|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ancient Rome article.|
|Archives: 1, 2|
|Ancient Rome has been listed as a level-3 vital article in History. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as C-Class.|
|Ancient Rome was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|This subject is featured in the Outline of ancient Rome, which is incomplete and needs further development. That page, along with the other outlines on Wikipedia, is part of Wikipedia's Outline of Knowledge, which also serves as the table of contents or site map of Wikipedia.|
- 1 Edit request from , 9 November 2011
- 2 wrong
- 3 Grammar mistakes in the second sentence of the section "Fall of the Roman Empire"
- 4 Reasons for my This section needs additional citations for verification.
- 5 Caesar and the First Triumvirate - Spelling error correction request.
- 6 Chronology section
- 7 "res publica" should be linked to the "res publica" article
- 8 Typo in family section
- 9 Burning of Rome
- 10 Antonine Plague casualties need to be fixed.
- 11 Sole superpower of antiquity?
- 12 Please correct!
- 13 Separate fact and legend
- 14 The Roman Kingdom article deserves more attention.
- 15 Eastern limits mention in the opening section...
- 16 dates
- 17 mistake
- 18 Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2014
- 19 Edit request from 11 April 2014
- 20 GA Review
- 21 Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014
- 22 Inconsistent maps?
Edit request from , 9 November 2011
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
Some of the information on this page is incorrect. I have studied Ancient Rome for years and am highly knowledgeable of this topic and would like to help out by making sure you have a reliable source. thanks
- Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Grammar mistakes in the second sentence of the section "Fall of the Roman Empire"
Christian values, which were centered in a heaven on afterlife, were responsible for making Romans less warlike and to don’t risk their lives for the country – in total opposition to the old and traditional Roman values.
Reasons for my This section needs additional citations for verification.
Apologies for not entering the discussion forum at the time I made this change. This is an important article and gives a much needed base from which to explore Roman Civilization. I thank those contributors who have done such a great job in putting this together. I have been editing grammar etc., as I can see that some hard working contributors don't have English as their first language. I applaude your work and am more than happy to fix grammer. I have been concerned that some important statements are not supported by references. E.g. "Sulla also held two dictatorships and one more consulship which established the crisis and decline of Roman Republic." I do not claim to be an expert in this area, which is why I would like to able to follow a reference to support the statement. I stress, I am not critising contributors and chose the above example at random. Given the work put into this article, it deserves to be of the highest standard. Proxxt (talk) 09:00, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Caesar and the First Triumvirate - Spelling error correction request.
At this time the strife between populares and optimates increased, and they eacj wanted a strong new man to lead the Roman Republic - with some internal oppositions to this in the optimates party, namely Cicero and Cato the Younger. eacj should = each --Artofscripting (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Typo in family section
Just noticed a typo at the very end of the Family section of the wiki article. It states:
"The husband was usually older than the bride. While upper class girls married very young, there is evidence that lower class women often married in their late teens or early 1920s."
Obviously that's supposed to be just "20s".
Burning of Rome
It is my understanding that most historians say that Nero in fact did not "start the fires". Or at least this is a point of contention. However the article states it as fact in the section Ancient_Rome#From_Tiberius_to_Nero. Could someone with more knowledge about this weight in (hopefully with references)? I would like to make the change but I don't feel comfortable changing with my limited knowledge of the subject.
Antonine Plague casualties need to be fixed.
Currently the article states the following in the History section:
"Marcus Aurelius, known as the Philosopher, was the last of the Five Good Emperors. He was a stoic philosopher and wrote a book called Meditations. He defeated barbarian tribes in the Marcomannic Wars as well as the Parthian Empire. His co-emperor, Lucius Verus died in 169 AD, probably victim of the Antonine Plague, a pandemic that swept nearly five thousand people through the Empire in 165–180 AD."
The cited reference  though, states 5 million were killed, which makes more sense than the absurdly low five thousand, though it still seems low in an empire of 50 to 100 million to have had such a devastating impact on the empire, including killing both emperors. Carsonkaan (talk) 18:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Sole superpower of antiquity?
