Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Mitch

Mitch with the same meaning is still used in the Westcountry, even amongst my generation. sjc

Is there any particular reason that "mitch," of all the vocabulary available, is the only example included in this artcile? I'm not familliar with the language, but perhaps it could be made clear that this is an example, as opposed to being a particularly important word, which is how it looks now. BarkingDoc

Where does 'mitch' appear in Shakespeare? I put into two complete works searchs & got nada. Alastair Rae

"Marry, this is miching mallecho; it means mischief." (Hamlet, Act III, Scene 2)In this context, it seems to mean just 'mischief'. Rbreen 21:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yoke

I'm no linguist, so I dont know where the following should be added to this article. My parents are Irish, and here are some expressions they use:

the word yoke is sometimes used where the word thing might be used in standard English.
e.g. "what's that yoke for?"

Mind

the word mind is sometimes used for the word remember.
e.g. "I mind when I was a boy"
Mintguy

I've never heard that usage. It is used for "take care/of" - "Mind yourself crossing the street", though I'm not sure that's an exclusively Irish usage. -- Jim Regan 16:20 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

"mind" meaning "take care" is famously English. On the London Underground you continuously hear a recording of "Mind the gap" as you step on or off the train. Hippietrail 06:11, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Article written by a CS student, so it was!

Feck

I can't figure out where to add to this article either, so here goes (should be familiar to British viewers of Father Ted):

  • ye is used for the second person plural
  • feck, means steal, or rather "take without permission", and is used as a euphemism for the word "fuck"

- The word feck does not mean to steal -- OFDM 02:26 Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

I beg to differ: feck absolutely does mean to steal where I come from in Dublin, but connotes minor or petty theft. For example He fecked a bar of chocolate from the shop would be typical but He fecked a million quid from the bank would be contrary to normal usage. --EmmetCaulfield 19:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is definitely a usage of feck meaning to steal, and I believe this is the only one mentioned in the recent Dictionary of Hiberno-English. However feck is also used to mean to throw, i.e. "I fecked an apple over the wall". I haven't been able to detect any particular geographic distribution of these uses, but most people usually hold with one or the other --Ryano 17:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


Lad and Eegit

  • lad is used as a euphemism for penis
  • eejit is a mis-spelled, mis-pronounced version of idiot

- While eejit has the same meaning as idiot this is not an accurate staement of its origin. -- OFDM 02:26 Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

I've also heard it pronounced (in Cavan) with a g (as in golf) as eegit --EmmetCaulfield 19:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eegit is a west wicklow thing (those mountain animals) hugh Kenny is a famous user of it the mis pronounciation thing is just bollox Owwmykneecap 18:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Sound of A in Father

  • The "a" is father is generally pronounced fah ther or fah der rather than faw ther
This is consistent with Shakepearian english: Full fathom five thy father lies. [The Tempest]. The A in fathom and the A in father probably sounded the same for the verse to scan.
  • gobshite means fool
  • Many words also in use in Britain, such as arse for ass, bollocks for testicles, shite for shit

Jimregan 13:46 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)

Contrary to the assumption that "fah ther" is a particularly Irish pronunciation, "faw ther" is a particularly American pronunciation which is not used elsewhere. Hippietrail 06:11, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
According to "The Oxford Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English" (Oxford University Press first published 2001) the American and British pronunciations are the same, except for a long vowel and of course the case of the rhoticity at the very end. -- SS 22:25, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)


no, sorry nobody says fah ther, well other than actors trying the accent, it's faw ther, oh and mother is often pronounced mudder as in udder Owwmykneecap 12:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Most people I know would say something very similar to the word 'fodder' with a slightly longer vowel sound. I've also heard (in Tipperary) a pronunciation somewhere between 'feh der' and 'fey der' Amanita 09:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Light L sound

This USA-ian is baffled by the sentence "Irish English also always uses the "light l" sound." - how about an example? - DavidWBrooks 14:10, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)


The canonical example is "Film" which is pronounced as two syllables, almost fillum. (cf. Rhythm.) In RP english this is a monosyllable, almost fiwm. The w attempts to represent a dark l sound. Also "Bottle" keeps the light l by changing the t to a sound between t and k. Irish children often mispronounce this "bockle" when learning to talk.
I know a lot of people who regard the (admittedly common) pronunciation of film as fillum as an abomination --EmmetCaulfield 19:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In "Esturine" English, "bottle" is a strangled tonsil sound, since the TT and the L are deeply glottalised :)
Cork English, at least with most speakers, knows no other than "light" l. Even before consonsants and at the end of words. This may be due to the lack of the light/dark L distinction in most dialects of Munster Irish. Netzrack.N 12:47, 11 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Present Tense

The present tenses example is wrong. An bhfuil is just the interrogative form of ta. The example I would use is "Tá tú anois" vs "Bíonn tú gach lá" - you are now vs you be every day.

Alastair Rae 15:45, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Crack/Craic (but not cocaine)

Craic (Crack) may well be from Scots and Northern English.

I have removed the reference to "crack" because I believe it not to be derived from Irish ("craic", like "sessiún", is a recent gaelicisation). I think I have seen Jane Austen use "crack" in the sense of lively conversation, and there are usages like "wisecrack" in non-Hiberno English. It is, however, clearly a feature of Hiberno-English, just not of Irish-language origin. BrendanH 09:09, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A writer to The Irish Times some years ago listed its etymology as 'creach', an old word for the cattle raids/plunders back in the day when cattle and not land was calling the shots in Irish political disputes. 193.1.172.138 22:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It could of course be a word from both traditions. In Old Irish, for instance, the word 'ród' exists. And its meaning? Bóthar/Road. Were Ród to be put on signposts as the Irish version people would go ballistic. But in that case they'd be wrong. 193.1.172.138 22:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Why is the title on the craic/crack section given as crack (craic)? Obviously in spoken language it makes no odds, but when written down I've never seen the two spellings as interchangeable. Craic means fun but crack doesn't. I'm aware that crack always used to predominate, but nowadays the -ic spelling seems to. I'm fairly sure this standard is widely applied, so even if "crack" is accepted as an alternate spelling, shouldn't it come second? This would make the heading be Craic (crack), and a note should be added to the effect that the dominance used to be different (although this is dicussed on the page for Craic. 7Munkys 09:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned above, craic is a modern gaelicisation of crack. It does seem that this spelling is becoming predominant, as it helps to distinguish between the two main forms of cra(ck/ic). However, it may also mask the word's most likely origins in Scots and/or English. --Ryano 09:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

After

In my experience of living with Irish expats in the last couple of years, the most stand-out Irishisms I notice are "after" as mentioned, plus "your man" to refer to any specific male person, and "the last day" to mean yesterday. Hippietrail 06:11, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Amn't I after telling you that I'm just after my dinner. I'll go away from you now.193.1.172.166 19:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Amn't I?

