Talk:Antoni Gaudí/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Sculpted or built?

Are his works actually sculpted rather than built?

Built, but there are some sculptors working on there as Subirachs. But the question is: is yet the Gaudi's project? (Jaume from Barcelona).

3 times higher?

Are you sure about that 3 times higher thing? Can't seem to find it anywhere, though could be so.... in Gaudi's coppersmith imagination

Three times is incorrect. The central tower is supposed to be twice the height of the facade towers. The central tower is still proposed and four of the facade towers have been completed, one of which was finished by the time of his death. They are in fact, as he intended. ref. (Bonet i Armengol, J 2000, The essential Gaudi : the geometric modulation of the Church of the Sagrada Familia, 1a edn, Editorial Portic, Barcelona.)

Corpse

The part about his corpse being run over is wrong, he wasn't dead. He went to a hospital that today is no longer a hospital, I forget the name, and he died a few days later. The part about him not being recognized is right though.

ABB

Sorry, but I think that Gaudí was born in Reus not in Riudoms.

Statehood

The article states that Gaudi was in favour of "statehood" for Catalonia. This is a highly ambigious statement. It was not until the Republic of Spain that Catalonia regained statehood, which was soon repressed under Franco. So does "statehood" here simply mean its own government like in a federation or is it an indirect way to say complete independence? It would be helpful to have this cleared up and citations provided.

Gaudi's religion

Why doesn't it include in his personal information that he was a Roman Catholic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.24.48 (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The article does include that. Section Later years: Gaudí was a devout Catholic, to the point that in his later years he abandoned secular work and devoted his life to Catholicism and his Sagrada Família. Jaho (talk) 11:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Awkward logic in biographical information

"The artist's parents, Francesc Gaudí Serra and Antònia Cornet Bertran, both came from families of coppersmiths. It was this exposure to nature at an early age that influenced him to incorporate natural shapes into his later work".

I think these two sentences together sound awkward. Just because he was a grandchild of coppersmiths it does not seem logical that he was exposed to nature because of that. Coppersmiths do not have much to do with nature. As I understand it, coppersmiths used to do metalworks mostly in inhouse workshops... Maybe it would be more logical to assume that he was exposed to nature because he was born in Reus, but I am not sure about that either.

I am sorry I can't fix this myself, because I don't know what the intended meaning was. Please correct if you are familiar with Gaudí's biography.

Daarribas 22:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.135.44.13 (talk)

Spanish

Antoni Guadi never felt Spanish, he never spoke Spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. It is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognized nation, (Politics) legally, the Catalan nationality exists. Define him as a Spanish It's like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.

Try to use a dead popular person as icon of independentism is a poor usage of Gaudi. Try to protect your political ideas by yourself.

Sagrada Família

In Catalan is 'Sagrada Família' -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27

Having checked the Catalan version of www.sagradafamilia.org , I find that the Catalan name is Temple Expiatori de la Sagrada Família. - montréalais

¿Y por qué lleva tilde en Catalán? La saqué de la palabra, pero voy a ponerla otra vez. - ElAmericano 01:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Catalan and Portuguese count vowels where Spanish counts syllables. Hence Catalan família and Portuguese António for Spanish familia and Antonio. --Error 01:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

(( Kero20082002@yahoo.com / Kero20082002@hotmail.com ))

Since there's no Catalonian nationality, but Spanish, I changed it from "Catalan" to "Spanish from Catalonia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 16:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Dear Karljoos, as you can see in this long talk page people have wasted a long time discussing about the nationality issue. We seemed to have a consensual version (the "Spanish Catalan" thing) accounting in a single expression for the two possible meanings of "nationality" (the legal and the cultural one). As far as I can see this kind of compromise is the only way to keep the endless edit war at a minimal level. I am afraid that your proposal would not have this benefit as it would highlight only the legal aspect. --Carles Noguera (talk) 23:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

"Spanish Catalan" sounds good to me. Cheers. --Karljoos (talk) 14:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Fine! Thanks for your collaboration. Cheers. --Carles Noguera (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Spanish Catalan sounds pretty weird though. Of course, a lot of time can be wasted discussing about the sex of the angels, but... the truth would be still the same.

Surely it would be Catalan Spanish with Catalan being the adjective specifying the type of Spaniard. The point made above with regard to the Dalai Lama seems valid to me though. Catalans have a recognised national identity with a far stronger legal basis in Spain than does Tibet in China. Perhaps a courageous soul would like to edit the Dalai Lama's page, 'cause I'm not touching it with a ten foot pole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrcBourke (talk • contribs) 19:29, 13 January 2011 (UTC) I neglected to sign this properly, apologies.BrcBourke (talk) 22:23, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Antonio and Antoni

Gaudi himself signed as Antonio, Antoni or Anton. Trying to impose "Antoni" as the "only pure way" of naming him is, at least, incorrect and it seems to me a "bit" biased. Here you have one link showing one of several Gaudi's signature. http://www.adn.es/cultura/20080619/IMA-3503-GAUDI Apart from his signature, I haven't seen his baptism certificate, for sure, but it is quite curious that different sources in internet have different versions: some people say that his certificate states "Antoni" whereas other say that you can read "Antonio" there. Who's right? However, all sources that I have found state that their surnames were "Gaudi i Cornet", with a typical catalan "i" meaning "and". If Catalan were forbidden and you couldn't use catalan (as some people use as a reason to say that his "pure" name is Antoni), they couldn't have used that "i". I think that both Antoni or Antonio are correct names, reflecting the bilingualism in Catalonia. 06:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Miquel

Antoni (in Catalan) was his first name, now, how to rename the page? -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27

Is Antoni his Catalan first name, or what? The article's name Antonio, but that name isn't mentioned in the article. jheijmans, Wednesday, June 26, 2002

Checking some other sources, it appears that he's already very well known as Antonio (at least in some other online encyclopedias) -- the count of occurrences seems to be about equal for both names. So, I will create a redirect with Antoni in the title, and mention both uses of the name in the header. jheijmans, Thursday, June 27, 2002

Antonio Gaudí is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Antoni Gaudí i Cornet.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you! -- User:62.82.143.107

I don't know if that is true. What name did he use for his publishing? Anyway:

• he is often found now in Spanish and in English as Antonio. It has to be mentioned.

--Error 00:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Ack! my intention with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antoni_Gaud%C3%AD&diff=prev&oldid=19092179 was only to restore the proper glyphs to some links. I inadvertantly changed some Antoni to Antonio. I'm onboard with his given name, Antoni. When was the dictitorial order given to change such names? By whom? Why? with that info we can write a paragraph about the issue. -->>sparkit|TALK<< 00:30, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Checking various language versions incl. Spanish and Catalan, all go with Antoni without referring the -io. Maybe a footnote is in order but the article should use Antoni. ~ trialsanderrors 08:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I boldly disagree and reenter a mention of Antonio. --Error 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Be it the act of Franco or not (and my family have no reasons to love him, I assure you), the recognised name tends to be "Antonio" if mentioned, at least here in the UK. Whilst I think that the world ought to have known him as Antoni, it knows him as Antonio and we should respect that and not claim that somehow it is incorrect; Catalan authorities transliterate names of kings of Castilla pre-1492 in history books without concern, and long may they do so. I am therefore removing "incorrectly" from the article. Wee Jimmy (talk) 22:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Your own personal perception on how he's known or not is not relevant nor an objective fact and shouldn't form part of an encyclopedian article. His name is what it is -and linguists say that proper names, except those of kings and popes, can't be translated- and personal views on the percentage of times he is called Antoni or Antonio should not matter. Add to this that the English Wikipedia is read by people from other places outside of the UK therefore the way he may be called in the UK it's not important -at least, not for the first paragraph of this article. I'm changing again what you erased. And will do again if you persist in trying to correct what, linguistically at least, can not be corrected.

I had to add the "erroneously" part again... man, if you want this to be a serious enciclopedian article you have to follow the law, in this case the linguistic laws: PROPER NAMES CANNOT BE TRANSLATED EXCEPT THOSE OF KINGS AND POPES!! get it? it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of KNOWLEDGE on LINGUISTICS!. Do you want to state that he is sometimes referred to as "Anotnio"? then so be it, but don't mislead people making them think that calling him "Antonio" is correct or linguistically approved, it has to be clearly explained that the Spanish translation is an error, just like mr. George Bush is called "George" in Barcelona, and not "Jordi" (that would be the Catalan translation of George). Stop bullshitting people!

I think what you are trying to say is :

"I had to add the "erroneously" part again. You have to follow the law, proper names cannot be translated except those of kings and popes! Do you want to state that he is sometimes referred to as "Anotnio"? then so be it, but don't think that "Antonio" is correct or linguistically approved, it has to be clearly explained that the Spanish translation is an error, just like mr. George Bush is called "George" in Barcelona, and not "Jordi"... the Catalan translation of George."

Sorry for the rewording, it is hard to understand your point through the shouting, hyperbole and cussing.--Knulclunk (talk) 00:27, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you guys ever get tired of arguing about Gaudi being "catalan", "spanish" or "spanish catalan" or being "antoni" or "antonio"?

It's a very simple issue. Here in Catalonia at the university and at the high school lessons are usually in Catalan. I have studied architecture at the Universitat Politècnica de Catalunya so I have always heard his name as Antoni Gaudí i Cornet. By other hand, Castilians always used to translate everything, personal names included, so you could hear a Spaniard talk about Enrique IV de Inglaterra (Henry IV) or about Cristóbal Colón (Cristoforo Columbo). During the dicatorial period (Primo de Rivera and Franco's Regime) other languages than Castilian were forbidden and names, surnames and local places names in Galician, Basque and Catalan were always translated (examples: Anxo (Galician name) = Ángel; Jaume (Catalan name) = Santiago; Antoni = Antonio; Iñaki (basque) = Ignacio, Sant Cugat (Catalan town) = San Cucufate, Girona = Gerona, and so on) (Jaume from Barcelona).