In the opening paragraph it says Rome was the sole superpower of antiquity. It is an unsourced statement and is quite incorrect. The Achaemenid Empire and the Macedonian Empire were certainly "superpowers" in their day.--Tataryn77 (talk) 06:58, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's quite a subjective statement actually. How exactly does one define "superpower"? Do they have to meet specific criteria? Is it relative to other states of the time? In any case, you are right in that it is an unsourced statement, so it has been modified. Cadiomals (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
"His co-emperor, Lucius Verus died in 169 AD, probably victim of the Antonine Plague, a pandemic that swept nearly five thousand people through the Empire in 165–180 AD."
Separate fact and legend
Please, can we have a clear separation between what is known from archeological evidence or independent sources, and what is simply a rewriting of the traditional legends? For instance, the section about the Republic states that according to legend it started in 509 and then goes on to mention "facts" from 510, 509 and so on till it reaches historical times, with no clear transition. As a reader who is not a specialist, I would really like to know how to make my mind... The Wikipedia article about the history of Rome should stick to facts. The legends/traditional account of the history of Rome should be put on a separate page. 2A01:E35:2E5B:C970:224:E8FF:FEB9:BFD1 (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
The entire tone is not written in an encyclopedic point of view. It reminds me of a textbook.
The Romans faced the most difficult foe of all!
Of course, the boy had his belongings carried by a slave!
- We have this problem with all ancient histories including the Bible. One can either forget all the anecdotal, unsubstantiated "history" in which case, we are left with nearly nothing except a few hard-to-explain artifacts, or report them as Rome (and other cultures) did for hundreds of years and work them out as best as possible. It is important that Romans believed this was their history.
- I changed the education subsection somewhat and rm the slave carrying the rich kids books, which seems beside the point in a paragraph which is now about nobles, who were differently educated.
- Couldn't find the "foe" phrase. Changed already? Student7 (talk) 22:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The Roman Kingdom article deserves more attention.
I have noticed that there has been a lot more attention given to the Roman Republic, Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire Articles. Why? The Roman Kingdom was the foundation for all three. And there has to at least be a new map placed in the infobox of the article that depicts the amount of territory the kiingdom had. Keeby101 (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
- As the article says, "Little is certain about the history of the kingdom, as nearly no written records from that time survive, and the histories about it that were written during the Republic and Empire are largely based on legends." I've read some of these and they sound non-WP:RS. Written records, if any, were lost. Student7 (talk) 19:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Eastern limits mention in the opening section...
Hey, guys, I just changed the bit saying it stretched from the Atlantic to Judaea to Arabia Petraea (then the Byzantine Palaestina Salutaris) as this was further east than Judaea and was the eastern limit for a good 500 years. But should we put Mesopotamia (Roman province)? Since that technically was the eastern limit, albeit for a relatively shorter time? Thanks. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(Ταλκ) 21:44, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's a contentious issue, and the situation is briefly outlined at WP:ERA. Nev1 (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
14 million for Rome's upper estimate most likely is 1.4 million. Please verify and correct. Etienne Forest Tsukuba, Japan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 240F:60:4A8D:1:7860:54CC:888C:D21D (talk) 14:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out - it's been there for years. Population estimates are notoriously difficult and unreliable but 14 million is just preposterous - even 1.4 million is pretty wild unless we include transients during election times, major festivals, games etc. Anyway, none of the cited sources seem to support it.. Have stuck with an upper limit of around a million, and a lower of 450,000 - it's a reasonable range, and is cited at both ends. Haploidavey (talk) 16:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, I've had a scout through the citations. The utterly whacky 14 million may not be a typo; the Oates source has "There have been various estimates made since the Renaissance which vary from half a million to fourteen millions of inhabitants. At the present time the work of Beloch1 on population in antiquity is probably regarded in general as authoritative. His estimate for Rome is somewhere in the neighborhood of eight hundred thousand." In this case, "present" means the 1930's. Amazing top range there, but I don't think we need burden the reader of this general article with such a curious but monstrously unhelpful range of statistics. Haploidavey (talk) 17:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2014
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Not done: There's already a link to Ancient Carthage the first time it's mentioned, at the top of the Punic Wars section. LittleMountain5 04:17, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Edit request from 11 April 2014
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
The section "Rome wtf" needs to be deleted.