Just to make a comment about everyday usage of Irish English that is not yet mentioned here:

The often rhetorical phrase "Amn't I?" is widely used in everyday speech.

It is a contraction of "Am not I?" or "Am I not?" and is generally a used to reinforce a statement of fact or opinion.

-Where have you been? -Doesn't matter, I'm here now anyway, amn't I?

or

-look at me, mammy, I'm really getting tall, amn't I?

In standard English this is usually spoken as "aren't I?"

However note that the use of "aren't I?" is generally particularly grating to Irish ears.

Why this difference exists is unknown (to me) but may be due to the illogicality of placing a singular subject (I) with a plural verb (are).

If this be true, seems like the Irish got this right. "Amn't I" or "ain't I" appears more appropriate than "aren't I". Pædia | talk 15:26, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)

I remember, if I used this contraction as a child, my mother, who was ever-so-slightly Anglo (her family had only been in Ireland since the 16th century), would always correct me with the phrase "an almond is a nut". ;-) Blorg 11:33, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I know it's rather later to contribute to this discussion, but there we are... I don't think that 'aren't I' is quite what people think - a contraction of 'are not I'. Compare shall and shan't. In the latter, the last consonant [l] has been dropped from 'shall' and the vowel lengthened. Much the same happens with will > won't, except the vowel gets altered as well as lengthened. Do the same to 'am not I' and you get something that sounds identical (to non-rhotic speakers) to 'aren't I'. So there we are. garik 22:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Amn't I? (2)

Interestingly, it's also very common in Dublin (mostly in working-class areas) to use "amn't I not?", ie a double negative, instead of "Am I?"

Example: I'm not working tomorrow, amn't I not?

--Attila the Pooh 09:42, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

<Shakes head>. "Dubliners." In theory, there could be entire sections on Dublin and Cork Hiberno-English! Also some Limerick terms, "sham" (mate?), "c'mere I want ya" (in a nasal whine), "I'll bust the head/chops off ya"/"c'mere I'll bust ya", "You lookin' at me?"/"What you lookin' at". Charming Hiberno-English. I'll add it later - or someone else can. Zoney 12:56, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've never heard "amn't I not": admittedly most of my 8 years in Dublin was not spent in working-class areas. It sounds like a childish blunder (i.e. how the rest of the world views "amn't I"). Does this also mean "aren't you not" and "isn't it not" are found? In which case it's a separate subheading. Joestynes
I would say "amn't I not" is fairly rare - "sure I'm not?" or "sure I amn't?" are probably more common in Dublin at least, but I'm not sure if these differ from use in the rest of the world.Amanita

Aren't I? ?????

Agreeing with Paedia, I don't recognise any basis for the statement: ["Aren't I" is considered to be perfectly grammatical in Ireland, however.].

This almost looks like vandalism to me. Is there any disagreement to my removing it? If nothing by 11/4, I'll do so. --Red King 20:33, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the use of the "Amn't I not" double negative. I grew up in a working class Dublin area. The phrase was and is used regularly. Also, check Roddy Doyle's books (The Snapper, The Van, The Commitments) for perfect example of the uses of that and many other phrases in the early 90's. He wrote about the exact area Iived in (and changed the name).

The huge popularity of American (and other) T.V. shows among teens has led to a diversification and more variety in the language used. American, English and other terms now mix fluidly with Hiberno-English terms. I would venture to say that there is increased awareness and usage of other vernaculars but that Hiberno-English (and specifically the Dublin regional dialect) remains as strong as ever. (see: Feckin' Book of Irish Slang by Colin Murphy & Donal O'Dea ISBN 0-86278-829-3)

Irish (English)

True, 'Irish' almost always refers to Irish Gaelic. However, American references Merriam-Webster Online and American Heritage Dictionary (4th ed.) list as Gaelic or English. If Oxford is the authority in Ireland, then we maybe could exclude 'Irish'. Cheers, Pædia | talk 15:16, 2004 Apr 29 (UTC)

The above statement is highly confusing. If you are talking about changing the Word 'Irish' to 'Gaelic' in a dictionary or a wikipedia page you should note that Irish people never use the word Gaelic to refer to the language. The language is called Irish (in English at least) and i wouldn't use references that are inferior to the wikipedia/wikionary and undemocratic.

Agreed - if you want to use the word Gaeilge feel free, though it seems a bit silly since we are not speaking in Irish. The only other word that should be used for the language is Irish. Dave 22:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Them for those

What about a reference to the use of "them" instead of "those"? "Look at them houses over there"

And the use of the word "lamp" to mean look? "Lamp dem houses over dere like." Ok, perhaps lamp is only a Cork thing.

...I suspect you're right. The variety of accents and lingo around Ireland is nothing short of insane. I was down in Kerry recently, and attempted to have a conversation with a local - both of us had quite a hard time understanding one another! I'd have found it no less effort to interpret, were he speaking Irish. Zoney 23:43, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yer man/wan

Yer man (your man) and Yer wan (your one) are used in referring to an individual known by the party being addressed, but not being referred to by name. The nearest equivalents in colloquial English usage would be "whatsisname" and "whatsername".

Or maybe "you know who"? -- SS 15:49, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"You know who" would have a "talking behind their back" connotation. "Whatsisname/whatsername" are more accurate, as like the terms introduced, they merely are used when one doesn't know the name or can't instantly recall it. zoney ♣ talk 14:12, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Yer man" etc would often be used to indicate someone eg. on the other side of the road etc - "yer man there with the green jacket". I don't know if "whatsisname" is used in this context. Possibly in this section should also be "aul' fella" and "aul' wan"; i.e. father and mother ("how's yer aul' fella?")Amanita 11:38, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Both of these examples seem a long stretch. In my (very limited) experience "yer man" is equally used with the name of the person, eg"yer man Sean is just over the road".Fat Red 22:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

While 'yer man' is sometimes used with a name, I'd say more often than not it is used without. Amanita - just to add, few culchies said to me before that aul fella/aul one can refer to husband/wife too.

