Talk:Gwydir River

Pronunciation

In Australia the name is pronounced to rhyme with "wider," whereas the Welsh name is pronounced roughly "Gwidd-eer."

I always pronounced it "Gwidd-eer" but then i'm not your average Aussie. PMA 01:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely pronounced to rhyme with "wider" in Canberra. Adam 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The locals pronounce it to rhyme with "wider". AJS0987643210 (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

A recent edit by Koro Neil removed the following text "as /ɡhwˈdˈər/" stating that "Phonetic representation does not yield anything that rhymes with "wider". And does Australian English have [gh] in its phonology? Someone please correct this." I have commenced this discussion here.

1. I'd like to put on record that I'm not an expect in the use of {{IPA-en}} or in languages or phonology. However, as an editor that has lived in parts of the region where the river flows, I am aware of local phonetic pronunciation.
2. I note that Koro Neil has not removed /ɡhwˈdˈər/ in the lead paragraph; making his edit somewhat redundant.
3. I believe that the use of phrases such as to rhyme with "wider" and the Welsh name is pronounced roughly "Gwidd-eer." as unproductive in Wikipedia and that use of the phonetic should be encouraged at all times.
4. I think that the correct use is /ɡhwˈdˈər/.
5. Koro Neil has not observed that the phrasing is /ɡhwˈdˈər/ and not /ɡhwˈdˈər/ or other variants (with the emphasis on the hw as in "why" and not the gh as per above edit).
6. I also note that the article begins through use of the hatnote {{Use Australian English}} creating the premise that all language in the article is in Australian English unless otherwise stated.

Hence, I propose:

1. In the line that contains "..named it after his patron, Lord Gwydir, who took his title from Gwydir Castle in Wales.."; insert after Lord Gwydir (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈɡwɪdˈiː.ər])
2. Remove the phrase "In Australia the name is pronounced to rhyme with "wider," whereas the Welsh name is pronounced roughly "Gwidd-eer.""

Feedback on the proposed course of action is welcome. Rangasyd (talk) 10:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Rangasyd: I picked up the statement that gave a phonological representation of the name as /ɡhwˈdˈər/, followed by a statement that this rhymed with wider. Wider is pronounced /waɪdə(r)/, so a word rhyming with it would need to end with the combination -aɪdə(r). The diphthong is missing, and I am puzzled that you have not addressed this. I am still doubtful that an Australian would aspirate /w/ after /g/, but it was the lack of a vowel that prompted my edit.

You state: #Koro Neil has not observed that the phrasing is /ɡhwˈdˈər/ and not /ɡhwˈdˈər/

Looking at this in the editing box, I can now see the difference between the two. But the two appear identical in published form, as the vertical bar doesn't appear.

You state:

1. I believe that the use of phrases such as to rhyme with "wider" and the Welsh name is pronounced roughly "Gwidd-eer." as unproductive in Wikipedia and that use of the phonetic should be encouraged at all times.

As you begin your statement with I believe rather than citing Wikipedia policy, I feel free to disagree with you, at least in part. I do agree that the use of phonetics should be encouraged, but many readers do not know phonetic notation, and for them, in an article like this, the use of phonetics alone to represent pronunciation would be unproductive.

Cheers Koro Neil (talk) 14:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Koro Neil: thanks for your edits. We both sound so formal :-). For ease of reading, I've laid out the issues numerically:

1. I lieu of stated "I believe...", my point 3. above should have referred to WP:MOSIPA where it is stated that "descriptions (e.g. "rhymes with bath", "rhymes with caught") will be interpreted differently depending on the reader's accent, so caution is advised, and this approach should not be used alone." Further, "...transcriptions based on English spelling ("pronunciation respellings") such as proh-NUN-see-AY-shən (using {{respell}}) may be used, but only in addition to the IPA ({{IPA-en}} or {{IPAc-en}})."
2. Koro Neil contends that the current status quo of /ɡhwˈdˈər/ does not contain a diphthong. I agree.
3. That contains debate to either /ɡwaɪˈdˈər/ as proposed by Koro Neil; or the [corrected] /ɡhwaɪˈdˈər/  – the difference being /w/ versus /hw/. See this list for your own assessment of what you think is appropriate. My preference is for (g)/hw/, gi-why with the gi as in "guy".
4. I raise another issue, being that use of the /ɑe/ sound, in lieu of the /aɪ/ sound may also be a more accurate representation of local pronunciation; as per the listing of Australian vowels, in the column of diphthongs.

That's it for me for now. Feedback is welcome. Rangasyd (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Rangasyd - Your point about variations in pronunciation is well made, and I feel a bit of an idiot for not thinking of it myself. Local pronunciation is not the whole issue, however, though it is the most important part of it. For me as a New Zealander, there is the question of how I should pronounce it in my own form of English. An Australian's pronunciation of "wider" seems to my Kiwi ears to fall somewhere between my own pronunciation of "wider" and something I can best represent as "woider". As a New Zealander it would be natural and right for me to rhyme the name with my own pronunciation of "wider", just as I would expect an American to pronounce the r in a New Zealand place name like Palmerston, even though most New Zealanders don't. Some articles on places do give various pronunciations in phonetic form of the names as pronounced by locals and by speakers of different major variants of English. Here I would plump for both a phonetic rendition and a descriptive one. Koro Neil (talk) 01:53, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Koro Neil: To resolve the matter, I propose that we go with "/ɡhwaɪˈdˈər/ (rhymes with "wider"; pronounced locally as gw-oi-dar)." Yes/No? Rangasyd (talk) 08:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Fork

I have forked a small amount of content regarding wetlands to the new Gwydir Wetlands article. Maias (talk) 05:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

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Etymology

So, this Gamilaraay dictionary[1] has Guwayda as the Yuwaalaraay name of the Gwydir River, with a commentary saying the name is "probably based on guway ("blood"); said to mean 'place or river of red (banks)'". I know that Gamilaraay and its dialects have been undergoing a revitalisation project in the past decades. Perhaps the leaders of the revitalisation project mistakenly assumed that "Gwydir" was an attempt at transcribing an Aboriginal name? -Corsican Warrah (talk to me) 08:44, 16 October 2022 (UTC)