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Ancient Rome/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
"States, such as Palmyra, temporarily divided the Empire in a 3rd-century crisis". Perhaps that could be clearer (how did small city-states divide a huge empire?).
" in his classical epic poem the Aeneid. In the Aeneid, ..." Maybe avoid the repetition.
"Concrete made possible the paved, durable Roman roads": so they were constructed with concrete? Needs a ref, and I think some explanation. Roman_roads#Construction_and_engineering says nothing about the use of cement or concrete?
In fact the whole Ancient_Rome#Technology section needs more referencing.
I have marked up a few sections, e.g. Punic Wars, Government, Society, Economy, Games and recreation, that need more references.
There is scope for an image in Punic Wars - you could have Hannibal and Scipio side-by-side, perhaps.
"Quaestors were made automatic members of the Senate". Perhaps they were automatically made members.
"Portrait sculpture during the period" - which?
Adjectives are somewhat astray in some places, e.g. "the famous Hadrian's Wall", the "famously decisive Battle of Zama" - who says it's famous?
Military: perhaps add an image of a Roman ship to balance the infantry soldier.
Cuisine section - needs citations, and some expansion. At the moment it consists of WP:OR-ish generalities. I suggest you briefly mention what was eaten at a Cena and say a little about Food and dining in the Roman Empire. There is scope for an image (from a mosaic or fresco) here. You might briefly describe one or two characteristic ingredients such as garum, and the empire-wide trade in olive oil.
Scholarly studies: seems to fade out a century ago? I suggest you put the Russian title into a reference instead of the main text. But mainly it needs to be merged with Historiography, doesn't it? If there's a difference, do explain it, as it isn't clear. And move the merged section to the end of the article.
Images: all from Commons except the Valentinian III family and Trajan's Market (which ought to be moved there).
The image of the Forum should say it is a (CGI) model or reconstruction.
Image captions: there are many people here, over a very long time period, so dates might be a help in all the captions.
The maps are noticeably in very different (ok, random) styles, which is quite distracting to the reader. It would be desirable (so, not a GA requirement) to harmonise these.
References are formatted very diversely, from naked links to full citations. This is not a GA issue but needs to be tidied up radically for FA.
There are some footnotes mixed in with the references, e.g. #3, #226. It would be best to separate these out as "Notes" and to leave the refs as "References". This is not a GA requirement.
- I'm unfortunately going to have to fail this for lack of any response. Nom seems to have ceased editing (since 6 September) and does not respond. So that this will not be a complete waste of time, let me say that if anyone wishes to revive this GA attempt, all they need to do is to address the above items, file it at GAN and ping me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 17:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Given that the dates are only 25 years apart, there seem unexpectedly huge differences between the final map in the animated sequence at the top of this article (File:Roman Republic Empire map.gif), and the map at the top of Byzantine Empire (File:Justinian555AD.png). Can both these really be correct? 184.108.40.206 (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Justinian I gained Italy, but as an empty conquest (a depopulated country with a kernel of the Gothic nation left intact). The other additions, of southern Spain and Africa, I can't account for right now. They might be erroneous or very temporary, superficial acknowledgements of suzerainty offered by states to whichever power seemed for the moment to be ascendant. The maps don't seem to cite their sources, although I haven't looked closely. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yes to both. See Exarchate_of_Africa#Establishment_of_the_Exarchate. The re-conquest was brief, hard to maintain (thus the "exarhates"). Would be "nice" to have maps match, but from a modern pov, it hardly seemed to matter to Rome/Byzantine Empire. Student7 (talk) 21:48, 20 December 2014 (UTC)