Page move

Any particular reason for the page move from Hiberno-English to Hiberno-English language? zoney ▓   ▒ talk 12:04, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh has done this to all the "major English dialects" and is discussing it with others who don't agree on his talk page. I don't think I like it myself, after all, all these dialects are not independent languages in themselves but dialects, and so the page titles really don't sit well IMHO. Blorg 12:42, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Whenever

Another peculiarity I've noticed in Northern English is the use of "whenever" instead of "when". In the South "whenever" implies a continuing reaction or emphasis, for instance "Whenever I went out without an umbrella, it always rained". But in the North you hear things like "The roads were safer whenever I was young". --Attila the Pooh 10:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Not just in England. In Northern Ireland, particularly in Antrim you'll hear people say: "I saw him across the street whenever I was just walking down here."

C'Mere to Me

Is this weird usage of "Come here to me" refering to "continue listening to me" or "start listening to me" Ireland only? Don't want to add it without checking... Kiand 13:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also "C'mere I want yeh" in Limerick - though this is more to get someones attention. zoney ♣ talk 15:27, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree C'Mere (come here) is used to get attention, and although they generaly waht to say somthing to you. it doesn't mean 'listen to me'

i dont really agree with "Come here to me" refering to "continue listening to me" or "start listening to me", it just means come here, at which point a person would naturaly start talking. Owwmykneecap 12:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've definitely heard this in the sense of "continue listening to me", often marking a change of topic, in the format: (topic 1), "but come here to me", (topic 2) Amanita 09:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

He turned around and said...

When relating events, to "turn around and" (do s.t.) is a common idiom. It usually seems to indicate that what is about to be related is out of the ordinary, as in "He turned 'round and thumped me!". It is often used to indicate (possibly exaggerated) assertiveness on the part of the speaker, as in "I turned 'round and told him to get lost" --EmmetCaulfield 19:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality?

The page says that there's a neutrality dispute about this entry, but I can't see any discussion of it here. What exactly is the objection in this entry? Is it merely the text about the supposed similarity between working-class accents in Dublin and Liverpool? If so, why doesn't someone simply remove the offending sentences?

--Josiah Rowe, confused Wiki newcomer

I don't know either. As there's no notice on the talk page, I'm removing the tag. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:48, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Rurality

There seem to me to be many things in the article that are asserted to be "rural" that are commmonplace in Dublin. Being a newbie, I'm reluctant to change them --EmmetCaulfield 19:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's kind of complicated. There's the fact that a large amount of Dublin's population are from elsewhere (and indeed often further than Navan, Louth, Kildare or Wicklow). And there's no one type of Dubliner. Common-speak for a Northsider from Ballymun, or someone from Tallaght will differ from D4-speak. Certainly much of the yuppie lah-di-dah Dubliners probably would not use have as many truly Irish colloquial terms.
On the other hand, there are for sure Dublin conventions that you will not hear a Limerickman or Corkonian come out with.
Incidentally, is the Limerick term for runners/trainers here? i.e. "tackies". zoney ♣ talk 10:42, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dubs also have a tendency to label anything from outside dublin as rural (or from "The Regions") even if the area is not rural, eg. Limerick/Galway city. although the article has gotten better I detected some if this prejudice in some of the previous revisions.

Dublininty There are several references to work class dubs, most if not all of these are really said by working class people throughout the whole country. Owwmykneecap 12:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

mathematics: plural or singular?

In the section Preservation of older English usage, User:82.6.178.123 tacks onto the paragraph:

"mathematics" (and maybe other -ics words?) is, in old-fashioned usage, treated as a plural noun, taking a plural verb and substituted with a plural pronoun.
My son thinks mathematics are interesting, and he's good at them.
Not a single person in Ireland would use the above phrase, opting for the abbreviation "maths" and treating it as a singluar [sic] noun.
My son thinks maths is interesting, and he's good at it.

Can we resolve the disagreement and remove the blatant contradiction from the entry? My two cents: As an American, I've always thought of the random pluralization of "obviously" singular nouns to be a generally British and Irish thing: "the football team are playing in the playoffs this year," for example. —ajo, 25 Feb 2005

The "team" example is entirely different, as the plural comes from the fact of substituting "team" for "team members". Generally a group is referred to using plural in English here. zoney ♣ talk 01:58, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ulster exceptionalism

I've deleted the claim that Hiberno-English doesn't appear in Ulster. That is plain daft. However, it is clear that among the significant regional differences on the island, the linguistic contribution of Scots in the northeast is one of the most important. This is clearly acknowledged in the body of the article, but perhaps more examples of northern speech could be added to the article (or to the stub on Ullans). BrendanH 21:30, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

This probably relates to the "c'mere to me" section above

I grew up in Stoke-on-Trent, lived in Sheffield, Colchester and Dublin. I've only ever heard these phrases in Dublin:
"Come here and I'll tell you..."
"Come here while I tell you..."
"Come here 'til I tell you..." etc.

I used to walk up to people when they said this, thinking maybe they were about to whisper something secret, but they never did. This would even be used during phone calls. I presume the meaning is pretty much 'Listen to this...', sometimes 'You won't believe this, but...'. If you've been talking about somebody's unusual/bad behaviour, and someone there has a story or anecdote about them, they'll usually precede it with "come here..." Jenks 19:05, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Now"

Now is often used at the end of sentences or phrases as a semantically empty word, completing an utterance without contributing any apparent meaning. Examples include "Bye now" (= "goodbye"), "There you go now" (= when giving someone something), "Ah now!" (= expressing dismay), "Hold on now" (= "wait a minute"), etc.

Is this really specifically Irish usage? I don't know how universal it is among English speakers, but we certainly have it in the United States. It's not particularly common, but it's not uncommon. Certainly I'd think nothing unusual upon hearing any of the phrases above and I'm entirely unfamiliar with Hiberno-English. Come to think of it, I've heard it enough in British productions, too. What English-speaking dialect doesn't have this usage? - furrykef (Talk at me) 00:39, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

cheerio

Is 'cheerio' not an Hiberno-English way of saying 'goodbye'?--feline1 12:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Doubt it. Though its use has rather died out in England: mainly heard now only in pre-1960 era movie dialogue. --Red King 13:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh well - it's very ubiquitous in Ulster, and I remember local comedian Jimmy Young's TV show (which featured him doing a lot of parody charicatures of Ulster stereotypes) had a wee wumman who always went "Cheerio now" --feline1 14:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree with that. The question for this article, though, is whether it is distinct dialect (Irish or Ulster Scots words or grammar transposed into English), or just a figure of speech that is popular in a particular area. Cheerioo nai! --Red King 19:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cheerio is occasionally used in AustraliaFat Red 22:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Aye

I noticed there's no mention of the common use of "aye" among Irish English-speakers. I propose adding this to the article:


Alternatively, it is common for Irish English-speakers to use the word "aye" as a weak form of "yes" (somewhat akin to "sure" or "yeah").

