Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven

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Ludwig van Beethoven's religious views was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 November 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Ludwig van Beethoven. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2024[edit]

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A comma should be added after "Despite this" in this sentence

Despite this he continued work on the remaining piano sonatas he had promised to Schlesinger

and should be changed (also, with better grammar) to:

Despite this, he had continued to work on the remaining piano sonatas promised for Schlesinger

LukeTheAwesomePro (talk) 05:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The existing grammar appears correct. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:56, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The comma should still be added at least because it helps to clarify the separation between the introductory phrase "Despite this" and the main clause that follows it. LukeTheAwesomePro (talk) 06:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Such commas are not required in British English, which appears to be the variant in which this article is written. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven's Nationality[edit]

Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, his family was from Mechelen in Brabant, no? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked at his family tree and his father was Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, they don't - see WP:PSTS. Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the Primary source is the rock-solid truth. Secondary sources are just interperations. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes. Aza24 (talk) 20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why, though? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because of Wikipedia's three core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. We summarize what secondary sources say, representing them proportionately; we don't declare absolute truths based on interpretation of primary sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
- The Austrians have completed the feat of turning Beethoven into an Austrian, and Hitler into a German.
  - As quoted in DER SPIEGEL (16 May 1994))

From https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Billy_Wilder 84.158.232.73 (talk) 19:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Error in his name[edit]

I'd like to point out that his name is written Van Beethoven with a capital "V". Also writing his name without the "Van" is a mistake. Van Beethoven was of Flemish origin and his grandfather was organist at the cathedral of Mechelen. In Flemish, "Van" means "from" and is always written with a capital "V", just like Jean-Claude Van Damme who also had Flemish ancestors. Van Beethoven literally means: "From the beetroot farms". Van Beethoven himself wrote his name with a capital "V" and never left out the "Van". The lower case "v" is a late 19th century germanisation of his name (then also often erroneously written "von") and the standalone "Beethoven" is just a modern popular simplification. Peter Vercauteren (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Wikipedia should give the reader correct information as it's an encyclopedia of general knowledge. It's not because he's commonly known as "Beethoven" or because his full name is often erroneously written with a lowercase "v" that Wikipedia should follow popular belief? Peter Vercauteren (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Peter. I wonder could you provide some scholarly sources that support your claim? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Martin! First of all, I'm Flemish myself so I know how we write our names. Secondly, look at Van Beethoven's autograph here on Wikipedia. 😉 Peter Vercauteren (talk) 12:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Peter, but personal nationality or ethnicity is not regarded as WP:RS. The signature looks useful, but might be discounted as WP:PRIMARY. I was wondering if there were any academic sources that make the same argument that you have used here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether his name has ever been subject of a scientific study. But here's his last will and testament, also with a capital "V": https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-heiligenstadt-testament-final-page-signed-in-1802-by-ludwig-van-beethoven-163031790.html Peter Vercauteren (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After doing a bit of research, it does appear that his father Johann had already germanised his autograph to a lowercase "v" (contrary to Ludwig's grandfather Lodewijk Van Beethoven), but for some reason Ludwig reverted to the Flemish spelling with a capital. Peter Vercauteren (talk) 13:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beethoven’s Secret Code[edit]

Do we want to add anything about the notation marks discussed in this article? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting article, but the "secret code" aspect is clearly click-bait nonsense. Nothing I'm reading is exceptionally different enough from standard dynamic markings to warrant inclusion in a general encyclopedic article. Aza24 (talk) 04:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox[edit]

Bonn was part of the Electorate of Cologne at the time of Beethoven's birth. And Vienna was the capital of the Austrian Empire, I see no reason to not put that information on the infobox. It is not as if this was a disputed thing. FCBWanderer (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nor is it a particularly helpful thing. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Every major historical figure in the depths of this encyclopedia has the country of their location, I do not see a reason as to why this should be any different. Nurusa101 (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Für Elise namesake discrepancy[edit]

In the article it is stated in regards to Therese Malfatti that "She is now remembered as the recipient of the piano bagatelle Für Elise.". However, the article for the piece states that "It is not certain who "Elise" was", and discusses in length about the possible identities. Perhaps it should be changed from "the recipient" to "a possible recipient"? Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 19:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This talk page is for discussion about this Beethoven article specifically; these matters should be brought up at the respective articles in question Aza24 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I brought it up here because I think the change should be made here. The other article seems to be pretty confident on the matter, so I think this article should be changed to match that one. Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]