Talk:Che Guevara

Is Marxist Humanism a religion?

Recently an editor attempted to add Marxist Humanism to the info box for Che under the header for religion. The question here is very, very simple, is Marxist Humanism a religion? If it is, then the info box should simply state “Marxist Humanism”, not “None. Marxist Humanism.” If Marxist Humanism is not a religion, then the info box should state simple “None.” When I attempted to remove “None. Marxist Humanism.” (twice), I was accused of edit warring with the admonition that there were three, count ‘em up, three references. But do any of three references offered up by this editor refer to Marxist Humanism as a religion? Just because one can spew forth a gaggle of tangential references about a subject in no way means that any of them are necessary applicable. But in any case it’s irrelevant. Marxist Humanism is not a religion, certainly not in the classical sense (if it is please, please do show me the source), and therefore does not belong in the info box, as info boxes are currently configured. Anyway, as I stated in one of my edit summaries, “Explanations can, and should, be done in the article, not the info box, nicht wahr?” Please do so there. Hammersbach (talk) 05:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't sound like a religion to me. The one source we can all see doesn't exactly call it a religion. It's more a matter of overblown prose. The other two sources are inaccessible to most of us. On the other hand, do we actually have a source confirming "none" as his religion? He would have been raised a Catholic, but if and where that faded away is unclear. Is there really any point to this entry in the Infobox at all? User:HiLo48 05:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Hammersbach, I would dispute your contention that the question is as simple as you state. However, to answer it: No "Marxist humanism" is not a religion. However, it is not listed as Che’s religion, which is listed as "None" and then includes "Marxist Humanist" in parenthesis to add some context to the "none" – as obviously a Marxist humanist would not adhere to any organized religion. Moreover, the previous info box before switched to this state, said "None (atheist)" in parenthesis as a way to assumedly add context to the "none" designation – thus, all I did with the Marxist humanist distinction is get even more specific. I would also dispute your contention that one’s philosophical beliefs are irrelevant to the unfortunately very narrow "religion" info box question. For instance, if someone were Agnostic or Confucian then obviously they would not have a "religion" per se, but it would be helpful for a potential reader to know that the aforementioned ethos’ serve in a similar fashion. As for Che, he was baptized Catholic as a infant, but raised atheist, and in the last 5 years or so of his life (where I would describe him more as an agnostic) he began to take on and espouse many Marxist humanist beliefs – which almost have a quasi-religious connotation because of their idealism, concentration on secular morality, and devotion to self-sacrifice etc. As for references, Michael Löwy has written extensively on Che’s Marxist humanism – particularly in his book - The Marxism of Che Guevara: Philosophy, Economics, Revolutionary Warfare. Peter McLaren has also written about it in his book Che Guevara, Paulo Freire, and the Pedagogy of Revolution. If you read both/either of these texts (as I have) then you would realize that "Religion = None (Marxist humanist)" is the most accurate way to classify Guevara – in an admittedly imperfect info box category.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

There's always the option of not using that "admittedly imperfect info box category" at all, and including much of what you have written above in the article text. Let those readers who really do want to know this stuff find it in the text, rather than see a shallow distortion in the Infobox. (Can anyone tell that I'm not exactly a fan of Infoboxes?) HiLo48 (talk) 06:35, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Citation 139 about the use of atomic war