  • "It's getting late, is it?" "Aye, it is."
  • "Do you like that?" "Aye."

--Matro 08:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Another note on aye, it is restricted to use only in the north of the island, i never encountered a native use it south of Dublin.

I am from Co.Clare living in Co.Kerry and i nor anyone i know uses 'Aye'. It's Purely a northern ireland thing.

As a Sligoman, I'd like to point out that the use of 'Aye' is quite common here. It's not a NI thing, it's more a North Connacht/Ulster thing. --Kgaughan 23:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Definately "north of Ireland" and not Northern Ireland thing. --Kiand 22:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else think it's worth mentioning that this isn't just an Irish thing? I feel that mentioning its use in Scotland and the North of England would put it in its wider context. 86.42.148.123 and 86.42.150.148 seem to think the information is irrelevant or already so well-known to merit inclusion and they may be right, but I still think a mention as small as "(also common in Scotland and the north of England)" would be useful to non-Irish or British readers - I think context is important. I also suspect that to assume the information's already well-known is just Hiberno-Brito-Centricsm (if you'll excuse the ungainly term). garik 13:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Lexicon Section

I wrote this new section. Sorry it's mostly brand names and products and stuff, but I can't think of any other commonly used indigenous words (that aren't derived from Irish) at the moment. I'm sure there's more... OK, just thought of some - "washing the wear" for washing dishes, and "delph" or whatever it is. I'm sure there's loads more - maybe list will eventually be big enough to be moved to a dedicated article at some stage? --Zilog Jones 23:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see a clear distinction between the "Lexicon" section and the "Turns of phrase" section. Perhaps they should be amalgamated? --Ryano 11:59, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I see "Lexicon" as individual words, whereas "Turns of phrase" are a group of words. --Red King 13:13, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Does the lexicon section need to be so extensive? I think that the article is longer than it needs to be. I included a link to Terry Dolan's Hiberno-English Dictionary: would that not suffice?

Two questions: 1. Is cat generally short for catastrophic? In my experience, the latter was used (both in English and Bearlachas) to add emphasis. 2. Should kittle (citeal) be added as a common alternative to kettle straight from the Irish? Donnacha 14:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Candidates for deletion

I think the reference to the RTE Guide should go, to be honest.

So do I. Any defenders? --Red King 18:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
No - I've deleted it. --Ryano 11:56, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the letter T

An anon editor added:

  • 't' is rarely pronounced as a plosive when not at the beginning of a word, instead being a fricative between 's' and 'sh'

Does this ring any bells with anyone? "Water" is "Water" everywhere except the midlands, where it is "Waher" or even "Walker". "West" is "West" everwhere except Mayo and North County Galway, where it is "Wesht". So I don't get it? --Red King 16:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

yeah but in Ballybumbum and similar Antrim-type locations, "water" is pronounced "watter", with "wat" rhyming with "vat", and the rhythm being like "hatter"--feline1 17:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
A "soft T" is certainly characteristic of some accents, and increasingly heard on the TV and radio. Classic example is the pronunciation of the word "British" - often closer to "Brishish". It's something I would associate particular with the DART (Dorsh) and RTÉ (Or-Tschee-Ee) dialects. --Ryano 16:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
As somebody from the northwest, it rings a bell with me. The sound is referred to as a slit-t or tau Gallicum and the sound is technically described as a voiceless alveolar non-sibilant fricative (which is why the description of if being between an 's' and an 'sh' is way off the mark: they're sibilants). It's actually very, very prevalent, and has been subject of several studies and papers, mainly because it's an oddball phone that IPA can't transcribe. It also occurs in Liverpudlian English, which it was brought by Irish immigrants (ref). See the article on Voiceless alveolar fricatives for more details. --Kgaughan 23:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Most words with a t (or two) in the middle, in Dublinese, are pronounced without it (or them) - wa'er, le'er, gu'er. Donnacha 20:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Please add a spelling section

This article is now referenced by Wikipedia Manual of Style as a recommendation for the spelling of Wikipedia articles related to the European Union. Can someone please add a section on spelling to the article right after Pronunciation to address how English is spelled by Irish speakers? I can't do it meself. I'm after bein' a feckin' American lad, amn't I?. --Tysto 13:59, 2005 August 25 (UTC)

A reasonable request. One I came across recently is "rere", the American spelling being “rear”. [1] A Google search shows lots of very respectable sites with this spelling, they are nearly all Irish plus some using Middle-English --ClemMcGann 15:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

To get this started --ClemMcGann 16:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

  • aboo = hurrah!
  • æiry = open air
  • ærach = carefree
  • afeard = afraid
  • agin = at another time, before
  • age = old
  • agradh = term of endearment
  • ahint = behind
  • ail = amiss
  • ax = ask
  • aye = yes
Not sure about this, to be honest. Is the idea of a spelling section to document differences in spelling between Hiberno-English and British English? If so, I'm not aware of very many. The "rere" mentioned above is probably more correctly an archaism. The lists of words above are not really different spellings, more words found in Hiberno-English that are not found in British English (e.g. "aye" is not an alternative spelling of "yes", it's an alternative word for yes). I'm open for correction. --Ryano 16:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

There are instances of words, which are spelt differently in Ireland. If they are real English words then it is usually an archaic spelling. The example is rere. Let us just browse the web. There are many respectable Irish sites with this spelling, but no other sites (?) – other than Middle English. Examples,

(and there are many more) Since some words are spelt differently in Ireland, then the request by User:Tysto is reasonable. --ClemMcGann 21:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not saying it's not a reasonable request, I'm just struggling to come up with some examples other than "rere". --Ryano 09:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Whiskey, has long been recognised. Americans and Scots spell Whisky --ClemMcGann 10:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm, well you could say that we spell whiskey "whiskey" and whisky "whisky" :) --Ryano 12:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps we don't need a spelling section. The Lexicon would suffice. I have just added "delph" and "oxter". I'm a little surprised that they are not part of universal english.
I'm wondering about "ou" or "who" as a pronoun. We can say "who did it" (without a question mark) meaning "he did it" or "she did it" without being specific. The article Gender-neutral pronoun says that "ou" is Middle English meaning "he, she, it, they, and even I." Have you heard the term? Is it safe to add it?--ClemMcGann 13:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Could you give an example of your who without question mark thing? You've really lost me there Dave 01:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

"next" versus "this" for identifying future days and trailing "so"

There should be a mention of the use of next/this to destinguish future points in time. I know it causes great confusion for non-Irish living in Ireland. For example: "Do you want to go this weekend or next weekend?" or "I'll see you next Wednesday not this Wednesday.".

