Talk:Alexander Suslin

Alexander Suslin

This page should be moved back to Alexander Suslin. Chesdovi (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed & done. Jheald (talk) 02:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Disagree, Zuslin is not mentioned as primary name on title page of original print-bringer (lit. orig. intro by original bringer to print). therein, spelling is alexandri hakohain, אלכסנדרי הכהן with mention of Zuslin as merely a "shinui shaim". PS, notice Hebrew site article name.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if even speakers of Hebrew will be able to work out from the romanization "shinui shaim" is Hebrew שינוי שם "transfer of a name," which has a he.wikipedia article שינוי שם (with not particulary distinctive content) linked to en.wikipedia article Name change? But anyway, where is the evidence that Suslin was not Alexander's name, and was "merely a name change"? The Encylopedia Judaica refers to Alexander as Suslin:

The unique project of re-editing the Aguddah of Alexander Suslin from manuscripts continues, and the following have thus far appeared: tractate Berakhot and the Mishnah of the other tractates to the order Zera'im, ... Encyclopaedia Judaica: Ra-Sam ed. Fred Skolnik, Michael Berenbaum - 2007

The name as used in WP:COMMONNAME WP:RS WP:V WP:UE should be restored. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Google Books finds only 4 hits for "Alexandri ha-Kohen", and only one (in Polish) for "Alexandri HaKohen". The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia titles its article "Alexander Suslin ha-Kohen of Frankfort" [1]. Now (unlike us) they don't repeat the name at the top of the article, so they tend to use very full names for their article titles, whereas we'd often use a shorter more concise name (per WP:TITLE) and leave the full name to line 1 of the article, so long as the shorter name is in common usage, and is sufficiently precise to identify the only probable encyclopedically notable individual of the name without ambiguity.

Given that "Alexander Suslin" is how he is referred to in the Encyclopedia Judaica; and that ha-Kohen is a title, but not a particularly identifying one, because a full 5% of the Jewish population are Kohens, there seems to me a strong case for simply titling the article "Alexander Suslin".

But in the spirit of compromise, and as it is also found quite often in books, shall we try "Alexander Suslin ha-Kohen" ? Jheald (talk) 03:10, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Please indicate whether that would be acceptable, so we can ask an admin to move the article to that name (which is currently taken up with a redirect). Jheald (talk) 03:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds okay. This is 262 out of 360 Google Book hits so yes, that'd be acceptable in this case. Though I think a look at the other 7 or 8 articles which in the last week had "ha-Kohen" added would indicate in some cases so, in some not. The problem appears to be that the editor is not just unwilling to consult English language sources, but actually opposed to the use of English language sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

On second thoughts it occurs to me that there is a WP policy somewhere (which?) which goes against this, that WP:titles should default to the simplest distinctive WP:Commonname. For the same reason we don't add English middle names and Russian patronymics into most bios. the appellation ha-Kohen is not, in the context of a medieval writer, a distinctive part of the common name, and to rename to that would affect 1000s of articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the page move history... it seems User Marecheth Ho'eElohuth is not basing his move on English sources, but Hebrew sources where (not necessarily surprisingly) the Hebrew name only is used. Reverted to WP:COMMONNAME

• (cur | prev) 23:47, 7 February 2012‎ In ictu oculi (talk | contribs)‎ m (3,733 bytes) (moved Alexandri HaKohen to Alexander Suslin over redirect) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 00:17, 5 February 2012‎ Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk | contribs)‎ m (3,733 bytes) (moved Alexander Suslin to Alexandri HaKohen: see talk page.) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 00:08, 5 February 2012‎ Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk | contribs)‎ (3,733 bytes) (Undid revision 474893744 by Jheald (talk)Zuslin is not mentioned on title page of original print. therein, spelling is alexandri hakohain, אלכסנדרי הכהן) (undo)
• (cur | prev) 02:44, 4 February 2012‎ Jheald (talk | contribs)‎ m (3,740 bytes) (moved Alexandri HaKohain to Alexander Suslin over redirect: rv move -- per WP:COMMONNAME in EN; and per precision, since Suslin is more distinctively identifying than HaKohen) (undo)

User Marecheth Ho'eElohuth, please, you must propose this move properly by RM if you wish to proceed with it. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:52, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Name change

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move to Alexandri HaKohen Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

---

Leaving out the I and title wasn't what the original original bringer-to-print reference to author had in mind. English sources of name (JE etc.) are not necessarily reliable in this instance. Kohen title is likely as he is commonly referred to by the Maharil and others with the "כ" in his acronym.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 13:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Assistance requested on WT:JEW Jheald (talk) 12:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I cannot understand the above point, the link given shows that the frontespiece of the 1571 Cracow edition uploaded on hebrewbooks.org clearly says in Hebrew אלכסנדר זוסלין הכהן - Alexander Suslin ha-Cohen in bold. The Hebrew language index on hebrewbooks.org (not that this is WP:RS) also clearly says אלכסנדר זוסלין הכהן - following what is on the 1571 cover, and the hebrewbooks.org English language index says Alexander Suslin, no ha-Cohen, reflecting that the appellative ha-Cohen is not commonly applied to medieval authors with a distinct surname in English sources and bibliographies. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct on all you've mentioned. But, taking into account that hebrewbooks (and JE sources) likely merely copied title page would discount mentioning them, thus leaving us with the title page vs. the original print-bringer (who, btw also notated several comments on the principal text that indicate him as a reliable source). this name change template boils down to putting these two against each other in the ring; judges, cast your votes.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 17:13, 9 February 2012 (UTC)_{PS- He is also called Alexandri כהן in Sefer "Kinoth Lublin" (5387).}

HaKohen is not part of his name. It is an denominator. As such, it should not be part of the title of this article about about whose name is (names are) Alexander Suslin. Debresser (talk) 22:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not a denominator if his peers called him by it nor if it was used to differentiate this Alexandri from others in his era.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

He was surely not called "HaKohen" by his peers, friends or relatives. The word "HaKohen" is a denominator, referring to him being from the Kohen caste. It is not even a family name. Debresser (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support page name change to Alexandri HaKohen.--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Aren't you the nominator? So you are in support of yourself? Debresser (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Per what I wrote above, with only four hits on Google Books for "Alexandri ha-Kohen", and only one (in Polish) for "Alexandri HaKohen", these options are unacceptable. This is English Wikipedia, and we follow how he has most commonly been referred to in English, not how he may have signed himself in Hebrew. The only two acceptable options (in my view) are either Alexander Suslin or Alexander Suslin ha-Kohen. Jheald (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

"HaKohen" then, see WP:HEBREW. Debresser (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

agree with name change proposal by Marecheth Ho'eElohuth. (looking at the Alexandri disambiguation page this name should be there too).--חודר לעומר (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.