Talk:International Churches of Christ

Court Cases

In early 2023, 6 Federal Court Cases were filed against the ICOC alleging child molestation, racketeering and other horrendous claims. In July of 2023 the 6 plaintiffs all withdrew their cases and the judge dismissed ALL the cases. This comes from a Reliable Source found at www.pacermonitor.com (which is a site that keeps dockets of court cases in the US). On the ICOC page an editor has referenced that 2 cases have been refiled, based on a Rolling Stone Magazine article. A simple search reveals that no such LA County Court Cases have actually been logged. If anyone has a primary source that proves the secondary source (Rolling Stone Magazine) is accurate please provide it? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The Rolling Stone article is quite clear in its assertion that cases have been filed: "According to two lawsuits filed July 13 in L.A. County Court, the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) is not a church, but a 'cult,' a high-control group where leaders allegedly take advantage of the members". Cordless Larry (talk) 09:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted this addition based on primary sources. I think we need secondary sources covering these recent court filings to be able to note them, but others may take a different view, so I'm raising it here. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I am surprised that court cases that haven't even had a ruling are even on this Wikipedia page, this comes across like a gossip magazine more than an encyclopedia. Either WP:BALASPS or WP:BLPGROUP seem to apply. Once there is a ruling then that can be included on this page. Until then the basic rule of NPOV or "innocent until proven guilty" should apply. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:10, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

If they've been reported in reliable, secondary sources and the text is neutral, I don't see the problem. Reporting on an ongoing case isn't the same as making an assumption about guilt. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is the primary info on the four state cases pending in Los Angeles against ICC, ICOC and Kippers. Someone keeps removing this info from the article. But these are official, public records.

"As of October 26, 2023, four lawsuits with a total of 16 plaintiffs have been filed in Los Angeles County Court, alleging sexual abuse of children by church leaders and members [Cases Nos. 23STCV16423, 23STCV16430, 23STCV18426 and 23STCV24432]."

Here is the court's website, where these cases can be looked up by the case number [no need to enter any "filing courthouse].:https://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?casetype=civil

Here is the actual fourth complaint.:https://drive.google.com/file/d/174tr_QdQqqNPvJ9gdaYXwg-UOJp1S_Aw/view thought1 (talk) 00:18, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The someone is me, 1pameroo, as should be clear from my comment from 30 October above and comments at User talk:1pameroo#October 2023. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Reliability and independence of sources

I've started a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability and independence of sources for International Churches of Christ about some of the sources used in this article. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

NPOV: Adding summary comment to the lead

To follow the WP:NPOV, since this material appears in the article also, this comment can be added to the summary of the cult discussion in the Lead. "Others have found the church to not be a cult." Cite: https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/article/straitstimes19980901-1.2.31.11?qt=church,%20not,%20a,%20cult&q=church%20not%20a%20cult

Editaddict (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Since no one discussed this and since it is complicit with the WP:NPOV policy, I will add it to the article. Editaddict (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality and verifiability[edit]

Most problems with negative material can be avoided by adhering to standard WP policies, such as using good sources, balancing the content carefully, and writing in an unbiased way. When including negative material in an article, some things to check for include:

•    Ensure that the material is supported by reliable sources

•    Do not present the material in a way that over-emphasizes it

•     Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance

Editaddict (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You have NO consensus for your edits, I strongly suggest you revert yourself. Theroadislong (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Please explain how my simple suggestion does not follow the WP:NPOV policy to create neutrality and balance. My understanding is that the WP policy is what we follow and not just people's opinions. Editaddict (talk) 15:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As has been explained to you, your conflict of interest means you should avoid editing the article directly and instead post edit requests here and gain consensus for any proposed changes. I oppose this addition because the source doesn't really support the claim that "Others have found the church to not be a cult"; all it says is that the Court of Appeal in Singapore overturned a High Court ruling that newspapers that had called the Central Christian Church a cult had not defamed it. We should perhaps add something to that effect to the Court cases and lawsuits section of the article, but the statement you've added isn't supported and doesn't belong in the lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, the article doesn't establish that the Central Christian Church was affiliated with the International Churches of Christ, so that would need to be established with a good source. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It is on their website https://centralchristianchurch.sg/

Is that a good enough source? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 11:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the website doesn't state that the church was affiliated with the International Churches of Christ at the time of the court case in 1998. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you misread. The headline reads: "The Appeals Court has ruled that the two newspapers defamed the Central Christian Church by labelling it a 'cult." Please give a good reason this addition to the lead does not follow the WP:NPOV "Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance." Just saying it does not belong there does not make it so. Editaddict (talk) 15:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:NPOV#Balance does not say that, it says "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." which is a very different statement Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So there are accusations or the church being a cult, then there are articles where the churches of Christ, the 1,6million member body from where the ICOC came, where the representatives of the COC apologized for using the word “cult” to describe the ICOC https://christianchronicle.org/icoc-mainline-leaders-meet-at-abilene-christian-1/ And there is a law case where an expert testified: “Church not a cult, says expert witness Tan Ooi Boon Central Christian Church hearings By Testifies that its practices were not 'strange, unnatural or harmful' AN EXPERT on religious studies yesterday said that the Central Christian Church here was not a cult because Us practices were "neither strange, unnatural or …” https://web.archive.org/web/20130928102343/http:/newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/SearchResults.aspx?keyword=central%20christian%20church%20hearings. And @CordlessLarry you believe the only Reliable sources are the ones accusing the church of being a “cult”? Tell me you are not serious? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not about believing or not believing the sources; it's about accurately reporting what they say. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So why are you excluding these sources and what they are saying from your editing in the LEAD and elsewhere? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The lede should summarise the main content of the article, so the material shouldn't simply be added there when it's not in the article. I don't oppose its inclusion in the body article. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It was already in the body of the article, unless you removed it over the past 6 months.