Antoni Gaudi is my great aunt's godfather. He was definitely born in Reus, and he is Catalan, from Spain. His name is Antoni, thats how my mother always heard it growing up. Case closed, end of discussion. Now you can get on with your lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.120.110 (talk) 01:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Writing as an impartial foreigner living in Barcelona I have only ever heard him referred to as Antoni. Whilst there are undoubtedly many official contemporary sources using 'Antonio' the use of this name would have been imposed by the state and would not reflect what he was actually known as. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrcBourke (talk • contribs) 19:17, 13 January 2011 (UTC) As a noob I made an error by failing to sign properlyBrcBourke (talk) 22:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Masterworks on subpages

Opinions: Should a person's masterworks be wikipedia subpages? I think they should be standalone articles for simplicity in cross-referencing, esp. if important enough, e.g. Mona_lisa rather than Leonardo/Mona Lisa....

What is the general consensus then ?
The point against the solution would be that it is naturally connected to the given person.
--Kpjas

I really don't mind the subpages, I just am thinking of a typical need to reference without having extra characters to type. Sort of the "World Book" approach, ya wanna know about Sagrada Familia? Ya pick up the S volume... I don't agree that subpages are "naturally connected" (v.s.) any more than a separate article with a link. And how do you handle collaborations? After all Gaudi himself said "Work is the fruit of collaboration"...

Among the works, El Capricho at Santillana del Mar and the bishop's palace at Astorga are missing. Somebody, get the dates and include them. -- Error 03:44 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Subpages are now deprecated, anyway. - Montréalais

No, they should by no means be subpages. That is not Wikipedia policy for any articles. To move Wikipedia into a massive hierarchy (actually, it would turn into some sort of heirarchical web) would be chaos. - ElAmericano 01:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Other works by Gaudi?

I've been visiting the official page for La Sagrada Familia where I've found these other constructions which mentioned as Gaudi's work :

• El Capricho
  • 1883-1885, at Comillas in Northern Spain -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Güell Real State
  • I have no idea what this would refer to, and would hesitate to add it to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Güell Palacel
  • A typo for "Güell Palace". The article lists it as "Palau Güell", its Catalan name. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Episcopal Palace of Astorga
  • Archepiscopal, actually. 1887-1893. Gaudí was nominally the architect, but as built it doesn't have a lot to do with his plans. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Teresianas School
  • more commonly known as the Convent and School of Santa Theresa 1889-1894. Very restrained for Gaudí; Mower describes it as being "of puritanical simplicity" -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Casa Botines
  • 1891-1894, in León -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Güell Cellars
  • I'm not sure what his might refer to. Might be the crypt of the Colònia Güell Church -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Bellesguard
  • 1900-1902, in the Bonanova suburb up near Tibidabo. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Cathedral of Mallorca
  • I'm not aware of him having worked on that, and I'd want to see a more specific citation as to his role. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Visited the place a couple of year's ago, and the shop was full of books on Gaudi. He was brought in to help with the restoration in 1901, his ideas were partially implemented, before he withdrew and the work stopped. Beautiful canopy above the alter - well worth a visit if you're in Palma. See the amendments in La Seu's entry. AMe 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
• La Pedrera
  • Nickname of Casa Milà. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
• Colònia Güell Church
  • That would be the crypt, mentioned in our article -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's the URL to the page http://www.sagradafamilia.org/eng/temple/gaudi_obra.htm . I just wanted to check this with other who know more about him and then insert this names in the article. -- Shervinafshar 16:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)‍

Comments interspersed above. Could you give a link to the precise page you are referring to?

My dates come from Gaudí, by David Mower, London:Oresko Books, 1977. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

• Güell Real State. Refers to a Güell's Estate in Pedralbes (7, av. Pedralbes - Barcelona). Gaudí built the main door, (with an expressive forge-work dragon), the wall and some little pavilions. See [1]
• Güell Cellars. See [2]
• Cathedral of Mallorca. Gaudí worked in the restoration of the cathedral (1903-1914) (a young Josep Maria Jujol collaborated). See [3]
• Colònia Güell Church. Yes, only the crypt was built, and it's a masterpiece, Unesco's World Heritage. See [4]

--Joan sense nick 01:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit link problems

Does anyone know how to fix the edit link problem. Very bad. - ElAmericano 01:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to clarify. I don't see any problem. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The first couple of sections don't have "edit" links by the headers. Then, the late history has three such links beside it. - ElAmericano 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem isn't with the article, it's with the software. This tends to happen when there are a lot of images, or big images. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Family

[5]: Anon changed "oldest of five" to "youngest of five", no citation, I have no idea whether this is a correction of vandalism, would someone please cite or would someone knowledgable with an account please weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The correction was, as it turns out, correct. I miswrote before, when I based my additions on the Spanish version of a source. - ElAmericano 22:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Interesting Information?

I removed the following section because it sounds like nonsense:

Although a big cat lover, he was less of a fan of smaller creatures, such as the wasp. This was shown when Gaudi used a large stick and lots of preservation to chase the wasps in Spain. They are yet to return. Gaudi was also a very generous man and did a lot of work for charity, most notably sacrificing his leg (right) to save the life of a small child, unfortunately the leg was too big.

Anyone know if part of this is based on fact and just poor translation, or is this utter nonsense? In any case it shouldn't be in the midst of his professional biography ~ trialsanderrors 08:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If this is not nonsense, then Mallorca is not an island. - Jmabel | Talk 20:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why only Catalan?

I can't understand why the article says he was a "Catalan architect" and not a "Spanish architect". Are we politizicing the Wikipedia?. I'm Andalusian and I don't see that the articles of Lorca, Velazquez, Picasso, Machado, Cernuda, Murillo, Alberti or Aleixandre say "Andalusian artist". And I don't see why the article cannot say that Catalonia is not a country or that it belongs to Spain. It gives the impression that Catalonia is an independent nation when it is not. The name of Spain is only used to enlarge the figure of the architect as if to enlarge the figure of Velazquez we use the word "Europe".

I have a strong respect for Catalan nationalism but I don't think we have to support it in Wikipedia by using sentences such as "Catalan artist" without making explicit that all Catalans are Spanish as of today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 21 August 2006.

People keep changing it. It should probably say (I'm nowiki'ing here to show where the links go) [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]]. By the way, Wikipedia also tends to identify cultural figures as "English", "Scottish", etc., not "British"; similar matter.

But there is no possible comparison between England or Scotland with Catalonia. They don´t share the same history. England and Scotland are countries inside another country and have also been countries for many centuries. Catalonia has never been a country. England and Scotland are different countries when they play soccer or rugby (not in the Olympic Games) but Catalonia has never played against another country in a official game. By the way, I agree with the definition as Spanish Catalan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .

The issue is trickier for the Catalans than the Andaluzes, because "Spanish" in every sense is inclusive of Andalucía; [[Spain|Spanish]] is inclusive of the Catalans, but [[Spanish people||Spanish]] is not.

Gaudí was about as emphatic a Catalan nationalist as they come: he usually refused to speak Spanish. As far as I know, none of the individuala you mention (except maybe Lorca) had a comparable relation to their Andaluz identity, but I'd be ready to stand corrected. It probably would be appropriate to mention Lorca being Andaluz more prominently in his article than we do, because he is an emphatically Andaluz cultural figure.

That is true. Most of the individuals I mentioned are not Andalusian nationalists. Not even Lorca or Alberti were neither Spanish nor Andalusian nationalists. But many of them had a prominent Andaluz identity comparable to any Catalan nationalist. You don´t have to be a nationalist to have a regional identity. But the point I want to emphasize is that I don´t think we should say "a Catalan or an Andalusian painter" for example, no matter if the individual did not consider himself Spanish. I think that we should say the nationality the individual has or had and then, later in a different paragraph, state their political or nationalistic identity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .

By the way, not all Catalans are Spanish, even today: Narbonne, Perpignan, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That is true. Thank you for the answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .

abslolute nonsence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.150.169 (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Gaudi was a Spanish national. The subtleties about the status of Catalonia cannot be assumed general knowledge by the readers of English Wikipedia; hence there must be a reference to Spain in the opening section; if only to support the non-Spanish readers (the target group of this English encyclopdia). Arnoutf (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Wheater you like it or not, he was Spanish. He was also Catalan, bur he was born in Spain. Don't you have anything better to discuss about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 00:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Catalonia is not a country, so nationality is Spanish. Please stop changing it. He was a Spanish from Catalia. Can we leave politics outside this article, please? --Karljoos (talk) 16:29, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Gaudí was Catalan, never spanish

Gaudí was Catalan, never spanish. During the dictatorship of José Antonio Primo de Rivera he was arrested by the Spanih police because he answered in Catalan to the police. This is just an anecdote of his life, but is very representative to show what I'm trying to say. I know Catalonia is (still) not a state but it hurt my eyes when I read such thing like "the Spanish Catalan architect" or similar. Please if you want to know more you just can go to Antoni Gaudí (in the Catalan wikipedia), translate (with google's "language tools" is quite easy) and read the seccion about "Gaudí and the catalanism". Even in the english wikipedia at Antoni Gaudí#Social and political influences says that "promoted the Catalan movement for regaining sovereignty from Spain [...]"!

I use to edit in the Catalan wikipedia, but what I don't like about it is that the states have write the history. And Spain, wrote our history. In the case of Gaudí, I know that a lot of people don't know what or where is Catalonia and, in consequence, they need an explanation like " X town, Catalonia, Spain" (or simply "X town, Spain), but saying that Gaudí was Spanish has no sense. In one hand, sure there are politics in the english wikipedia which say: that if this guy born in Barcelona, then is Spanish...acording to this has sense, but Gaudí never considered himself Spanish, so its a contradiction and then is when the wikipedia becomes unreliable... and its a pity. Sorry for my English, but I prefer to speak 2 languages perfectly (Catalan and Spanih) and another one not so good, instead of just knowing one. Please, if you want to answer go to my page on the Catalan wikipedia (I probably would see it there sooner than in the english wiki) Thank you! --Catalaalatac (talk) 17:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

By the way! If you want to expand the article just translate it from the Catalan wikipedia. Is a featured article and its really good. --Catalaalatac (talk) 18:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

If he was from Catalonia, he was SPANISH, but if he was from Rousillon (France) he was French. As he was born in Catalonia he was SPANISH. That is evident.--83.44.102.221 (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Is the Oxford Style Guide nationlist?