  • I agree - I was discussing this with a friend only yesterday... I think that in Ireland "next" is used very straightforwardly to refer to the next Wednesday (or whatever) we are going to reach, even if that is only a day or two away, whereas in Britain (and America?) "this Wednesday" may be used to refer to the nearest future Wednesday and "next Wednesday" often therefore means the one after that. So on (say) a Monday "next Wednesday" means two days hence in Ireland, but nine days hence in Britain. Am I right? If so, would anyone care to insert something like this into the article? Snalwibma 08:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Not to mention the confusing (for Americans, at least) "Wednesday week"... Makrina 06:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
That causes no confusion for Brits - and is by no means exclusively an Irish usage. Pretty standard European English, I'd say. What is specifically Irish (I think) is "this day week" in place of "a week today". Or is that Scottish as well? Snalwibma 11:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Also I may have missed it in the article but I didn't come across any mention of the use of "so" at the end of sentences. (This baffled an American friend.) E.g. "Bye so", "Let's go so", "That's fine so", "We'll do that so". It's difficult to say what it means; it subtly suggests that some sort of agreement has been reached.

  • Nice point, so. It is so! I'll add it to the article for you, so! Snalwibma 08:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Grand so.
  • Interesting, "so" in this context seems to roughly mean what "ok" would in American English and "ay" in Canadian English.


Another thing I thought about recently was the word "haims" (alternatively spelt "hames" or "haimes") meaning disaster or mess; e.g. "he made a haims of the job". Googling proves that this seems to be an exclusively Irish phase. I can't find any reference to the etymology. A "hame" is part of a horses saddle or something but I can't see any connection to the Irish usage.

It's not part of a saddle, but part of the harness, and is quite easy to make quite a mess of if you don't know what you're doing, hence the origin of the phrase. --Kgaughan 23:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

IPA please

Could someone translate the approximate spellings, such as 'Dja kneww whad I min?', into IPA? —Keenan Pepper 07:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation section is a bit vague as it stands, since most of the IPA characters will be unintelligible to all but academic readers, even if they appear properly in a web browser (this cannot be assumed!)

Gurrier

Could the word "gurrier" (a steet urchin in Dublin idiom) come from the French "guerrier" (warrior), indicating Anglo-Norman or even Huguenot influence? Indeed, perhaps the influence of the Huguenots on Dublin idiom and accent deserves more study. (There is a Huguenot cemetery in central Dublin.)--PeadarMaguidhir 18:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think "gurrier" comes from "out on gur" meaning someone who is hiding - from school or possibly the authorities or even a parent or spouse for instance, and are existing on "gur cakes" which are fruit slices and typicaly Irish.

Langer (pronounced "langarrh)

This word, as used in Cork has been explained above. But in Dublin, it is not so much a rude word as a little boy's word for his penis! See the refrain of the Dublin street ballad, "The Monto": "Langaroo! --PeadarMaguidhir 18:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm in clare it can be used either way and can mean both at the same time.

exactly but these days has become fashionable for a gobshite etc

Whiskey

The etymology of "whiskey" or "whisky" is the irish words "uisce beatha," meaning the water of life. Curiously, in the dialect of Irish spoken in Connemara, County Galway, the word used for whiskey is "fuisce," indicating that the word has reentered the Irish Language via English!--PeadarMaguidhir 18:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

-That may be true, but since "fuisce" contains the word "usice" (water) and adding the letter 'f' to the beginning of words is common in the Irish grammar it is possible that it was originally a contraction of a sentence.

Could you kindly give me one example of adding the letter "f" to the beginnining of a word in the Irish Language, thus creating a sentence contraction.--PeadarMaguidhir 08:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Scallion

Most Americans in at least the Northeast use "scallions" as the only word for what others might refer to as "green onions", "spring onions" or even "multiplier onions". In fact, I didn't know of these other terms in the US until a few years ago; and I'm 34! Of zero Irish heritage, I grew up and lived all over the Greater NYC area including urban New Jersey and downtown Manhattan and not once did I hear anything other than "scallions". However, some people would call scallions "shallots", but then again, they probably had never seen or used the latter since they're a part of French and other cuisines but not American cooking. This last fact also holds true in Quebec where most people don't know what either a shallot or a scallion is and call both "échalote(s)". -- CJ Withers 04:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


Couple

Do both American and British English really use a couple to mean exactly two? Canadian English certainly does not. "A couple" can refer to two people in a relationship, but typically "I had a couple of beer" means "I drank two or three (less likely four or five) beer". "A couple of guys just went by here" doesn't imply exactly two, but like 2 - 5 and in other cases it might be even more "I was doing a couple of clicks over the limit" could easily mean speeding by 10 kilometres an hour. I'm really not sure, just wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone knew WilyD 14:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Certainly the usage in Hiberno-English is that a couple means two, anything more than two is a "few". --Ryano 16:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Not so sure I agree with you, Ryano (i.e. I disagree!). I reckon that in Ireland "a couple" often means three or four. It's certainly striking how precisely it means exactly two in England, and how much looser a concept it is in Ireland. Also, Dolan's Hiberno-English Dictionary says couple means "a few". Snalwibma 19:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I always thought a "couple" means two and "several" means three or four no matter where you are in the world. Mark 13:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, my observation was unscientific in any case, but I will perhaps do some field research over the next few days. Of course, as original research it won't be admissable for WikiPedia, but I'm just curious :) --Ryano 13:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so if we take it as "a given" that a couple means two in HBritish English, can we find a source that it also means two in American English - I'm not sure how to check that. The Wiktionary claims that American English shows some flexibility on the number of things that consitute a couple, with the obvious exception - a couple being two people in a romantic relationship. But who knows how reliable that is? I sure don't. I'm not sure if there's a moral to this rambling story - it just struck me as very strange sounding that American and British English both used couple to mean exactly two, when Hiberno & Canadian English mean "more than one, up to maybe four or five" WilyD 14:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Taking a highly nonscientific and noncitable survey, I found that when asked "If I went to the bar and had a couple beer, how many beer did I have?" all Americans I asked (one) said "Exactly two" but all Canadians said "2 or 3" or "2 to 4". Maybe the claims about American & British English are true. WilyD 13:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I would disagree strongly that British usage means always exactly two. Not at all. The usage of 'couple' always carries a degree of imprecision. 'A couple of beers' means at least two, but quite possibly more. Similarly "I'll be away for a couple of days", "I'll be back in a couple of minutes", "it's a couple of miles down the road" imply at least two, maybe more, but probably less than five, I would say. Colonies Chris 22:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm Canadian; me and my associates all think a couple is exactly two... Miken32 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