I have read several postings on the internet that are referring to citation 139 of the Wiki article. Many people who do not like Che Guevara are using this quote from the article and expanding on it dramatically. Here is the quote directly from the Wiki page: "While expounding on the incident later, Guevara reiterated that the cause of socialist liberation against global "imperialist aggression", would ultimately have been worth the possibility of "millions of atomic war victims."[139]" Well, I have the book from that citation, (Guevara, Ernesto; Deutschmann, David (1997). Che Guevara Reader: Writings by Ernesto Che Guevara on Guerrilla Strategy, Politics & Revolution. Ocean Press. ISBN 1875284931.), in my hand and no where on pg.304 or pages near it, does it discuss the possibilities of atomic war. In fact, this section speaks to Cuba getting fair prices in the world market for its sugar. This sentence from the Wiki page should be deleted as it's reference is false. People are expanding on this false citation and combining it with citation 138 over the internet in various articles with statements such as "If the missiles had remained (in Cuba), we would have used them against the very heart of the U.S., including New York City. The victory of Socialism is well worth millions of atomic victims." Stop disinformation and prove your statements with legitimate facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.128.198.118 (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello IP 71, and nice to meet you. According to --> this link via Google books, the passage is indeed on pg 304 of the aforementioned book. Perhaps you have a different edition? Now I don’t doubt your assertion that Che’s ideological foes utilize this passage to present him in a negative light, but he never specifies whether these "millions" would come from Cuba's own missiles ... or from retaliatory "imperialist" atomic aggression by the U.S. upon Cuba/The Soviet Union (thus there are several ways to read the sentence). For instance, the year before on August 8th 1961 during --> his speech to the ministerial meeting of the Inter-American Economic and Social Council (CIES), in Punta del Este, Uruguay - Guevara stated: "Cuba hopes that her children will see a better future, and that victory will not have to be won at the cost of millions of human lives destroyed by the atomic bomb." Moreover, as the current article already states, Che was particularly horrified in 1959 upon visiting Hiroshima, Japan – where the U.S. had in fact detonated an atomic bomb – so it is not clear to what extent he believed the U.S. would be willing to do the same again against Cuba for instance.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello IP 71, and nice to meet you. While I also don't doubt your assertion that Che’s ideological foes utilize this passage to present him in a negative light, I equally have no doubt that Che’s ideological admirers are doing their best to mitigate the damage of such an eye-opening statement. An example of this can be taken from the reply above where two different events are related in an attempt to show Che’s aversion to the nuclear option. But it is important to point out that both these public events occurred before the Cuban Missile Crisis, an event which brought the world to the brink of a nuclear confrontation. Che’s statements after the event shed a bit more light on “whether these ‘millions’ would come from Cuba's own missiles ... or from retaliatory ‘imperialist’ atomic aggression by the U.S. upon Cuba/The Soviet Union…” Sam Russell, a writer for the socialist publication Daily Worker, conducted an interview with Guevara a few weeks after the crisis. In this interview he quotes Che as saying that “if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have been fired.” Of note, while Castro is alleged to have written to Kruschev requesting that the nuclear weapons be used if Cuba was invaded, Che does not offer any such qualifier to his declaration. Russell goes on to say that Che was extremely critical of the “peaceful parliamentary strategy for power” of western communist parties. Russell concluded that Che was “clearly a man of great intelligence, though I thought he was crackers about the way he went on about the missiles.” So we are presented with two different Ches, pre-crisis and post-crisis. Perhaps we should add the salient elements from the Russell interview to the article and let the reader determine where Che believed these "millions of atomic war victims" would come from, victims whose lost lives he felt “the victory of Socialism is well worth”. Hammersbach (talk) 15:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible misquote in the account of Guevara's execution.

In the article: Moments before Guevara was executed he was asked by a Bolivian soldier if he was thinking about his own immortality. "No", he replied, "I'm thinking about the immortality of the revolution."

I lived in Bolivia at the time, and Guevara was quoted in Bolivian newspapers at the time as having replied "...la imortalidad del burro." (burro means donkey, NOT revolution. I remember it well, because I was intrigued by Guevara's statement and asked my father, a US State Dept. Foreign Service Officer stationed in La Paz in 1967, what the quote meant. At the time I was told that "La imortalidad del burro" is a cliche in spanish. 184.4.209.151 (talk) 02:44, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• The source for "revolution" is http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,942333,00.html
• You'll have to dig up the old newspapers and/or scan them and/or find microfilms at libraries - Or see if people on the Spanish Wikipedia have access to them.
• WhisperToMe (talk) 22:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

propaganda

The article reads much like a Communist propaganda piece and is not from a NPOV. --41.151.153.169 (talk) 12:32, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Such criticisms are pretty useless without specifics. What exactly reads like communist propaganda, and what facts (if any) do you think are omitted which warrant inclusion? -R. fiend (talk) 16:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