The Oxford Style Guide describes him simply as "Catalan architect". I don't think there is a political agenda there. It is more precise to say he is Catalan, the same as it is more precise to describe someone as 'English' than 'British'. If such as respected, non-political publication like the Oxford Style Guide can do it, I don't see why we can't on the Wikipedia.

I'm reverting from the idiot who tried to write "Catalonia Community" (but couldn't even spell it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.168.179 (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Gaudi's Nationality

Antoni Guadi never felt spanish, he never spoke spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. Is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognited nation, (See Catalan Status of autonomy) legaly exist the Catalan nationality. Is like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.

According to the statistics of the "Generalitat" (Catalonian Government) more people speak Spanish in Catalonia than Catalan, so what you say is ridiculous. Catalonia´s own statistics say that there are more Spanish than Catalonian speakers in Catalonia. That is the truth.--83.44.102.221 (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

And anyway, whatever his language, nationality doesn´t depend on the language. Americans and Austrlians speak English and they don´t say "Nationality: English". They are born in a country called United States or Australia, which are different from the United Kingdom. The same way, in Argentina or Mexico they speak Spanish but they don´t say "Nationality: Spanish", but Argentine or Mexican. Sorry, but an independent country called "Catalonia" DOESN´T EXIST, so don´t manipulate Wikipedia. Gaudi was SPANISH. Period.--83.44.102.221 (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

It is true that he never felt Spanish. But when he lived his passport said he was Spanish and his nationality was Spanish. Catalonia is not a country. The Catalan Status of Autonomy says it is a nation but it says that in the preface so it doesn´t have full legality. As far as I know it does not exist a country that is recognised in the United Nations and that is called Catalonia. When a catalan travels abroad he-she shows a Spanish passport, not a Catalan passport. When a catalan athlete goes to the Olympics he participates under the Spanish flag. etcetera. I´m not an anti-Catalan nationalism. I´m a liberal and I think Catalans may have the right to be considered a country. But as of today Catalonia is a region, comunidad autonoma, in Spain. And this is an encyclopedia and it should be objective instead of a place where political ideas are showed through.

That is why I said that first he should be considered as a Spanish Catalan artist and later, in a different paragraph-section, explain his political and nationalistic feelings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 25 August 2006.

I continue to think this should be [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]], but I don't think an edit war is a useful way to solve this, and it seems that every time I put that, someone reverts me withing 24 hours. Ruedasox, I take it you agree with me, but tell me if I'm wrong, since you are not explicit about that. Would others please weigh in, here, on the talk page, rather than by edit warring? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 19:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, I totally agree with you. An edit war will only bring bad consequences to the wikipedia. If we have a discussion in this section where everybody explain their points of view will help the good development of the encyclopedia rather than if everybody comes and changes the words they don't like and go away. - User:ruedasox

I agree with Jmabel and the unsigned comment above. Catalan nationalism played an important part in Gaudí's life. But Catalonia was a part of Spain, Gaudí was a citizen of Spain, he carried a Spanish passport, he paid taxes to the Spanish authorities, etcetera. He was a Spaniard, and therefore should be referred to as such, alongside Catalonia. I second Jmabel's proposal for referring to Gaudí as a [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]] architect. Aecis ^{Appleknocker Flophouse} 13:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't use Spaniard (which is generally a designation of ethnicity, and a bit archaic). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Weel, Catalonia is not a state. That's true, but is a Nation. And as I said in my previous comment, if you check the Dalai Lama article here in wikipedia, you can't read he is Chinese, because is not, even if Tibet is (legally) a part of China. Right? Using the same rule, Why don't you go there and change it, writting The Dalai Lama was a Chinese spirtual leader from a chinese region? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.107.247 (talk • contribs) 20 September 2006.

Because the Dalai Lama's situation as an exile makes the situation a bit different. I'm not sure what his actual citizenship is; if you happen to know, it should probably be in the article. He certainly does not have a PRC passport. Perhaps he travels on papers from the (unrecognized) Tibetan government in exile? - Jmabel | Talk 04:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This sounds like a political debate. It is true that Gaudi was Catalan. It is true that Gaudi was Spanish (I don't know his "feelings" like others on this forum apparently do). It is true that Gaudi was European. To refer to him as any of these would not be incorrect. My impression is that referring to him as Spanish offends some nationalists, however it doesn't make it incorrect. Furthermore, I agree that he had great pride in his culture (he was actually thrown in jail once for refusing to speak Castillian), however I am unaware of him not recognizing that his culture was one of many within Spain. In fact he had ties to two of the most powerful families in Spain, the Lopez, and the Guell (the latter being Catalan, of course). I believe he was also a monarchist, implying that he had respect for the Spanish state. The political debate should be taken elsewhere, and I believe that reference to him as either Catalan, Spanish, or both should no longer be debated. 130.221.105.69 17:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto

On a similar note... I believe the following statement is too strong and/or not correct "Gaudí, among others, promoted the Catalan nationalist movement by incorporating elements of Catalan culture in his designs." There's no question he incorporated Catalan culture into his designs (the red and gold stripes atop the spire of Bellesguard, the many references to St. George, among many others), however I don't think he was a nationalist per se. The word nationalist to me implies something stronger than pride in your culture, it implies a political message. I have never found any evidence that he was anything other than proud of his heritage. I think the statement should be changed to something like "Gaudi incorporated elements of Catalan culture in his designs (examples)" then a statement could be made about how these designs might be an inspiration to nationalists. 130.221.105.69 18:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto

Gaudi was proud of his culture. He was arrested for speaking Catalan. He did not promote sovereignty of Catalunya from Spain. This is false and should be removed from the article. To the chagrine of many on this forum, he was not only a devout catholic, he was a loyal Spanish subject. There is no evidence to the contrary. We need to stop confusing cultural pride with nationalism (or separatism). --76.167.43.150 15:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC) Alberto

Gaudí was Catalan, never spanish

Gaudí was Catalan, never spanish. During the dictatorship of José Antonio Primo de Rivera he was arrested by the Spanih police because he answered in Catalan to the police. This is just an anecdote of his life, but is very representative to show what I'm trying to say. I know Catalonia is (still) not a state but it hurt my eyes when I read such thing like "the Spanish Catalan architect" or similar. Please if you want to know more you just can go to Antoni Gaudí (in the Catalan wikipedia), translate (with google's "language tools" is quite easy) and read the seccion about "Gaudí and the catalanism". Even in the english wikipedia at Antoni Gaudí#Social and political influences says that "promoted the Catalan movement for regaining sovereignty from Spain [...]"!

I use to edit in the Catalan wikipedia, but what I don't like about it is that the states have write the history. And Spain, wrote our history. In the case of Gaudí, I know that a lot of people don't know what or where is Catalonia and, in consequence, they need an explanation like " X town, Catalonia, Spain" (or simply "X town, Spain), but saying that Gaudí was Spanish has no sense. In one hand, sure there are politics in the english wikipedia which say: that if this guy born in Barcelona, then is Spanish...acording to this has sense, but Gaudí never considered himself Spanish, so its a contradiction and then is when the wikipedia becomes unreliable... and its a pity. Sorry for my English, but I prefer to speak 2 languages perfectly (Catalan and Spanih) and another one not so good, instead of just knowing one. My page on the Catalan wikipedia --Catalaalatac (talk) 17:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Number of siblings

I am aware of Gaudi having had only one sibling, Francisco, d. 1876, yet the article implies he had 4 siblings. Anybody know for sure? 69.167.58.163 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Alberto

The cited source, [6], says (this is verbatim): "Antoni, the couple's fifth child, was to live the longest. His siblings included sisters Rosa (May 5, 1844-1879), who married and had a daughter, Rosa Egea Gaudí, and Maria (June27, 1845-January 10 1850); and brothers Francesc (March 26, 1848-April 20, 1850) and Francesc (May 27, 1851-1876), who earned a Medical degree, but never practiced." - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Shop front

The shop front has gone. It also seemed out of place to mention it in his influences, compared with the large scale of the others. Some small shop, compared with WTC replacements??--137.205.76.74 14:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Later years

In the first paragraph it reads that his attitude changed after his death, as if he continued to work posthumously. Guess, there is a mixup in the sequence. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 14:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment

I've assssed this as B-class. It is really a good article though, and I would encourage the editors of this article to consider bringing it up to Wikipedia:Good Article or Wikipedia:Featured Article standards. Carcharoth 08:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The neutrality of the infobox is disputed

Some users are making changes and reverting edits in order to erase all traces as possible of the real and only nationality of Antoni Gaudi (which was a spaniard) in order to describe him with a regionality (catalonia is a region of Spain).

The users making these changes are of course, of catalan nationalist ideas.

I'm pretty sure readers from Europe will know that if someone is described as catalan, this means he is also spaniard (as the catalan nationality does not exist), but I really doubt people from Australia, Hong Kong or Guam would know this fact.

User Xtv, for example, keeps saying that, Gaudí had explicit problems because of deffending his catalanity. He is pretty well allowed to explain this fact in the article, but that doesn't allow him to ommit is only official citizenship, which was spanish.

Unfortunately for user Xtv, Catalonia is not so well known outside Europe as he wish. So wikipedia has become the "perfect" path to satisfy his political nationalist ego. Pushing his edits to the limits of truth, (Gaudi was from the spanish region of Catalonia, but his nationality was spanish), he will, without remorses, describe him as catalan, "together" with his only, real and official national identity, which is being a spaniard, making us believe Gaudi had a double nationality, which is false.