The reference to 'couple may be derived from the Irish cúpla' - from my understanding is the cúpla is a word brought into Irish from English. Could anyone provide proof that it is a 'true' Irish word? Dave 00:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It Can Mean Both, Exactly two or a small amount(2-4 maybe). Are you going for a couple of pints does not mean two. Also a Few means both Exactly three and a small amount give us a few rasher sandwhichs(yum yum) and you will prob get 4. basically they have double meanings and you just gotta learn the tells(all very poker) but a simple rule is they are both small amounts but a few is a bit bigger than a couple.Owwmykneecap 19:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Toddle

Someone recently added "Toddle - slang for Football (soccer)" to the lexicon section. Is this true? Never heard it! For the moment I have hidden it with <!- ...-> etc. If anyone knows better, please either make it visible or delete it fully, as appropriate. Snalwibma 15:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of it either. I assume you live somewhere in Ireland. I live in Dublin and here is a list of words I've never heard of, or at least not in the context it claims them in (I frequently visit other parts too; this list isn't exhaustive):
    • Cub
    • Droot
    • Hiace
    • Hoo-er
    • Jaykers
    • Knacker (I've heard it refer to travellers loads of times, just I find way more often than not, it's a THING that's disgusting like "Ah, that's knacker")
    • Mot
    • Nohjis
    • Oxter
    • Rubber - NOT its description, the comment "(not a condom!) (Note to American readers: this is standard British English too)" is just extremely innappropriate for an encycolpaedia.
    • Tackies
    • Scoop
    • Jarred (heard of it, but only thing I've heard recently is locked)
    • Tinker
    • Toddle
    • Topper, pointer
So is it just me? This is also why I nominated it for cleanup (the comments like "(not a condom!) (Note......") I really think anything that is disputed should be removed, or cited in a way that proves COMMON usage. - RedHot 13:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


Have heard of most of those words (apart from droot, tackies and toddle) to be honest. Topper, according to an ex-teacher of mine wasn't so much a pencil parer, rather is praise for someone who's done something well - e.g. "Good man, you're a topper!"

Tinker, according to the aul lad, isn't derived from tin but from comes from the word tinker itself as a verb - travellers often went house to house offering their services for any odd jobs. They were people who 'tinkered' with things - hence the name. It also wasn't originally a derogatory term. Dave 18:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

thats right "if if and an were pots and pans the tinker would be out of bussiness. other names cream crakers or jacobs (as in jacobs cream crackers) which is part of supposed dublin rhyming slang(dont make me laugh)

i have heard all those words bar droot, nohjis(how do you pronounce that?) tackies(is that ment to be trackies?) toddle is more of an english one i think. my dad would say pencil topper, i would say pearer(sp?) different parts of the counrty.... also americans have long had the problem with the word rubber its like aussies and thongs(look it up) and i have never heard anyone say ah thats knacker(just sounds wrong) but more...Ahhh thats gay (which i say myself )Owwmykneecap 19:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Scoops

Removed the phrase 'of Guinness'. Both the words 'scoops' and 'jars' are used irrespective of what people drink. The only reason I can see for mentioning Guinness is to add in an Irish stereotype. Dave 18:19, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Usually, the word "jar" is used in the grammatical singular (Are yeh comin' for a jar?)--which should not obscure the fact that it should be interpreted as a plural noun.--PeadarMaguidhir 18:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

French origins of Cork Slang

love to see discussion on this topic - heres a few points to start with apologies in advance for the inaccuracies - i'm not a linguist / philologist just a Corkman fascinated by this topic

jagging - it means going out with as in seeing or dating and just has to be derived from the french idiom "draguer (les filles)"

blaguard , also blaguarding :- word from my grandparents generation used when referring to a petty criminal or just an unlikeable individual also said to children to admonish bad behaviour ( that was me ) - clearly comes from french word for practical joker -blaggard could langer be a corruption of blaggard ?

also the guttural 'r' sound hear in the lets call it typical Cork Accent is very resemblant of the french -

i'm sure there are more examples . Really want to get to the bottom of how french could have had such an influence on english spoken in Cork

for 'blaggard', see English blackguard


Carribean connection?

"The early English settlement of Ireland occured around the same time as England's settlement of the Carribean colonies, which partially explains why West Indian dialects share some similar phonology with Hiberno-English."

I'd like to see a citation for that. I noticed it myself while talking to people from Cork (thinking they sounded vaguely Jamaican) but is there any sort of scholarly work on the matter? Miken32 20:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the quoted explaination is incorrect. Actually, I'm almost certain it's incorrect. The Carribean colonies were settled at a far later date than the plantations, and even then you have to consider the existence of a rather large English-speaking community along the east coast, stretching from Dublin as far as Waterford, inside and outside of the Pale.
A more likely explaination is that as with Australia, Irish convicts were transported to the Carribean colonies. This article and this one are a wee bit POV, but mostly accurate. Also, take a read of this article on Monserrat Creole. --Kgaughan 00:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, a tale I've heard is that, when the freed American slaves were offered the opportunity to go to the Carribean islands, a lot of Irish went with them (preferring the sun to dreary Boston and New York). A bit of googling through up: [A Short History of the Irish in Jamaica]. As for the dialects, there's definitely a similarity between the Donegal ky for c (car=kyar) sound and the Jamaican variation. Donnacha 22:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronuncation

Are (m)any phonemic differentiations merged in other accents of English and retained in Hiberno-English also retained in Canadian English. Which ones?