If no-one objects, I am going to remove the contested section and we can replace it once we have consensus here on the Talk page JamieBrown2011 (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The information is already in the article. It is how I found it. You have yet to answer the question "How is including it in the lead summary not following the WP:POV? Your opinions are not the bar for inclusion. Editaddict (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

My apologies - there are a couple of sentences on it. A single defamation case in Singapore (and we still don't have a source stating that the church was part of ICOC) doesn't merit inclusion in the lede to my mind. Per WP:LEDE, the lede "is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents". This isn't particularly important content. There's also the problem that "Others have found the church to not be a cult" isn't really supported by the source - it's original research to make that claim based on a single primary source. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

This explanation is very confusing. Perhaps it is because you misread and misremembered the article twice now. How does including this statement and reference to the Singapore case and the cult expert not fit this WP policy: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." Editaddict (talk) 21:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean I've misread the source or the Wikipedia article? I made a mistake in stating that the material wasn't covered in the body of the article, but I don't see where I've misrepresented the source. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, what you are stating is the WP:NPOV principle I am trying to follow to achieve a neutral point of view by presenting balance. It is simply a small addition that summarizes content that is already in the article and refers to a reputable disinterested source. Please show how this addition violates this principle. Editaddict (talk) 15:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

On the “original research” point @[[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry] is making, he is right, as editors we cant be writing our summary of the source being referenced, rather we should quote directly from it. On the RS and NPOV issue, @Editaddict you raise a valid point, why is the Singapore court case which is written about in the Strait Times (a Singapore newspaper) being ignored? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not being ignored - it gets two sentences at the start of the court cases section. I'm happy to discuss whether that's the appropriate weight to give the case (I think it probably is), but first you need to demonstrate that with secondary sources that the Singapore church involved in the case is indeed "a part of the ICOC family of churches", with suitable secondary sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

So firstly it is on their own website that they are an ICOC church (I have given the reference above already). 2ndly in the ICOCHistory website the court case and the results are covered in detail https://icochistory.org/download/la-story-courage-under-fire/?wpdmdl=754&refresh=659b9831268ab1704695857 JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Their website is a primary source and it doesn't establish that they were an ICOC church at the time of the court cases. The PDF you just linked is also a primary source (written by the ICOC's General Counsel); it does at least establish the connection, but it would be better to have a secondary source. I'm going to open an RfC on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

3rdly, the court case is discussed in the Singapore newspaper “The Strait Times” https://web.archive.org/web/20130928102343/http:/newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/SearchResults.aspx?keyword=central%20christian%20church%20hearings JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Those would be better sources, but do they mention ICOC? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

RfC on Singapore court case

At International Churches of Christ#Court cases and lawsuits, the article currently states: The Central Christian Church in Singapore, a part of the ICOC family of churches, won a court case (SINGAPORE HIGH COURT – SUIT NOs 846 and 848 of 1992 Judges LAI KEW CHAI J Date 29 August 1994 Citation [1995] 1 SLR 115) in which the judge ruled against a newspaper that had accused the Church of being a cult. An expert on religious studies testified that the Central Christian Church's practices were "neither strange, unnatural or harmful." The link between the Central Christian Church and the ICOC is supported by this primary source, provided by JamieBrown2011 in the discussion above.

The questions for the RfC are (a) whether the sourcing (including the primary source linking the Singapore church to the ICOC) is strong enough for this to be included and if so, (b) what the appropriate weight is to give this case and (c) whether it should be added to the article lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the question here only about the link between the two churches? Because the mention of the supreme court cases is based on Straits Times and seems pretty legitimate. I think it is strong enough for it to be included in the article. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

There's more than one question, Elmmapleoakpine (see a, b and c above). It's about whether the sourcing is strong enough to establish the link between the church in the Singapore case and the ICOC to include it in the ICOC article (the Straits Times source is good on the case but doesn't mention the ICOC), what weight to give it if it is included, and whether it also belongs in the article lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the link to the ICOC, it is stated on their website that they are an ICOC church (scroll to the bottom) https://centralchristianchurch.sg/

It is also stated on the ICOChistory website that the Central Christian Church in Singapore is part of the ICOC and at the time of the lawsuit https://icochistory.org/download/la-story-courage-under-fire/?wpdmdl=754&refresh=659b9831268ab1704695857. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

For reasons I already explained, the first of those sources isn't very helpful. I linked to the second one in the RfC text. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, so let me get this clear, you are confused/unsure as to whether the Central Christian Church is part of the ICOC. Yet it was started by the ICOC in 1988, and to this day remains in the ICOC https://centralchristianchurch.sg/our-history/ . Add to that, the lawsuit was thoroughly documented in the www.icochistory.org website and on the CCC’s own website https://centralchristianchurch.sg/our-legal-victory/. I am really unsure as to why you are confused. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not confused, no. I believe that the church is part of the ICOC. That doesn't mean we don't need a reliable source for the purposes of WP:VERIFY. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

In addition, as you can see in the discussion above, the question of following WP:NPOV has never been answered by those not wanting to add the link to the lede.

How does including the Singapore link (that is already in the article) not fit the WP:NPOV policy?

Neutrality and verifiability[edit]

Most problems with negative material can be avoided by adhering to standard WP policies, such as using good sources, balancing the content carefully, and writing in an unbiased way. When including negative material in an article, some things to check for include:

•    Ensure that the material is supported by reliable sources

•    Do not present the material in a way that over-emphasizes it

•     Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance

Editaddict (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

References