Fortunately, in late times, wikipedia has become for students and people wishing to learn, a marvellous way to improve their knowledge. If we allow these users to alter articles at their political wish, wikipedia's credibility will suffer from it.

For this reason, waiting an admin to state about this, I'm asking good faith users to revert (explaining the reasons for it in the talk page) these kind of edits from this users, which, while not lying, are, on purpose, leading future readers to mistakes about the real nationality of the gentleman described on this article and about the political status of the spanish region of Catalonia.

Thanks and Cheers! --Maurice27 09:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, good to see you back after admins released you from the indefinite block you earnt due to your personal attacks. It's good also to see that you haven't insulted anybody already.

Unfortunately, you haven't still learnt to respect other political opinions. You are still obsessed with your Anti-Catalanism and this time the poor Antoni Gaudí has to suffer your French-Spanish patriotism!

I'm afraid Antoni Gaudí wouldn't agree you. He was renowned, fined and insulted by Spanish media because of his Catalan nationalism. So it's not strange that Xtv has defined him as he himself did: Catalonian.

Note also that nobody is removing his legal status, Spaniard, but adding further info, in this case, Gaudí's own political point of view.

What you are doing is only erasing info.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 10:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if my "obsession" about keeping the truth in wikipedia is worst than your agreement to include in a infobox, behind the title nationality, the word "catalan".

• Gaudi had no catalan nationality (nobody else does. There is and never was a catalan passport)
• Gaudi had not a double nationality

and what it is worst

• keeping in defending to describe his citizenship as "catalan" even if you don't have any single proof of the existance of a catalan nationality, and wanting to include wrong and false facts, and admiting it publicly will show everybody reading the "veracity" and the null confidence that your edits deserve.

P.S. If the indefinite block was removed, it explains that your accusation of personal attacks are lacking of veracity... just like the rest of your edits...

--Maurice27 13:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

As another proof of my point, here is, again, another revert [7] from Xtv to show how some users are adding false facts on purpose to mistake wikipedia readers. --Maurice27 23:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I just left it as it was before your changes. Now I see (I hadn't noticed) this field changes quite often. I can accept to leave it temporaly as Spanish if you feel better until we find a consensuous, and if we don't find it, we ask once more for mediation. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sean Connery, Daniel Craig, Tom Jones (singer), Desmond Llewelyn, Catherine Zeta-Jones, George Best, Anthony Head, Charlie Chaplin, Aleister Crowley, Cary Elwes, Depeche Mode, Elvis Costello, Graham Chapman, H. G. Wells, John Cleese, J. K. Rowling, Chhime Rigzing, Jampa Tsering, James Adam, Robert Adam and in general also all elements of Category:Scottish architects (among some other hundreds) are considered Scottish, English or Tibetan (for example), without having Scottish, English or Tibetan passport. If you change all of them and you are not reverted, I will accept Gaudi as (only) Spanish (let's remark I already accepted to put both Catalan and Spanish and you didn't want).--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 23:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

NONE, I repeat, NONE... Let's say it again... NONE of these people do have in their infoboxes a line called "nationality" where it says scottish, english or tibetan... NONE.

Why? because that would be a FALSE fact... And people tend not to LIE to other users.

Where does it say that Sean Connery is of Scottish Nationality? NOWHERE

Gaudì, nationality: spaniard

Come on Xtv... make it a harder for me... That was just to easy. --Maurice27 23:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so then let's do as in all this articles and let's delete the field "nationality" in the the infobox. Of course we will also delete all the references about Spain that you introduced in the article, since in the articles above also there are no references of UK or China. This is my deal: you introduce here Spain just after you introduced the British and Chinese nationality to all those people above. If you have no problem, we write that Gaudí was Spanish. Otherwise we do as in all those articles and we say just he is a Catalan architect (in the text) and we say in the infobox just that he was born in Catalonia. Agree?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:English writers and Category:Scottish writers are in... Category:Writers by nationality! Category:Scottish scientists and Category:English scientists... guess it!!! I think you have a lot of work changing nationalities...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

And, btw, without too much efford I found William Ramsay, Alexander Murray (geologist), James Clerk Maxwell, Hugh Falconer all Scottish in their infobox. Another solution I propose (I think you won't accept it neither, it's difficult to negociate with you: you only accept your option) is the one in Hugh Falconer: Citizenship: British. Nationality: Scottish. We can do the same here: Gaudí's Citizenship: Spanish. Nationality: Catalan. Agree?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No I don't don't! Those last articles are wrong! And i'm not a policeman to change them all. But I will keep you from lying in this one.

• Catalan nationality does not exist
• Catalan citizenship does not exist

And that's all! Adding whatsoever close to "catalan" behind the word "nationality" is false and a lie. You are openly admitting you want to add false facts to articles.

Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state. And Catalonia is not one.

Oh... And quit talking about Scotland when explaining your point... The UK is a union of kingdoms. Catalonia was never one

Try it again, it wasn't hard either... --Maurice27 01:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27 said about me: the null confidence that your edits deserve. P.S. If the indefinite block was removed, it explains that your accusation of personal attacks are lacking of veracity... just like the rest of your edits...

Well, that's a personal attack, my friend.

My suggestion about the problem on the infobox would be to do as Xtv said (Citizenship: Spanish. Nationality: Catalan), or simply state the official Spanish and the his willing Catalonian.

Gaudí, as I already said, didn't feel as a Spaniard, he repeated many times he was a Catalan, not a Spaniard, for that he was fined and mistreated by Spanish media. (Not so different to today's attitude of the Spanish patriots and media).

I guess your problem is, as you stated, Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state. And Catalonia is not one.

Let me disagree: A State does NOT mean a Nation. Actually, there are few of them (being Portugal one).

A Nation is a group of people with common traits (language, religion, ethnicity, ...). Catalan nationalism is only based on language, and you should agree that Catalonia has a language, Catalan. So, you shouldn't be amazed that there is a number of people who regard themselves as members of a nation (Catalonia), and not of the (according to them) imposed state, Spain.

Gaudí said he was Catalan, not Spanish. He was fined for speaking in Catalan when it was not allowed. Don't you think we should respect his own political point of view?

So, let me ask, Maurice27, are you able to reach a consensus or do you want your only option to prevail?

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, why not correcting the other articles and just the Catalan-related ones? are you affraid your position will be there also questioned? I have never admited to add any lie: I have the believe (as he had) his nationality was Catalan with Spanish citizenship. I have made a new version in the sense of the new estatute: he was offitialy this even if he felt that. Do you find it better? And no, I don't stop comparing with Scottland, I think it's a perfect analogy. There is no King of Catalonia. And? a kingdom makes a nationality? What about Tibet? And today's France? USA is not a nationality? Was Ireland a nation just the day they got the independence? the day before they didn't exist? Come on, I accept your part of right, try to accept also our part of right, please.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 22:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

---

Xtv, you are starting to denote some paranoid beliefs on how the world runs. To keep in wanting to impose your criteria even after having been proved to be wrong and lacking of any substancial, juridical, legal, metafisical or even political backing to your point is completely discrediting your credibility as a wikipedia editor.

I will post you, for the last time, a description by the Encyclopædia Britannica of the word Nationality:

Nationality: In law, membership in a nation or sovereign state. It is to be distinguished from citizenship (q.v.), a somewhat narrower term that is sometimes used to denote the status of those nationals who have full political privileges.

Encyclopædia Britannica Article ([8])

Knowing perfectly as you do, that Catalonia is not a nation nor a sovereign state, I ask you, again, to erase your edit.

--Maurice27 23:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

From Encyclopaedia Britannica:

<<Nation: People whose common identity creates a psychological bond and a political community.

Their political identity usually comprises such characteristics as a common language, culture, ethnicity, and history. More than one nation may comprise a state, but the terms nation, state, and country are often used interchangeably. A nation-state is a state populated primarily by the people of one nationality.>>

Then: people from Catalonia has a common identity? yes, they are Catalan. Does it create a bond and a polytical community? yes, the AC of Catalonia, with a Parliment. This identity comprises a comon language (yes! catalan), culture (yes! from Sardana to Castellers, Catalan literature, etc...), ethnicity (yes! Catalan people) and history (yes! History of Catalonia). "More than one nation may comprise a state". Oh! so, you were deffending State = Nation, but it seems Britannica, the Encyclopaedia you cited, doesen't. So then Nation (following Britannica) not always equals state. Continue: "But the terms nation, stat and country are often used interchangeably". Exactly: often, not always.

Moreover, you know that the 89% of the Catalan Parliment (120 over 135 diputees) approved an estatute where it said that Catalonia is a nation, so we are talking that 89% of the people representint the Catalan community thinks that Catalonia is a nation.

Now, do I deffend with that that Catalonia is a nation? NO. I don't want to discuss it here because here is not the place and neither you nor I are able to discuss it. You will say that the Spanish government didn't accept this Estatut. So, there are people (89% of the Catalan Parliment) who thinks Catalonia is a nation, there are other (Spanish government) who thinks not.

Therefore, I feel not so free as you do to think I am over and better all this milions of people who think both one or the other thing. I can have my personal feeling, but I know I am not the one who can answer this question (probably the answer or perhaps the question is too ambiguous). Therefore I think you can not say Catalonia is not a nation, and I can not say neither that it is. Therefore, I think the best solution is the one I gave: he had Spanish citizenship but he felt just Catalan. There is no lie. It is included your point of view, he is by law Spanish. It is included mine: he felt just Catalan. What's wrong on it?

Now, to finnish, I would like to ask you 2 things:

• Please, read carefully what I write, it seems you ignore all my literature.
• Moderate your tone. I am giving you my point of view and I am trying to conciliate it in some way with yours. In every of your contributions, however, you have to include some personal attack which I have never done and I think I don't deserve it. (In your last contribution, for example: "your point is completely discrediting your credibility as a wikipedia editor"... I wouldn't like to compare our block register...).