IP 41, without any specific objections backed up by WP:Reliable sources per our additional policies of WP:Undue & WP:NPOV etc – your drive by denunciation of "communist propaganda" simply appears to be a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I would also recommend you check the search box of archived talk pages up above, to see if perhaps your concerns have already been addressed or discussed in the past and possibly rejected. Now obviously as with most polarizing figures, internet editorials can be located that cast a range of polemical aspersions – but our objective here is to utilize the academic journal articles, mainstream biographies and news sources in order to present the material in as neutral a fashion as possible. Those possessing passionate politically-driven opinions about a subject (from either end of the political spectrum) can usually find this Wiki practice frustrating, as our material won't in their view "accurately" tell the "real story" about the aforementioned hero/freedom fighter-villain/terrorist.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 07:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This information should be a part of the analysis of Che's life. He personally ordered the execution of many of his opponents, and others. Redthoreau - Since you are a Wikipedia "God" of enormous power and influence, and since you have a phD, perhaps you should consider the non-inclusion of information like this as part of 41.151.153.169's criticism that the Wikipedia entry for Che reads like a Communist propaganda piece. 99.113.217.30 (talk) 03:25, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

IP 99, first off nobody here is a "Wikipedia God", I am simply a committed editor of the overall Wiki-project like everybody else. Any "power" I may hold exists only in your imagination, and any "influence" I may wield would only be derived from others appreciation of my attempts to imperfectly uphold Wiki policies. Now to the actual content of your suggestion, I appreciate your specifics and agree that this should be included in the article. However, it doesn't take a "Ph.D." (or divine powers) to have read the article and see in reference --> #103 that we already included the 2005 version of this pdf from the Cuba Archive (via Armando Lago) seen --> here which documented "216 victims". Thus, all you have done here is give us the 2009 updated version from the Cuba Archive which actually decreases Che's "victim" total from the former number of 216 to the new total of 144 (22 in the Sierra Maestra + 17 after Battle of Santa Clara + 105 at La Cabaña). As a result, the article which presently states "with Guevara's jurisdictional death total at La Cabaña ranging from 55 to 164", will now have to be corrected and updated to "55 to 105". Thus, in your attempt to support IP 41's contention that the article reads like "communist propaganda", you have given us a new version of an already utilized source that actually lowers Che's maximum death total by 59 people at La Cabaña and 72 overall (216-144). Now IP 44 might contend that you just made the article read MORE like "communist propaganda", but I won't, because my only concern is for representing the published figures from reliable sources in accordance with Wiki policy.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 16:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Anderson quote

I do think there are two sides to Che, but I do think the quote-box in the "La Cabaña, land reform, and literacy" section by Jon Lee Anderson should be worked into the text. As a lone text-box, I think it gives undue weight to the position that he played a small, judicious role in the judicial and extrajudicial executions there. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:18, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe Anderson's quote gives the impression that Che's role was "small"; in fact he isn't even addressing the size or scope of the executions, but rather the novelty of them under the circumstances and the reasoning behind their usage. Nobody denies the executions took place, but the issue seems to revolve around whether capital punishment was warranted for the condemned. Anderson, who spent five years researching the issue and who has written what most find to be the definitive biography on the subject, is the ideal source (I believe) for a pull-quote on the matter, if anyone would be. The quote format also lets the reader know that this isn't Wikipedia editorially taking the stance, but Anderson himself.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Guevara and "Irish" (Norman aristocrat) ancestry

In the article of his early life, a quote is given where his father talks about supposed "blood of Irish rebels", however this romantic gloss does not match history or facts of Guevara's actual ancestry. Che's "Irish" ancestry is Anglo-Irish and aristocratic (ie - Norman). His ancestor was Patrick Lynch (Argentina), whose family owned Lydican Castle in Galway (his ancestors actually benefited from the confiscation of land from the local Catholic cheiftan). While the concept of his ancestry as some sort of "Gaelic rebel" and famine-lore is popular amongst IRA types, the reality is far more aristocratic. - Rí Lughaid (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Hasta la victoria siempre

Here the article says the English translation is "Until the Everlasting Victory Always", the word everlasting is redundant as there is nothing everlasting in the original Spanish. I think the idea and what he meant is that the revolution/fighting will always go on until victory. I would therefore simply translate as "Always until victory", it doesn't sound as glamorous as the present translation but to me it's truer to what it is said in Spanish. PatrickC (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe "Until the Eternal Victory" would be an accurate (more literal) translation, and have changed it accordingly. Your thoughts?  Redthoreau -- (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I think this expression is nuanced enough and unclear that we may need citations. I found two Google books Always until victory and Always unto victory. We may have to cite these expressions. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:58, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems that "Always until victory" or variations thereof is a common translation: Google results. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:13, 5 March 2012 (UTC)