Award, with the table there listing all the historic MVP awards be moved to a subsection under the newly renamed page. The only content that page even has is the table, so no information is being lost or overwritten. All other existing award pages such as PFWA NFL Most Valuable Player Award would remain as is. I'm only interested in stripping AP from the page title and not the article for the sake of simplicity; the Major League Baseball Most Valuable Player Award is awarded by the Baseball Writers' Association of America but isn't reflected in the page name. I can make a sandbox version of what it would look like if needed.

The only hesitation I have is how we would handle the pre-AP awards from before 1957. Would the Joe F. Carr Trophy and United Press International NFL Most Valuable Player Awards be included as a mostly linear path from 1938–1956 or would it be best to keep the current formatting and allow the table to list all the non-AP awards? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The Joe F. Carr Trophy should probably be included somehow at least? Its article says "It was awarded until the 1946 season, and it remains the only MVP award the NFL has officially sanctioned". Maybe these discrepancies is why Lizard the Wizard split out the AP award in the first place? ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 20:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, the simplest change would be to have NFL Most Valuable Player Award renamed to List of NFL Most Valuable Player awards. Every thing else can stay the same except changing Associated Press to AP (honestly, shouldn't it just be "MVP" per common name?). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

AP NFL MVP? ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 23:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd support that per WP:CONCISE. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 14:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

are considered the main award by the league and media: I don't believe the NFL has stated this, but even still we'd go by reliable, independent sources, not necessarily what a league desires to push. FWIW, the NFL's own record book lists both the AP and PFWA winners (and Sporting News, but they only issue offensive and defensive POY now). At Total Football II: The Official Encyclopedia of the National Football League p. 387 (1999), they list all the winners and historical selectors together. I'm wary of WP:UNDUE status making AP the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and that's before even considering for recentism based solely on NFL Honors in the last decade. —Bagumba (talk) 04:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The PFHOF explictly mentions AP, e.g. Peyton Manning (click "Career Highlights") shows "2003 Associated Press Most Valuable Player". For Jerry Rice they list his non-AP MVPs ("1987 Most Valuable Player/Player of the Year (PFWA, NEA, SN, MX)").—Bagumba (talk) 05:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

MOS:AVOIDBOLD and WP:BOLDLINKAVOID

In my years at WP:NFL, I have noticed two very common MOS issue: MOS:AVOIDBOLD and WP:BOLDLINKAVOID. For those unaware:

• MOS:AVOIDBOLD: If the article's title does not lend itself to being used easily and naturally in the first sentence, the wording should not be distorted in an effort to include it. Instead, simply describe the subject in normal English, avoiding unnecessary redundancy.
• WP:BOLDLINKAVOID: Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the first sentence of a lead

An example of both of these issues can be found here: 2013–14 NFL playoffs (Perm Link). The title of the article doesn't lend itself to being restated exactly in the first sentence, and even if it did, then the bold words should not be linked. I try to fix these as I come across them and I would appreciate any help if you all run into the same issue in other articles. I feel like many editors aren't even aware of this MOS, as I have been reverted fixing it until I share it with people. Thanks for nay help! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a proposed standard wording and formatting? If we can establish that, some WP:GNOMEs might get to it. I often find certain editors revert for seemingly no other reason than "but we've always done it that way".—Bagumba (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Bagumba these issues are rampant across Wikipedia in general. I was just putting this out here with the hope that when other editors see it, they correct it. Seems like the biggest problem is people just don't know its in the MOS this way. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 16:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)