So, I beg you to try to conciliate positions, try to understand other POV, as I try including the Spanish citizenship. Try to think that perhaps you don't have the absolute reason as I don't, and try to accept a middle point as I try to do. I hope we can finally find one concensuous position and I am sure that, if we do, I can not only say neither my POV nor yours. I'm looking forward to hearing your answer. Cheers.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 03:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27 has tagged this article as a Hoax without any explanation on the Talk page. Due to the arguments he is giving here I guess his "hoax" is the sentence "With Spanish citizenship, he felt just Catalan".

I disagree him. That's not a Hoax.

That's the proper explanation, as Xtv and me said above, of Gaudí own's political feeling and point of view: Gaudí DID NOT feel Spanish, but Catalonian.

What's wrong with explaining this? Gaudí was a proud Catalonian:

On September 11, 1924, the police closed Barcelona's churches to prevent a traditional Catalán celebration from taking place. Gaudí protested and was put in jail. He refused to speak Castilian Spanish. (link redacted)

1924 - Gaudí is under arrest September 11 - Catalonian national holyday - to attend in the church of the Just i Pastor Saints to the mass in memory of the Catalonian patriots and to refuse to speak in Castilian (Spanish) language to the police. [9]

In my opinion, by explaining this we are respecting his memory.

By the way, Maurice27, you are not God, you are not the owner of Supreme Truth. We are open to discuss and reach a consensus, that's why we have offered many options for the infobox. What about you? You only want your own POV to prevail...

... And your many derogatory sentences and insults which are not being replied back by us with more insults, not even by the only way you look to understand: Block. So please read twice your comments before posting or learn to debate, you choose.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

All in all, I remove the Hoax tag.

In the source you added you simply said it refused to speak in spanish, not that he refused to be a spaniard. Something that anybody can do... To renounce to its nationality. Why didn't he do it? Your source is useless and not related. The hoax template is back. --Maurice27 18:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In those sources Gaudí's reasons not to feel Spanish are seen.

Telling that Gaudí DID NOT feel Spanish is not a Hoax, it's his opinion.

Since you tagged this article as a "Hoax" without any explanation, could you please tell us what you don't agree and your proposals? Tell us what is a Hoax according to you instead of tagging repeatedly.

Gaudí felt ONLY Catalonian, is that a Hoax?

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 18:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if Gaudí was imprisoned just because he talked in Catalan to a Spanish cop, can you imagine what would had happen to him if he openly said he wasn't Spanish?

Until you argue like an adult... Next! --Maurice27 20:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

One more insult.

When you have no reason left to argue, you only insult.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I came here from AN/I earlier, and asked about the fonts, but I'm looking asat the big problem now, and frankly, it's a stupid problem. Just brign the infobox onto conformity with the thousands of infoboxes that state date and place of birth, date and place of death, and cover his nationality (spainish) and his cultural identity (Castillian) in the article, with citations. If he really was a Castillian separatist, then you should all be able to support that. ThuranX 22:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There you go. I edited the infobox temppalte to make nationality a conditional field, and removed Nationality from here. Now you can cover the issue in the articlespace, and use citations and such to hammer out an acceptable wording. ThuranX 22:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work. Hopefully the incivility and silly edit warring will now stop. The ANI tread seems to have stopped the incivility without the need for further preventive blocking. I'm sure that you can work out a fully sourced NPOV section about what appears to be a notable part of the man's legacy and life. MartinDK 10:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The removal of the line in the infobox seems fine to me. I only wanted the article not to state his nationality to be catalonian, which was a false statement. The article may now explain the point in the general sections, which is what I defended since the beginning. I will also remove the NPOV tag. --Maurice27 15:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I already tried to remove the nationality field, but it was not a conditionally field and I found possibly too disrupting to modify an infobox that is so much used. I find it now a perfect solution. Thank you ThuranX! --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 12:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that two weeks later, my solution has worked well. Now... fonts? ThuranX 03:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hoax

Please read WP:HOAX and then stop tagging the article as a hoax when it is blatantly obvious that the guy did exist. Falsely tagging articles as hoaxes because you disagree with the POV of the wording is futile disruption and will result in administrative action against those who choose to do so. Also, please remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground and all editors are expected to remain civil at all times. Repeated incivility will result in an indef block. I suggest you take this to WP:ANI if you are unable to settle this dispute yourselves. If not then I will do so myself very soon. MartinDK 07:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI#Antoni_Gaudí.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 09:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Font/Typesetting

Why is nothing about the ont bearing his name in here? ThuranX 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Police

After Maurice27's deletion, I googled to find what kind of police did actually arrest Gaudí, but found nothing. Was it local police, Guardia Civil, some other corps? --Error 00:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

He was brought to the Delegación de policía at the Plaça de Regomir, so it was the Spanish Policía Nacional.

By the way, Maurice27 removed the adjective Spanish from my wording of "arrested because of talking in Catalan to the Spanish police" claiming it is POV.

No, it isn't:

Gaudí was not arrested by a Catalan police or a local Barcelona police:

It was a SPANISH police punishing a citizen who dared not to talk in Spanish, but in Catalonia's authoctonous language: CATALAN.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not so sure. Was there a Policía Nacional at that time? I think it was formed in the 1970s from Cuerpo Nacional de Policía + Policía Armada. Guardia de Asalto was founded at the Second Republic as an urban police, but our article does not say who was the urban police in Barcelona in earlier times. --Error 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Error, I thank you the "dubious" tag.

The Plaça de Regomir police station was used until recently by the Policía Nacional, so I guessed it was them who arrested Gaudí. Or, if not them, the police force which would become them later. But the wp:es and wp:en entries have no reference about this isue.

I'll keep researching. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Until no reliable source about the specifical Spanish police force that arrested Gaudí is provided I come back to my first wording "Spanish police". So I erase the Policía Nacional naming.

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 09:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Baroque Modernism

• Gaudi's work is representative of an eccentric modernism that some define as "Baroque Modern Architecture".Wrightwriter (talk) 05:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Erroneous naming?

The title reads "Antoni Plàcid Guillem Gaudí i Cornet - in English sometimes erroneously referred to by the Spanish translation of his name, Antonio Gaudí... What does erroneous mean here? It's the name of the article, the name used throughout the article, and apparently the name he is called. There is no explanation as to what his correct, non-erroneous name is elsewhere in the article, or why English speakers are so wildly mis-informed. I'm going to remove it for now.--Knulclunk (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

it means it is incorrect to call him by the translation of his name, just like it would be nonesense and absurd to call him Anthony it is completely incorrect -and absurd for any informed person- to call him Antonio, therefore it should be stated in the first paragraph... with the hope that misinformed people like you will understand it someday I will also delete de "Spanish Catalan" "concept" which is as absurd as calling a person "French Italian" or "Swedish Norwegian"... nationalities are one thing, political boundaries another, different one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.50.222.9 (talk) 00:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think your analogy with "French Italian" and so on does not work, because Catalonia is not a sovereign state. If you keep there only "Catalan" because you think that was Gaudí's nationality (and it can argued that this is the case according a possible meaning of "nationality"), other editors will change it back again to "Spanish" arguing that this was its true nationality (according to another meaning of the word). And in this way we will never quit the fight. That's why I tought that it was better to keep there "Spanish Catalan" (in this order). Shall I restore it?--Carles Noguera (talk) 10:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

By the same logic, it would be erroneous to refer to Cristoforo Colombo as Cristóbal Colón or Christopher Columbus. Often times names of people or cities are different in different languages, but this is not erroneous, just like it's not erroneous for people to say Basque Country instead of Euskadi in English. I also agree with Carles Noguera that calling someone a Spanish Catalan is not the same thing as calling someone a French Italian, although would it make more sense to call him a Catalan Spaniard (not sure about that one myself)? Kman543210 (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

you're all wrong and your ananlogies are wrong as well: proper names cannot be translated: that's an orthographical error, therefore translating Gaudí's name is, by all means, incorrect, and so it has to be stated in this article. Second, the nationalities in the Spanish state are diverse -officially recognised by the Statute of Catalonia-, therefore the nationality of Gaudí is not Spanish but ONLY Catalan, just like mine and all Catalans living in Catalonia, Basques living in the Basque Country -see, this is different, country and city names CAN be translated, unlike proper names- are ONLY Basques... the fact that we have a Spanish DNI -"identitiy card"- is a fact that can only be iscribed in the realm of bureaucracy and not political and NATIONAL -i.e. cultural- identities. So I'm changing again the "erroneously" and "Spanish" parts, and will do again and again until you people UNDERSTAND -i.e. comprehend- how the linguistic world -a science, by the way- works, and how national identities can be -and have to be- recognised in this planet -at least in the Iberian Peninsula. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.58.175.193 (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why translating names would be considered "erroneous". Happens with royalty, popes, etc. pretty routinely (e.g. "Charlemagne / Karls des Großen" or "Charles V of Spain" / "Carlos V"); certainly happens with others (Confucius vs. - I believe - Kungfutse, nearly all Biblical figures, Brancusi / Brâncuşi, leap to mind offhand). I personally would use the Catalan form of the name, but that's partly because I'm in the tiny sliver of English-speakers who can read Catalan, whereas probably 10% have some facility with Spanish.

On "Spanish Catalan": one is legal citizenship, the latter is ethnic/national identity. Both belong. Wikipedia standards don't allow us to omit the former, but clearly in Gaudí's case it would be absurd to omit the latter. - Jmabel | Talk 18:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

ONLY Popes and Kings' names can be translated. That's a rule that applies both to Catalan and Spanish -I'm not sure about English but I highly doubt that you go around translating names. Gaudí was NOT a Pope. Gaudí was NOT a king. So Antoni is his real and ONLY name. If you want to call him Anthony is just a personal caprice that cannot be accepted in an encyclopedian article -at least a serious one... we all know how this Wiki thing works anyway-. So if Anthony is incorrect so is Antonio. Remember that Spanish and Catalan are two different languages, like French and ITalian. Catalan is not, as some misinformed people think, a dialect of Spanish. Then there's only ONE possible correct way to say his name: Antoni. People, this is science. Linguistics. You just can not break the laws this science provides just because you "feel" that it should be changed, or because "I heard once that...", or "Me thinks whatever". You want this to be serious. You want the Wikipedia not to be considered a bad joke: then you don't question what lingustic science say. And it says the man is called ONLY Antoni, and his name CAN NOT BE TRANSLATED!. Understand it now?