  • With some local exceptions (most notably Drogheda and some other eastern towns, whose accent is distinctly non-rhotic), 'r' is pronounced wherever it occurs in the word, making Irish English a generally rhotic dialect.
  • 't' is rarely pronounced as a plosive when not at the beginning of a word, instead being a fricative between 's' and 'sh'
  • The distinction of w [w] and wh [ʍ], as in wine vs whine is preserved.
  • In some varieties, Merger of the vowels in father and bother in Southern Irish English; /fɑːðɚ/ and /bɑːðɚ/.
  • In some varieties /θ/ becomes /th/, and /ð/ and /d/ merge, making thin and tin and then and den near-homonyms, with the pair tin and den employing alveolar pronunciation (as in other varieties of English), while the pair thin and then are distinuished by using dental pronunciations, as in e.g. French. In still other varieties, only /θ/ is hardened to /th/, with /ð/ left unchanged; some dialects of Gaelic pronounce "slender" (palatalized) d as /ðj/.
  • The distinction between /ɔːɹ/ and /oʊɹ/ in horse and hoarse is preserved.
  • The distinction between [ɛɹ]-[ɪɹ]-[ʌɹ] in herd-bird-curd is preserved.
  • "l" is clear wherever it occurs in a word, as in French
  • 'Pure' vowels: "boat", in a traditional accent, is pronounced /boːt/, and cane is pronounced /keːn/
  • The "i" in "night" may be pronounced /ɔɪ/.
  • The "u" in Dublin may be pronounced /ʊ/.
  • In County Cork, some vowel sounds are often altered. An "e" sound becomes an "i" ("well" becomes "will"). Also "Cork" is locally pronounced as /kɑːɹk/.
  • An accent unique to Dublin known as the Dublin 4 intonation (referring to the local postal district) is an urban/suburban middle class feature. This is an oft derided posh dialect that renders words such as 'car' as 'core' and 'far' as 'fore' (START-NORTH merger). Dublin 4 speakers often end a sentence with the rising question 'Do you know what I mean?' contracted and pronounced rapidly as 'Dja kneww whad I min?'
  • Similarly the working-class Dublin accent is a unique urban feature which bears some resemblance to (and is believed to have directly influenced) the blue-collar accents of Manchester and Liverpool in England. This dialect includes phrases such as 'What's the story, Bud?' meaning 'How are you, friend?' pronounced 'Wats de stary bud?' and 'Giddup de yaard' or 'gerrup de yaard' which means 'Get lost!' or 'I disagree.'
  • In some old-fashioned varieties, words spelled with ea and pronounced with [iː] in RP are pronounced with [eː], for example meat, beat.
  • In words where "oo" usually forms an /ʌ/ sound, it may be changed to an /uː/ sound, e.g. book is pronounced "buke".

Myrtone@Hiberno-English.com.au

Grammar derived from Irish

"Various aspects of Irish syntax have influenced Hiberno-English." Has any of this infuence spread as far as Canada? Myrtone@Hiberno-English.com.au

Yes/No do exist in Portuguese

The article states that Irish, similarly to Portuguese, lacks words which directly translate as "yes" or "no". However, "sim" is the translation for "yes" and "não" is the translation for "no", just like "sí" and "no" in Spanish. Is it ok to remove this? augustojd 08:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well i would guess that since you have not found it to be the case, then sure, unless some one would like to refute it. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Snalwibma has already taken care of this. --augustojd 10:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Being a native portuguese speaker, I should add that you we do not use the word 'yes' (sim) to reply to a question. For that we would naturally use the main verb. For instance: "Quer café?" to which the answer would be: "Quero." (lit. "You want coffee?" "I Want."). Aengus br 00:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hiberno-English, Irish English, Anglo-Irish

Hiberno-English is the form of the English language used in Ireland. Hiberno-English is also called Irish English and rarely Anglo-Irish.

I have to disagree with this statement. I live in Ireland but I have never herd the word Hiberno-English used before. Occasionally I would hear Irish-English, but Anglo-Irish is the term most commonly used. Ken 19:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hiberno-English is a common term applied to the form, Encyclopedia of Ireland cites it under this. Irish-English is just a bit confusing and Anglo-Irish is a somewhat outdated term generally applied to literature, society and treaties rather than a modern language. Djegan 19:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree strongly that Hiberno-English is the best term. Consider the standard dictionary, which is Dolan's Dictionary of Hiberno-English. That doesn't mean that people in Ireland use the term - we are more likely to say "Irish English" or "the kind of English we speak here", or indeed just "English". Anglo-Irish is completely different, or at least has very different connotations. It refers rather to the literature in English written in Ireland (Yeats, Joyce, etc), and/or to the "West British" generally protestant (former) "ruling" classes (trying to remain PC here...). I would never consider using "Anglo-Irish" to describe the language, and I don't think others do so either. To my ears (and grammatical sensibilities), "Anglo-Irish" seems to refer to a version of the Irish language, not a version of English. Come to think of it, should the words "and rarely Anglo-Irish" be removed from the beginning of the article? Snalwibma 06:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Disagree. "Irish English" is an established term for the English language as spoken in Ireland. "Hiberno-English" refers more specifically to those features or dialects of Irish English that reflect the influence of the Irish Language (Encyclopedia of Ireland says this). Many terms in Dolan's "Hiberno-English" book are pure Gaelic (some but not all with anglicized spellings). Thus John A Murphy can comment that nobody in Ireland speaks Hiberno-English any more (the remark is disputable, but is not self-contradicting nonsense). "Anglo-Irish" (while it has other senses as Snalwibma indicates) has been used relatedly; the first edition of the OED uses it for Hiberno-English, though the third edition appears to be using "Irish English" e.g. for "crack" (hadn't got "craic" spelling last time I checked the website). The 1960 Thomas Davis lectures (from memory) describes "Anglo-Irish" as the creole spoken by those native speakers of Irish Gaelic, who learned English in adulthood or at hedgeschools; when they reared their children through English these would speak Hiberno-English. This present article should be called "Irish English" so we can talk about Ulster English, Dortspeak, standard vs dialect, cultural cringe, breakfast radio, Americanisms, etc. Maybe there is enough material for a separate Hiberno-English article, but that's not the right name for a more general survey. jnestorius(talk) 12:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Cross with you