About the Spanish Catalan thing, you can stick to bureaucracy and keep the Spanish part. I'm a Catalan. I will never let people call me Spanish. I have a SPanish DNI -a sort of green card-. I don't really care. I'm above it this, understand? I know what I am. I'm not a Spanish individual. My culture, my language and my nationality are ONLY Catalan. Now if you think Gaudí would let you all call him Spanish you would just feel his fury, just like it happened to the King Alfonso when he met him at the Sagrada Familia. Gaudí was a fiercely independentist -I know Spanish media will omit that part of his biography every now and then-. Call him Spanish is like insulting him. I'm an architect. And Catalan. It is my duty to do justice to my great predecessor, and I will constantly, to the extenuation if its necessary, erase the Spanish part, next day, next month, next year, anytime... His nationality is much above all this ridiculous discussion and it will pretty much devalue the quality of an article that pretends to be serious, rigorous and exemplary. It's all about historical, national, and, if you want even poetical, J U S T I C E. Justice, that is.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.55.194.103 (talk) 17:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no such rule about translating only popes and kings that I know of; in wikipedia, it should be the most commonly used name in the English language sources (Christopher Columbus is neither a pope nor a king). Because there are English language sources that give his name as both Antonio and Antoni, I don't object to the article being under Antoni; however, because there are plenty of English language sources that give his first name as Antonio, the word "erroneously" cannot be placed in the article for this spelling. Let's keep away from opinionated soapboxes like the previous comment and focus on some reliable sources:

• Columbia Encyclopedia [10]: Entry under Antonio Gaudí i Cornet: Spanish architect (no mention of Catalan nationality or Antoni spelling)
• MSN Encarta Encyclopedia [11]: Entry under Antoni: Catalan architect (Antonio Gaudi redirects to page with article on top)
• Encyclopedia Britannica [12]: Main entry under Antoni: At the top it says Spanish architect, main article text states Catalan architect. Antonio Gaudi directs to say see: Antoni Gaudi (Spanish architect)
• American Heritage dictionary [13]: Entry is under Gaudí, Antonio: Spanish architect (no mention of Catalan nationality or Antoni spelling)
• WordNet 3.0 dicionary [14]: Entry under Gaudi, Antonio: Spanish architect (no mention of Catalan nationality or Antoni spelling)
• Random House dictionary [15]: Entry under Gaudí, Antonio: Spanish architect in the Catalan style

Notice that all three of the dictionary entries that I found as well as the Columbia Encyclopedia all have his name spelled Antonio and do not mention him as a Catalan architect, but rather as a Spanish architect. Both MSN Encarta and Britannica encyclopedias have the spelling as Antoni but redirect the Antonio spelling to that article, thereby acknowledging the alternative spelling. Encarta calls him a Catalan architect as well as the text in the Britannica article, but the Britannica article mentions him as a Spanish architect at the top. According to all these sources, both Spanish and Catalan architect is used. Let's keep this discussion to the sources rather than a forum for anything else. Kman543210 (talk) 03:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Spanish-Catalan problem was already long debated above and it was found to be a consensus solution. It's not wrong and includes all information and POV. About translation of names: also in English (except for rare exceptions like Columbus or people from more than ca. 2000 years ago) only Kings and Popes are translated (and recently, sometimes not even them). The problem with Gaudí is that he lived in a dictatorial period in which it was not allowed to register his name in Catalan, and the next francoist dictatorial period spread the Spanish name. However, he was always called Antoni, and since the democracy this name is being widely used again. I think that calling him with the Spanish name just because a political factor is, indeed, calling him erroneously. I don't remember other XX Century name translations, except all those coming from political impositions, like Gaudí or Pablo Casals (would now anybody say "Pablo Gasol" instead of "Pau Gasol"?).--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 10:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, your explanation is correct, but too wordy for the introductory paragraph. Since Spanish Antonio has traditionally been used until recently, it must be included here. Simply saying "erroneously" is both flippant and pejorative. Better to compose a simple footnote along with [3][4] that explains why the Spanish translation was adopted and why the Catalan Antoni is preferred. --Knulclunk (talk) 14:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

So I boldly went ahead and made the footnote. Fell free to correct my notation in a NPOV way if I have any historical errors. It would be great to have a citation explaining the name's history as well, to avoid WP:OR. Thanks! --Knulclunk (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I find the solution great. I would just add one word: "sometimes referred to by the imposed Spanish translation of his name, Antonio Gaudí" to recall in the main text that this translation was not freely chosen (as it is explained in the footnote). If "imposed" sounds too strong (the dictatorial period was too strong, indeed), you can search for a softer alternative. Thank you for your nice solution!--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 08:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Kman543210 you really have no clue what you're talking about -obvious, since you're not even Catalan-... these foreign encyclopedias rely on Spanish provided information, that means: cheap, tergiversed and distorted demagogy, deeply politically charged and in the case of Antoni, directly wrong. Your only reliabel source for information is the Catalan Encyclopedia (look fot it: Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana) where he's called Antoni and nothing else -and where it is clearly stated Antoni's political views, which should be emphasized in this rather poor Wiki article you have here-. SO again I'm doing what's better for the rigorosity of this article. THe Spanish-CAtalan is still a completely absurd definition and I'm changing it again. Pure nonesense for any individual with at least one brain cell in good shape. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.50.209.156 (talk) 09:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Added the term "imposed" as per Xtv. --Knulclunk (talk) 04:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The anon user should realize that his behavior is breaking several Wikipedia policies (mainly because of the lack of civilty and because he is trying to impose his solution without a consensus in this talk page). --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Carles, no siguis ximplet... Consensus on scientific determinations are not debatable. I insist: in Catalan language only Popes and Kings and Queens names can be translated from any language, but proper names cannot be translated. Gaudí's name can not be translated. It's incorrect. And this is not debatable, if you want to question this you have to go the pertinent academies and change the linguistic laws -which are considered science and are not in public debate and people simply CAN NOT QUESTION THEM OR DEBATE ABOUT THEM-.

OK, I might well be ximplet (Catalan for dummy). No discussion about it. But at least I know a few things about wikipedia procedures. I know, for instance, that here we have a discussion about two different issues and we need to seek consensus for both of them, and that will surely not be reached just by shouting more than the others as seem to believe. I kindly invite you to register as a wikipedia user. This would have many benefits: you could try to defend your positions as a respectable user (not in an almost vandalic way, as some users may be tempted to think right now), and you would not be changing from one IP to another and have a fixed personal discussion page where I could explain you some things about how delicate are Catalan-related issues in the English wikipedia and why they need to be addressed in a polite, patient and neutral approach. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Inverted model

The paragraph stating that Gaudí developed "a new method of structural calculation based on a stereostatic model built with cords and small sacks of pellets" is somewhat contradicted by the article on Catenary: "The idea that Gaudi used thread models to solve the nave of the Sagrada Familia is a common misconception" Dragice (talk) 22:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Antoni Gaudí/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

This article does not meet the good article criteria and has too many issues. It has therefore failed its nomination. Issues include but are not limited to:

• Insufficient references:
  • "Early career"
  • Last paragraph of "Later years"
  • A few [citation needed]
  • "Artistic style"
  • "Interests"
  • "Popularity"
  • "Major works"
• "Early career" should be in prose per WP:PROSELINE
• Format references to include publisher and access date per WP:CITE/ES

Once these issues have been resolved, feel free to renominate the article. Thanks! Gary King (talk) 19:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

NPOV (artistic style)

The section "Artistic style" rounds up with a bunch of propaganda-ridden statements. It's pure point-of-view, review rubbish. Can someone with the skills please edit it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.152.226.52 (talk) 12:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Done--Knulclunk (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Headline text

holliiiiiiee meriiiffiieellllllddd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.56.5 (talk) 18:30, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

God's Architect

Referring to the destruction of Gaudi's blueprints for the Sagrada Familia in 1938 the article says

"This has made it very difficult for his workers to complete the cathedral in the fashion Gaudí most likely would have wished. It is for this that Gaudí is known to many as "God's Architect"."

This passage suggests that the title 'God's Architect' is linked to the problems that beset this project, but does not explain how or why. If there is a link (I had always thought the "God's Architect" was merely an acknowledgement of his religious faith) could someone make it more explicit in the article? ANB (talk) 01:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Antoni Gaudi...

Did Antoni Gaudi have children???? If he did How many? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.110.149.8 (talk) 14:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Title of article vs. lead paragraph

The article is titled Antoni Gaudí, but the lead paragraph says that in English he is usually known as Antonio Gaudí. By Wikipedia policy, if the lead paragraph is correct about that, the article title should be changed. (Changing it will automatically create a redirect, so don't worry about people not being able to find it.) Conversely, if the statement in the lead paragraph is wrong, the article title is fine, but the statement should be changed.

Of 6 books in English that I looked him up in at home, 4 do say Antonio, but 2 others -- including the newest, which I mention in case usage has changed -- say Antoni. As to usage in general, I have no idea. The reason I was looking at his article in the first place was to find out what his first name was.

--64.231.232.37 (talk) 05:14, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Material needing re-write

I have removed the following:

Soon after, his closest family and friends began to die. His works slowed to a halt, and his attitude changed.

As written it seemed to imply that the death of "his closest family and friends" was in some way related to his design of the cathedral towers. Soon after what? Did more people die than are mentioned? In what way did his attitude change? And attitude towards what. I don't know enough about Gaudi to re-write this; perhaps someone else could. How about:

"In 1912, soon after he completed the design of the Sagrada Família, his niece Rosa Egea died. A "faithful collaborator", Francesc Berenguer Mestres, died two years later and as a reult of these deaths, Gaudi became reclusive. At this time, work on the Sagrada Família was slowed by an economic recesion and work on La Colonia Güell ceased altogether."

Rjm at sleepers (talk) 06:39, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

This article is woeful

Considering the importances and interest level of the subject, this article is really, really bad.

An American in Barcelona. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.25.197.232 (talk) 21:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Page translation??

Admittedly this article needs more text considering the magnitude of the subject, Gaudí's personal, impressionist style is quite unique and some of the talk page have already bemoaned the neglect of an article which ought to have more information.

I'm all for using the Spanish translation for this page. There are a few literal mistakes which is expected but these can be ironed out by re-phrasing them pretty easily: Google Translation

Opinions? Stevo1000 (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I haven't read it in detail but on the face of it that seems like a good idea. It's going to basically be a copy-editing job so I'll be happy to lend you a hand with that. Barnabypage (talk) 17:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Popular culture section

The Fringe and Batman references seem pretty tangential to me - is anyone going object hugely if I cut them out? Barnabypage (talk) 22:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation work

Thanks to Conversum1 (talk · contribs) for the initial translation work from Spanish. However, there are some problems. I would assume that it was all a machine translation and not hand translation? I haven't looked at the text closely enough to be sure. It will need some copy-editing. Also, in the process of copy-paste, all the references were lost. This is bad. We cannot have such large unreferenced sections in a biography article. Someone needs to go through and rescue the sources from the Spanish Wikipedia source and re-integrate it here. Elizium23 (talk) 20:05, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

RE: Translation work

Conversum now completed the translation of the entire article, the first part contains all the references. I hope it is OK. Thanks

Further to translation work, I'm now copyediting the article fixing the most egregious errors arising from machine translation, broken or misdirected links, Spanglish in general, typos, etc. I don't intend this to be definitive; when I look over the first sections I can see plenty more that needs to be done, but I think that given the heavy traffic this page gets it needs to be made a bit more presentable right away. By the way, the references all seem to be in order so far! AdeMiami (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Progress of correction/proofreading

So, I've now got to the end of the article dealing with the main problems and howlers (thanks to Stevo1000 for finding one I missed). However, I'm leaving the copyedit banner for now, because there's plenty more to do! AdeMiami (talk) 17:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey, it looks great, good work so far. Thanks much. Elizium23 (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Catalan Spanish, Catalan, Spanish...

What is happening with the names in this page? Antoni Gaudi was Catalan, and Catalan is a part of Spain (some Catalan like it, some not), but you can exclude your nation simply because you don't like it. It absurd to see an article of a Catalan where he is only Catalan and other person of the same city in Catalonia that is Spanish.

Every person can have their opinion, their beliefs, their feelings and their nationality, but the Wikipedia like any other encyclopaedia have to tell the reality of that moment, you can evade it, and he was Spanish an also obviously Catalan (without bad intention) I will change it again to Spanish Catalan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Living001 (talk • contribs) 07:50, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Please nominate for GA status

This is a beautiful article and it looks like it would easily pass GA now. Would one of the editors please nominate? I would be happy to review it. Lemurbaby (talk) 16:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Antoni Gaudí/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk · contribs) 19:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• There is a copyright issue with File:Casa mila ag1.jpg - the uploader took the image from a website but has not gone through the process to demonstrate that they first obtained the author's permission to do so. The editors will either need to attempt to obtain this permission from the author (ask me if you don't know how), try to find another image to use here, or remove it. Lemurbaby (talk) 08:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• I propose to replace it with File:Casa Milà (Barcelona) - 5.jpg. There are many other photos of Casa Milà on Commons that can be used. See commons:Category:General views of Casa Milà. Elizium23 (talk) 04:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Good choice; next time feel free to just "be bold" and replace the file Lemurbaby (talk) 11:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Bibliographic information needed for several books in the References section, including: "El gran Gaudí", "Gaudí, la vida d'un visionari", "Ana Mª Férrin, Gaudí, de piedra y fuego", "Gaudí, l'home i l'obra," "Antoni Gaudí" etc etc. All books cited need to have full information in the References section. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Done, thanks to amazon.es for all ISBNs and other bibliographic info.Elizium23 (talk) 05:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• The bibliographic information is not yet complete. Please have a look at this to find the templates needed for the citations, and to get a sense of the information needed to complete them. For example, book citations need the author's full name, book title, publishing date, publishing location, and publisher name. Also, page numbers are not added to the info in the references section, because the works have been cited (sometimes numerous times) in the notes section, where the page numbers are provided for the relevant piece of information. Lemurbaby (talk) 11:13, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

* This looks much better. Thank you! Lemurbaby (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I cannot get the Bergós references to link correctly using {{harv}}. Is it because this book has multiple authors, or the accent in the name? Alternately, there is another cite using a different name, I guess I could use that. Elizium23 (talk) 18:38, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually I'm not sure... I've always avoided the tl|harv myself and just stuck with the "plain" cite templates precisely for that reason. Wish I could be more helpful on this point. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I am finished with reference and bibliography work, so if anyone wants to double-check that everything is in place, that'd be great. Elizium23 (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks great! Lemurbaby (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Please move all book citations to the reference section. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• I took care of this. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Please use templates for all citations. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Well done, thank you. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Please use a tool such as Webcite to archive all the urls in this article. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• I took care of this. Lemurbaby (talk) 19:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Please insert a citation where "citation needed" is indicated. Also, there are large sections of the text where citations are not provided. Please be sure to provide references to allow the reader (and me) to verify the content provided here. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Looks good. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• There are several dead links referenced in this article: "Hyperboloid structures by Gaudi", "Nacen los Premios Gaudí, que librará anualmente la Academia del Cine Catalán" and "Gaudí Center Reus". If you can find an archived version, or an updated link somewhere, please insert it here. Otherwise try to find an alternative source for the information that the linked material provided. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Partly done. #1 and #3 were resolved and relinked. Failed on #2, regarding Gaudí Awards, (and incidentally the sole reference for that article has the same problem). I could not find a reference in any language after scouring several sites and Google. I marked the dead link. Elizium23 (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you Lemurbaby (talk) 11:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Use (in Spanish) etc. to indicate when a citation or source is in a foreign language. Lemurbaby (talk) 09:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• I see you have now opted to use the language parameter in the templates, which works just as well. Thank you. Lemurbaby (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• There is a strong reliance on foreign language sources when much is written about this architect in English. Per WP guidelines, for the English-language wikipedia it is preferred that articles use sources in English to the extent possible. Lemurbaby (talk) 10:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

• Some English translations of books turned up in the library/Amazon searches, and so I used those as preferred references where appropriate. Elizium23 (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Sounds good. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Some of the references need page numbers. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Prose needs some additional polishing (copy edit). Lemurbaby (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
• Two sources we might need to replace: Javi Peláez, El proyecto de hotel gigante de Gaudí en Nueva York (1908), La Aldea Irreductible, 24 July 2009. Accessed 24 July 2009. (blog, not a reliable source); Pere Hereu, Els anys d'aprenentatge de Gaudí (Can't find it in google books etc) - Lemurbaby (talk) 21:19, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The latter turned up as a chapter of Miscellania 2002. I have incorporated it in my reference work. Elizium23 (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• All that's left to for the references section is to find a more reliable source for the Javi Pelaez ref. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Elekhh

Just having a quick look at it:

• does the article really require 16 external links?

• Agreed, I did some pruning. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:23, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• the list of projects at the end could provide a better overview if would indicate the buildings which are WHS listed. Maybe the whole "short-list" should simply be replaced with a link to List of Gaudí buildings (currently not linked from this article!). --Elekhh (talk) 10:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Removed the list as redundant and provided links to the List of Gaudi buildings article instead. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:23, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Prose Comments

• Wikilinks: I find it confusing to have Wikilinks to individual buildings only in the image caption and not in the text

I hopefully addressed this for you with more liberal linking, especially if mentions were far apart in the long article. Elizium23 (talk) 05:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in particular the Works section was lacking links to the buildings described but now is fixed. --Elekhh (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Prose: I think is a bit lengthy to read. With 87kb of prose the guideline also suggests so. More concise style could benefit and maybe some text could be moved to relevant articles about the buildings. Other clarity issues:

• The length will be addressed in the copy edit. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• "nor did he leave behind many any written documents" needs clarification

Images Comments

• At the beginning I found to be too many (11) illustrations of Gaudí. If any of them is not absolutely necessary and could be removed would help the biography section be less image heavy.

• Agreed, I removed some. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• I have the impression that the images of buildings chosen are not always the best quality versions of what we have. For instance File:Parc Güell (12), July 2009.JPG or a cropped version of it could replace File:Cruz cuatro brazos.jpg, and I think we have better versions of Sagrada Familia than the current image
• Hope these comments will help. Some of the points might go beyond GA criteria and were provided solely with the intention of further improving the article. I'll leave it with the GA reviewer to decide which to consider for this review.

In any case is great to see so much improvement over the last weeks! --Elekhh (talk) 10:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'll be combing through the images and removing some, but I'll leave others to replace them by better images since that's not really a requirement of GA so not urgent for now. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Elizium23

• Question: Should we unlink redlinks to personal names, per WP:REDNOT? Unless there are specific examples of people who might have articles, I doubt notability could be established for many of them. Elizium23 (talk) 05:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, let's go ahead and undo redlinks for now. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:38, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• I've removed redlinks to most names of obscure architects, etc. AdeMiami (talk) 09:52, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks AdeMiami. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• I'm also noting that the article has a problem with overlinking. Terms like "beatification" are linked multiple times. We should ideally have links once on the first use in the lead, and once on the first use in the body of the article. Any help with this would be welcome - otherwise I'll try to take care of it this weekend. Lemurbaby (talk) 06:38, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick comments by GreatOrangePumpkin

• Check references 116 and 134

• Good eye. Thank you. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• "Gaudi" or "Gaudí". Be consistent.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 11:22, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks - done. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Reference Comments

• "Art critics in research and teaching positions since 1950 have given the artist a well-deserved position of relevance within 20th-century architecture." sounds dubious and ambiguous (exactly since 1950? "in teaching positions", art critics or architecture critics?, "well-deserved") and is unreferenced.