Anybody know the etymology of this? The bird was giving out today because she was "cross with me" and it got me to thinking about my time in the States where I always had to explain myself to the poor benighted people when I described somebody as being "cross with...". 193.1.172.166 19:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC) I don't know if Irish is the source or if the Irish version has, in fact, derived from English, but the translation of your sentence is: Bhí sí féin ag tabhairt amach inniu mar go raibh sí crosta liom!--PeadarMaguidhir 19:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt very much if it derives from Irish. It's standard usage everywhere in these isles. Besides which, the origin of the phrase seems straightforward (at least on first glance) - think of 'cross purposes' and cross winds and so on - there's a natural semantic connection with contrariness. Apparently the usage first appears in writing in 1639. The Yanks have just lost it. garik 22:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Táim an-bhuíoch díot a Pheadair (agus Garik). Ní rabhas cinnte mar gheall air ach bhí ionadh orm faoi le blianta. 193.1.172.163 23:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane

Philologists may be interested to note that, since last Sunday (9 July 06), a new phrase has entered Dublin vernacular: "I'll do a zidane on yeh."--PeadarMaguidhir 09:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Zidane, surely? Even with Dublin word-messing, it wouldn't end up "Zadine". --Kiand 22:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are right and I have corrected it; Thanks for your contribution.--PeadarMaguidhir 06:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

'Going on to be a...'

And how about this one? Do they say "he's going on to be a doctor/ teacher etc' in Standard English? If not, what's the source? 193.1.172.163 23:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Pluperfect alternative

There is another alternative to the English pluperfect that's common in Dublin City and possibly elsewhere - simply dropping the word have. Examples - "I done it" (Rinne mé é), "I seen it" (Chonaic mé é). Any objections to this being added? Donnacha 20:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

That's classic English football manager talk "the boy done good". It's just sloppy usage. Why not translate Rinne mé é as "I did it" and Chonaic mé é as "I saw it"? --Red King 23:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
"English football manager", or working class English? Given the influence of Hiberno-English on the working class English spoken in the key cities of London, Manchester and, particularly, Liverpool, who's to say it's "sloppy" usage rather than as I outlined above? Donnacha 15:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There's no reason to translate "rinne" as "done" rather than "did", or "chonaic" as "seen" rather than "saw", so there doesn't seem to be a link between this usage and the Irish language. --Ryano 15:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You've got that completely arse over tit. Hiberno-English is a living language and examples from it are taken from what's actually spoken and then explained in terms of the relationship with Irish. "I done it", "I seen it" (and there's probably other examples I can't think of at the moment). Despite being "incorrect" English, they can be translated to "Rinne mé é" and "Chonaic mé é". Because of the lack of an Irish pluperfect, "Rinne mé é" means both "I did it" and "I have done it" depending on usage. It's quite simple, either a common and persistent element in spoken English in Dublin is just "sloppy usage" or it's a variation on the lack of an Irish equivalent of the English pluperfect that exists in Hiberno-English. Donnacha 16:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I see what you're getting at, but I'm still skeptical about a link to Irish, especially as the usage is associated with Dublin rather than parts of the country where Irish-speaking would have been more prevalent, and the fact that it's not a usage unique to Ireland. What I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to favour the explanation that it derives from the lack of pluperfect in Irish over the explanation that people are simply dropping the word "have" as they do in other countries. In any case, unless we can draw on a source, this would be original research and thus shouldn't be included.
A quick bit of research would show that the phrasing is also to be found in Cork [[2]] and Ulster [[3]]. As for not being unique to Ireland, it is mentioned as a major characteristic of Appalachian English, for example, so I don't see that as grounds for exclusion. It's equally possible that the Hiberno-English phrasing has spread. I take your point on original research, though. Donnacha 13:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I've also heard it in Limerick, for what it's worth. For now, however, I think we need to leave it out on the grounds of original research. --Ryano 13:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, what's the status of something like "tá sé déanta agam"? Is this Béarlachas or proper Irish? If the latter, then this would represent the pluperfect in Irish. --Ryano 22:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
"tá sé déanta agam" is more like perfect. "bhí sé déanta agam" would be pluperfect. jnestorius(talk) 00:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes. I guess we should be talking about "perfect alternative" then, rather than a "pluperfect alternative". --Ryano 13:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
and it's not a pluperfect. It's a past participle form being used as a preterite, which is common in many nonstandard varieties of English. jnestorius(talk) 23:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

sound file

it might be great if there's a sound file of speaking irish english. (maybe reading the article in irish english?) Janviermichelle 15:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


Overheard in Croker today

Two Westmeath guys next to me: 'If they (Westmeath) got a goal they'd take the look off it'. What a lovely turn of phrase. (Westmeath was losing to Dublin by 9 points at the time). El Gringo 20:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Dublin & Cork English

'Hiberno English' is a meaningful, real world term. 'Dublin English' and 'Cork English' are meaningless terms! There are Dublin and Cork phrases and accents, sure, but there are not separate languages or dialects in Dublin or Cork.

This seems like typical Irish parochialism to me. Dublin has to have its own accent, and a token comparison to London. Then Cork has to have an entry because Dublin has an entry. It is claimed that the Dublin "dialect" is completely different from those of other parts of the country. Firstly, there is no such thing as a Dublin dialect: when two people speak a different dialect, such as people from north Germany and the Swiss (German speakers), there are genuine difficulties in understanding each other -- it's not just the difference in accent. Secondly, where is the evidence for this difference? I would argue that the inner city accents of Dublin, Waterford and maybe other places have similarities. Words like 'boy' and 'girl', used in Cork, are certainly not unique to Cork city, being used in almost every sentence in Waterford city.

I mean where does it all end? I'm sure Limerick and Waterford could have sections as well, being industrial centres of long standing, having a ton of local slang. And I'm sure there are towns out there with pretty odd accents and more than a few strange phrases.

I suggest that the Dublin and Cork "English" sections be moved to a separate page on Irish Accents. They have no place on a language or dialect page. Merlante 16:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Cat again

I regularly used the term cat in Dublin, sometimes in English, but particularly in Bearlachas, as an abbreviation of catastrophic - which was sometimes used for emphasis. This would make it less a piece of Hiberno-English and, in fact, the exact opposite (Bearlachas) that's passed back into English. Donnacha 11:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Note on Dublin Irish - given the tendency of most Irish schools to have teachers from all parts of the country, the origin of this could be anywhere. Donnacha 11:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the more I think of it, I remember the pronounciation cyatastrophic, thus reminding me that it was generally Donegal Irish speakers who used it! Donnacha 11:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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