• Removed. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• "Gaudí also designed urban settings and landscaping". Landscaping yes, but I am not aware of any street or square he would have designed, and no example is given. --Elekhh (talk) 10:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Reworded a bit. Lemurbaby (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Update

• Sorry to have been away from this for a bit... it's been more labor intensive than I expected but I think we're nearly there after the copy edit, which I was hoping someone from the Guild would be willing to take on (no luck!). I've been very busy at work, but I intend to get to this and hopefully have the article passed by Monday. Lemurbaby (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

TO DO:

• Find a more reliable source for the Javi Pelaez ref
• More concise prose
• Fewer/better photos
• Address Elekhh's reference comments above

• Sorry to interfere, but the last time the nominator addressed any of the points above was over ten days ago, and in the meanwhile you have become a main contributor so I suggest requesting a second opinion from an uninvolved reviewer, and let that editor make the closure as deemed appropriate. It is only a suggestion for your consideration. --Elekhh (talk) 04:42, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• That sounds perfectly fair. I'll try to remember to post the request for second opinion after I'm done with the edits. :) Lemurbaby (talk) 05:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

• Well there you have it. I forgot before giving it the pass on the talk page (going slightly out of order). Elekhh, do you want to weigh in? Is it good enough for GA? I think it's getting close to FA at this point and largely exceeds the GA criteria. There is more polishing that could be done to the prose, and I can agree that much of the information about his works could eventually be shifted to the World Heritage article about them, especially if they aren't presented in list format there. But if that were done, it would require expansion of the evolution of his style to represent these various periods, as right now that discussion is intermingled closely with descriptions of his works. So rather than attempt that monstrous task myself, I will do my job as reviewer to recognize that the article meets the GA standards at this point. Lemurbaby (talk) 14:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

• No worries, you did a fine job and I am ok with this standard for GA. Also your summary of how to further improve the article is very good, and probably should be included somewhere at the top of the talk page. Thanks for your great effort! --Elekhh (talk) 23:36, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Lemurbaby, I sent you some WikiLove on your talk page, but I also want to respond here in public, to say thank you very much for your enlightening and patient review work. This is the first time I have significantly contributed to a Good Article and I'm thankful for the pointers and assistance you gave during the process. Elizium23 (talk) 04:59, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Pictures of Gaidí's amazing architecture

Is is possible to have more pictures of his amazing works? Thanks, HolyBaloney (talk) 23:34, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Only if consistent with WP:IG. But you can follow the link to the Gallery on Commons. --Elekhh (talk) 03:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit

Just finished a ce of this nice, long article. Enjoy. Also, the article seemed more focused on his works than on the man. The works descriptions seemed quite exhaustive. I wonder is an article split is warranted. Lfstevens (talk) 01:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

As for article split, surely not. The man would be of no interest apart from his works—just a devout crank. And something similar could be said about most artists, surely. AdeMiami (talk) 08:12, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Modernisme

'Modernisme' is here not used for the French, but is the Catalan spelling and therefore directly relevant to Gaudí's nationality. The Modernisme article says it is otherwise known in English as 'Catalan modernism', so we could trim back the native references here after a first definition. Elizium23 (talk) 20:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Gaudi's Catholic faith

I changed two instances of the use of the word "religion" instead of the more accurate "Catholic faith". Gaudi, as a sincere Catholic, would not find any peace in "religion". The use of the word "religion", without explanation, suggests that he could have been thinking about religion in general, perhaps Buddhism or even Islam. This is obviously not so since Gaudi was a believing Catholic. He was a man of the Catholic faith. It was his Catholic faith that propelled him, not just "religion". There is ample support for this in the section on "Adulthood and professional work". Santamoly (talk) 07:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Catalan

Surely this is unnecessary? It suggests that he had some sort of double identity/dual nationality. You would never write 'British Welsh' or 'French Breton'. I suggest changing it from 'Spanish Catalan' to purely 'Spanish'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cymru123 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

His identity as a Catalan is very important to emphasize, and if it is left solely "Catalan", then it is frequently the target of Spanish nationalists who want to change it outright to solely "Spanish". This is a compromise, it reflects the unique situation, then and now, of Catalonia, it is stable, and the article has been brought to Good Article status with that wording. Elizium23 (talk) 21:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess that sounds like a fair compromise. I hadn't realised there had been disputes about it before, I just thought 'Spanish Catalan' sounded a little odd. The French wikipedia says (approximately) 'Gaudi was a Catalan architect of Spanish nationality/citizenship' which to me, makes it a lot clearer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cymru123 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I quite agree with Cymru's last point. In fact, I have been using this formula myself lately whenever I see edit wars in progress over the issue, for example in Enric Sagnier and Elies Rogent. "Spanish Catalan" is not really English, just a sop to the nationalists of whatever shade! AdeMiami (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure, let's move toward phrasing like Cymru123 suggested. Elizium23 (talk) 15:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Place of birth

Both the Spanish and Catalan wikipedia pages list his place of birth as "Reus or Riudoms" suggesting that there's some sort of ambiguity. Both articles list sources after their claims. Why is the English article so certain that Rues was his place of birth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cymru123 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Have you read the article? The place of his birth is given extensive treatment in the proper location. Reus was chosen for the infobox; this is the place on most of his official identification and the place of his baptism. The infobox is for short, quick facts. It is possible we could make it "Reus or Riudoms", I am not entirely opposed to it. Elizium23 (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Catalan

The accepted compromise version of the lede which has been stable for years is "Spanish Catalan" acknowledging both his country of origin as well as his strongly-identified ethnicity. It is extremely wrong to remove "Catalan" from the description of him in the lede, especially considering that he is described as a proponent of Catalan modernism, why would he be such a proponent unless he considered himself Catalan? Elizium23 (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree using a formula like Spanish born in Catalonia. It is appropiate to emphasyze the catalan origin of Gaudí. As it was said some months ago, the formula Spanish Catalan sounds odd in English. But the template, as such, must have a proper nacionality. Gavanzo (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Then please implement this wording. It is unacceptable in the current form. Elizium23 (talk) 02:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I will use the formula ¨ born in Reus, in the Catalonia region of Spain.¨ It improves and complete the information and it is widely used as a formula to end this kind of conflicts, as shown in Salvador Dalí. Gavanzo (talk) 08:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Catalan and Spanish

Antonio Gaudi was Spanish and Catalan, both. Therefore, whoeve who deletes any of these two references, is doing "vandalism". It is a fact that he was Spanish and Catalan. Ergo, mentioning both is correct and accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Temax (talk • contribs) 08:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Consensus

Per the consensual compromise, the lead should display Spanish Catalan: Talk:Antoni_Gaudí/Archive_1#Spanish_Catalan_2. The reversions being made are in violation of this consensus and violating WP:3RR. Is there any particular reason as to why his article should display Spanish, whilst omitting Catalan, when consensus has suggested both should be included? Given this is a contentious issue that has been raised in the past, I think we ought to discuss before moving ahead with the reversions. James ^{(T • C)} • 10:00pm • 11:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The consensus was agreed with the other user, using the formula Spanish born in the Catalonia region of Spain, used in this article and in Talk:Salvador_Dalí#Born_in_Catalonia , so the consensus was avoiding double adjective origin on these cases. Gavanzo (talk) 11:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

As I agreed in the above quoted talk page, I believe that "Spanish Catalan" is a good compromise and should be acceptable to both sides of the debate. It is acceptable to me. Elizium23 (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 June 2013

The last sentence in the "World Heritage" section is not complete (and I think the quotation marks at the beginning of this sentence are not placed). 91.113.209.82 (talk) 12:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks complete to me. I removed an extraneous <blockquote> tag from the quote. The quotation is already wrapped in {{bquote}} tags. Elizium23 (talk) 18:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Catalan

I can't understand why mentioning that Gaudi is Catalan is considered "vandalism". It is a fact and its Spanish citizienship is intrinsic in being Catalan. If not, the pages of many Scottish (British?) people should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.61.146.58 (talk) 08:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

RE: It's tagged as spanish and catalan to understand cultural mentions. The Catalans are a cultural group formed by the people from, or with origins in, Catalonia who form a historic nationality chiefly located in northern Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.23.151.190 (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Gaudí's name is not Spanish, it is Catalan, whatever your POV, please respect his actual nationality. Elizium23 (talk) 16:22, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

This article was brought to Good Article status with a compromise lede paragraph and now one editor is edit-warring to try and destroy that. I find this in very poor taste especially on a day like today National Day of Catalonia. Elizium23 (talk) 20:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Catalan is no nationality. Catalonia is a region of Spain which does constitute a nationality: Spanish. --LTblb (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Catalonia (English /kætəˈloʊniə/, /kætəˈloʊnjə/; Catalan: Catalunya [kətəˈɫuɲə] or [kataˈluɲa]; Occitan: Catalonha [kataˈluɲɔ]; Spanish: Cataluña [kataˈluɲa]; French: Catalogne) is an autonomous community of Spain, officially recognized as a nationality by the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia.[1] Elizium23 (talk) 21:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

In 1875 there was not even the autonomous community of Catalonia. And today it is not a nationality with a passport, is a regional nationality of Spain.--LTblb (talk) 21:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing in the first sentence of the lead that either states or implies that "Catalan" is a "nationality", much less that "Catalonia" is a "nation". On the contrary, it plainly states 1) that Gaudí's nationality was Spanish and 2) that Catalonia is a region of Spain. AdeMiami (talk) 12:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)